Prepping for the Nova Open: Over compensation?

05/30/2011

24 Comments

 
Just a quick article to get some opinions.  I've long since stated that my Nova Open list is weaker against infantry heavy armies, as I don't have a whole lot in the way of dedicated AI.  Well, at least in the torrent of fire form. 

Well, I got to thinking about it when Stelek and Kirby wrote articles about the subject.  In Kirby's case, he took a pretty good list and lost horribly against a terrible archetype:  footdar.  So it got me thinking.  If I faced my list's real disadvantage, would I be able to beat it?  I know it'd be difficult, but I could win the battle.  However, optimistically, it'd be 50% of the time.  Which isn't great odds. 

I've noticed a trend in lists, and I'm even guilty of it.  It seems that most people are over-compensating for vehicle saturation in their lists.  While that is good if you actually face lots of vehicles, it isn't if you're playing against a highly foot-based infantry army.

So without changing the fundamental list, I looked for ways to deal with the threat of infantry based armies (specifically horde based).  The only real way that I found I could do without losing too much in the list was to change the plasmaguns in the Crusader Squads, to Flamers.

Now, I would lose a little bit of AT firepower, which could be bad against Marine or Guard armies.  But when considering the pros and cons of each, I feel that the Flamers would help cover a deficiency in my list with little loss in effectiveness or changing of tactics.

Because this site is used more as a teaching tool, I would like if you'd give me what you think the pros and cons for each setup (plasma vs flamer) are.  Then tell me which one you'd pick from your objective perspective.  Note:  I know what my list of pros and cons are, but I'm looking forward to seeing how people think.  :D

Anyway, I'm looking forward to seeing what you think about the potential change, then I'll pipe in with my cost/benefit analysis.  But more than anything, I just want your opinions whether or you think it is a change worth making.  ;)
 


Comments

Messanger link
05/30/2011 6:19am

See if I can articulate my thoughts.

Your running razorbacks... so can't drive into a horde, watch them fail miserably at hurting your vehicle, and then getting hit by a flamer from top hatch.

However, I'd still suggest trying flamers. Your vehicles can handle the AT, while your squads are better geared at taking out vehicles with their bolters and marine stats in CC.

I guess the thing to think about is whether the Lascannons still serve a purpose. It is a heavy weapon in a squad better equipped for anti-infantry... but if you go against a predominately mechanised force your four Crusader squads will be useless without the Lascannon for most of the game.

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TKE link
05/30/2011 8:35pm

Hrmm.

Flamers have the ability to put some significant hurt on the things the plasma will often be a positive against (Terminators and the like) while having the additional benefit of killing irritating Stealth'd units, like Telion, or even Eldar Pathfinders, who are inefficient but resilient.

Plasma ignores FnP. That's about all it has going for it...if you feel you can get around it through torrenting though...then swap away.

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TKE link
05/30/2011 8:37pm

Dammit, I screwed up the hyperlink in my name on previous comment. :( lol

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Devjon link
05/30/2011 11:38pm

Well, I'd first consider what your goal with the list is. Basically, your goal is to go first and shoot your opponent off the board (regardless of the number of rounds needed).

The Plasma Guns bring a little Anti-tank to your list but it doesn't bring a lot, just a little insurance in case you miss with the Lascannon or something. They also are deadly against Terminators and their equivalents. The Lascannon already ignores their regular armor but the Plasma Gun provides multiple shots which also do so. Besides that, it is basically a glorified Bolter which can kill you.

Now the Flamer is a little different, it brings virtually no Anti-Tank ability, however it can do more damage to infantry than the rest of the squad combined. It can be compared to a lot of short range Bolters (more or less, depending on how spread the enemy is and what range you're shooting at) and that is a notable flaw in it. To use it (along with your other guns) the enemy has to get close and you either cannot use the Lascannon in the same turn or you will only get a few hits with the Flamer (maybe). But at the same time, you remove the chance to miss which makes up for some of the range issue.

Let's get to how each fits in the list. I am assuming that the Crusader Squads don't get into their transports at the start, but instead mount up only when they need to move onto an objective; there might also be times when it is a better idea to start in your transports but we will ignore those times. The Plasma Guns aren't going to be firing on the first turn, unless you go second and the enemy rushes forward, but neither are the Flamers. The Plasma Guns get used when the enemy is closer and increase you ability against all kinds of different enemies. The Flamers would get used once the enemy is closer and only against Infantry, probably using combined Rapid Fire and Flamers to either annihilate the enemy unit(s) or bring them down to a low enough number so that they can virtually be ignored or finished off when, and if, they assault you (and that's saying something).

The Plasma Gun is more versatile, it is useful against anything except for Heavy Armor and massed, cheap Infantry (such as Orcs, Guard, and Tyranids); it is almost like the epitome of Duality (contesting with the Missile Launcher for that title) and since you aren't trying to assault you don't have to worry about it being Rapid Fire. Compare that to the Flamer, a specialist gun which can't really be used against Vehicles, tough Infantry, or even at range. So, just between the two, the Plasma Gun seems the best.

But you have enough Anti-tank with the rest of your guns (including the Lascannons in the Crusader Squads). When you combine the Flamer with the Lascannon (another Specialized gun: great against Light-Medium Armor and TEq while ineffective against Other Infantry or very Heavy Armor) you benefit from both of those guns' strengths to give the squad greater Duality. If your opponent runs a Vehicle Spam army then he cannot ignore your squads because they have Lascannons; if your opponent runs a Horde army then he cannot ignore your squads because they have Flamers; if your opponent runs a mix (not hybrid, but lots of massed Infantry that use Vehicles. Yes, I mean all Meched Assault armies) then you can bring both the Lascannons and the Flamers on him.

I know that this isn't a list, but it still covers everything. I would go with Flamers (if you couldn't tell). Also, this relies on you not embarking your Crusader Squads except for any needed transportation later in the game.

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Lucion
05/31/2011 8:27am

Why change all plasmas to flamers?

If you've got 4 squads why not go 2 with flamer and las cannon, 2 with plasma and las cannon.

Then again, is 2 flamers going to be enough for a horde army?

With 3 predators in the back with 4 TLLC razors, 10 terminators with dual TH Cml missiles I think the list is heavy on the anti tank.

It might even be worth making 2 of the crusader squads dedicated anti infantry - x2 HB razor, hb heavy weapon and flamer/ or plasma.

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Lucion
05/31/2011 6:41pm

It might cut you short, but if your looking for torrent of fire you could simply use the infantry this way.
Troops:

x4 * Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Heavy bolter. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Heavy bolters and Searchlights. [162]

So your getting x8 heavy bolters now, 4 which are twin linked and your saving 120 points.


Thats enough for a 120point marshal to go with one of the razor backs.
Alternatively you could make a drop pod squad for holding or contesting objectives.



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Devjon link
05/31/2011 7:13pm

@ Lucion

I disagree with those changes. Taking Plasma Guns in the first place is almost automatic, they are worth the 6 points but don't seem to be specifically taken for what they do, only the chance to take special weapons. Switching only some over to Flamers would make Target Priority easier for the opponent, as would making some of the Squads dedicated Anti-Infantry, while also making it difficult to be sure that you have taken enough. Besides that, dedicated Anti-Infantry means that they lack Duality.

But, most importantly, Learoth's Nova list has been designed from the beginning to be an Alpha Strike army. Drop Pods take away from that (except in an entirely Drop Pod list, when they might not) but switching to Flamers doesn't.

However, I think that Marshal Learoth should address the idea of Heavy Bolters instead of something else, either making Heavy Bolter Razorbacks or giving the Crusader Squads Heavy Bolters (note: not both). With a 36" range they can still reliably shoot on turn 1 (more reliably if mounted on the Razorbacks as you get an extra 6" if it is needed), and against a Horde Army the massed high-strength shots are less effective (not so with the Heavy Bolters) while against a Meched army you can use the Heavy Bolters last to thin out dis-embarked Infantry. I would really like to know what Marshal Learoth thinks about it once more people have given their thoughts about the Flamer idea.

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Algesan link
05/31/2011 7:59pm

Hey, IG with everything is good.

1x Canoness (BoSL, Cloak, BP/CCW) (with IG to provide Stubborn Ld 10 from BoSL) [72]

1x Canoness (Cloak, BoSL, Eviscerator, Bolt Pistol) [96]

1x Celestian Retinue (2x Melta, 3x Bolter) w/ Immolator [150]

2x Celestian (VSS, BoSL, 2x Melta, 3x Bolter) w/ Immolator [330]

3x Battle Sisters (VSS, BoSL, 2x Melta, 8x Bolter) [447]

2x Exorcist (EA) [280]

1x IG Platoon Command Squad (AC, Chimera) [95]

2x IG Inf Platoon (AC, Chimera) [230]

5x IG HW Teams (Mortar) (OR 2x w/ Mortar and 2x w/ Missile Launcher) [300]

10 Faith, 3x Chimera, 3x Immolator, 2x Exorcist, 3x AC, 15x Mortar, 12x Melta
2000 total points

IG in corner, Platoon Cmd + Inf squads provide direct fire and bubblewrap for the HW teams (with mortars) who fire indirect and need no LOS. Battle Sister squads steal the Chimeras.

Just for fun, I'm slapping this together although my "Sisters" will be big girls wearing odd-looking, extra bulky power armor in black with white shoulders and a Maltese cross...

Plasmagun vs flamer? Plasmagun all the way. 12" double shot, 24" single shot. Flamer 8" teardrop template. Okay, what is the big deal? Your list isn't built for drive up, jump out of the vehicle (or use the top hatch) and burn stuff up. It is mainly sedentary. The Sisters above could go with heavy flamer/flamer combos and do some butchery with it, but they are designed to be a close dakka assault army with the IG providing the LR firebase.

Flamers for your list would be either worthless as a CC unit pulls up just outside of flamer range to move and assault the next turn OR you have to move forward yourself (maybe losing cover, but definitely losing the HW shot) to get the flamer shot.

There is a reason why I rant about the lack of final protective fire in the game.

That is why I suggested swapping out to get at least a pair of Crusader squads with Missile Launcher/Plasmagun. Look at my comment on your 26 April post.


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Devjon link
05/31/2011 11:03pm

@ Algesan

You're right, the Flamers won't be used to their full capacity. But they allow the squad to fight off enemy Hordes. Assuming that a group of orks comes to attack, the Lascannon and Plasma Gun will likely kill 2 of them. The Flamer (assuming they stopped 8" away and you move up 4") will likely catch 4 of them and kill 2; if you could move a full 6" then you could get more like 6 in the Template, and kill 3. So the Flamer equals, when it does not exceed, the Lascannon and the Plasma Gun.

Of course, if it is a big group of orks or hormagaunts who have Furious Charge (and a large number) then you do not want them charging you at all, which means that with the Plasma Gun all you can do is basically sit there and hope that you kill enough to protect yourself, but with the Flamer you have the option to move, shoot, and charge their now thinned numbers. Charging them would deny their Furious Charge and 1 attack from each of them (which could make up for the kills the Bolter achieved).

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Lucion
06/01/2011 4:55am

Yeah Dev, Flamers kinda suck. This was not the crux of my argument, I just wanted to leave flamers there as an option. Te honest with 8 heavy bolters your going to want plasma to concord with that.


The problem with flamers is you need to get the entire squad close for one shot.

What kind of horde are we talking about here? 30 boys? 20 gargoyles? Is a flamer going to be enough for something that extreme?

8 heavy bolters and 4 plasma.
At 36 inch range it hurts horde.

At 24 inch it hurts even more.

At 12 inch you can rapid fire plasma, bolt guns, and hb from the razors- thats pretty good anti horde for me.

Switching to standard HB's would save alot of points too.
120 points is massive for BT. Its a Marshal, with LC and storm shield?

So we lose pretty much 4 TLLC las cannons. The 4 las cannons in the crusader squads were not doing much anyway since they are doing to be embarking, disembarking.

One gains - massed anti horde, 120 points.

It boils down to this question:

Vs the range of lists one is going to face, what is going to be more useful?

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Lucion
06/01/2011 5:36am

Another way one could do it is make a marshal to lead a terminator squad.

So the 120 points could.. go lose one terminator. Make it a 160 pt marshal. Ouch :)

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Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link
06/01/2011 6:41pm

First off, thanks everyone for your replies! Now that I know where everyone stands, I'll give my "cost analysis" for the flamer/plasmagun debate.

I'll start with the plasmagun. Obviously, the plasmagun is good against lightly armored vehicles and gives me another AT option in the squad to increase the chances of scoring a kill. In addition, it acts as a good Terminator killer. At least if they are not carrying Storm Shields. Unfortunately, pretty much everyone is nowadays. As it has an AP2, MEQ also fears the plasma. As TKE mentioned, they also ignore FNP. This gives it exceptional ability for the unit to eliminate MEQ units that have suddenly appeared on your flanks or in front of you (i.e. Scouts, Loganwing, Bikers).

Unfortunately, it comes with some downsides. The main one is its range. At bolter range, it'll only be effective against vehicles if they drive up close to you. As these units will be deep in your deployment zone, the opportunities for them to fire may end up being limited. Also a problem is the fact that your target will probably have a cover save unless your opponent is an idiot or is right in front of you. So you're actually losing a lot of the benefit of the AP2.

Finally, most players are concerned with the fact that the weapon Gets Hot! Fortunately, this isn't much of a concern. There is only a 16.7% of even suffering from Gets Hot!, but you also get to take your 3+ save against it. Leaving you with a 5.6% chance of dying from each shot. Now, in rapid fire range could be potentially fatal. But 6% chance is nothing to be concerned about in my opinion. But it could come into play at inopportune times, so cannot totally be discounted.

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Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link
06/01/2011 7:00pm

Next up, the flamer. While it doesn't fulfill duality nearly as well as the Plasmagun does as Devjon mentioned, it does have a very specific role that allows the squad itself to fulfill duality. Remember that the unit already has a Lascannon for AT, so if you take a flamer, you gain your AI in addition to your bolters. And if you want to get technical, their transport is also packing AT firepower. Exceptional duality in the unit.

It can potentially get a great number of hits on a mob-infantry unit and destroy a good chunk of that unit in one fell swoop. Cover doesn't save these units, as its a flame template and ignores cover saves. With AP5, it'll burn down most horde units with exceptional ease. It can also put down a decent torrent of hits on MEQ units, which will become comparable to a plasmagun. The weapon allows a huge potential of hits to occur, where a plasmagun will only ever have at max 2 hits. When facing a bunch of cheap, terrible armored things like termagaunts, I'll take the flamer.

The flamer itself requires the unit to get extremely close to the action to be effective. If you're doing this, then the Lascannon isn't being used. However, it should be noted that the flamer is used in emergencies only. The primary goal of the Gunline army is to blast the opponent off the board in an Alpha Strike, not rolling forward to flame them. However, what do you do if facing an entirely foot-based army? If you don't have any vehicles to target, then your lascannons are wasted anyway. If I have some units that are equipped to deal with a potential (but rare) army build, then I won't be unprepared.

As I just mentioned, this requires you to move forward to bring the flamer to bear. Against infanty armies, you'll sit in the Razorback and drive forward until you're close enough to fire. Then you jump out (hopefully in terrain), then flame/fire with your close range weapons. Between the flamer and the bolters, you'll kill a bunch of GEQ miniatures. Or if you're looking to clear an objective in terrain, you can jump out close, move into range with your weapons, then tank shock with your razorback. Provided they don't fall back, they'll be bunched up and primed for a lethal spray of flame.

But there are definitely disadvantages. Just like the Plasmagun, it is limited by range. In this case, we need to be within 8" of an infantry unit to flame. Which puts the Crusader squad in danger if they aren't able to kill what they shoot at. But if you have nothing else, its better to sacrifice an unit if it sets up your potential win.

The flamer also does jack crap against vehicles, so it could be potentially wasted in every game. Then you have to worry about horde infantry players being good with their spacing. If done properly, you can limit the amount of hits significantly it just a couple max. That is why tank shocking is so important.

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Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link
06/01/2011 7:24pm

So which do I pick? I'm not 100% sure yet, but I'm leaning towards the flamer. Why? Because as it stands right now, I have next to no AI weaponry. Its concentrated on my Typhoons and Terminators, with the Land Speeders being easy to knock out. The terminators cannot do everything. If I give my unit a weapon to deal with hordes, I give myself some balance and therefore, an opportunity to win some games.

As for the heavy bolters. On the razorbacks, I cannot do it. They are reliable suppression fire. Those TL-Lascannons hit 87% of the time and have a high strength, allowing it to punch holes in virtually everything. If I take those out, I lose 4 long range AT shots on 4 different units. That is a huge loss in an Alpha Strike list. Taking those TL-Lascannons out directs all of my enemy's AT firepower at the Typhoons and the Predators. Which means they'll be dead. Removing threat from a Razorback only creates more threat on other things in the list, some of which is extremely fragile. I need everything shooting for as long as possible, and failing that, have so many different units packing that AT firepower that I can continue to put out lots of shots if part of my forces are neutralized.

The Crusader squads are in a similar position. They don't provide as reliable a shot, but they still can easily knock AV10-11 out. At least give it the opportunity to provide suppression fire. The Heavy Bolter change gives it much better AI, but I don't need that against MEQ armies (as Missiles and Lascannons kill MEQ pretty well). I cannot dedicate such a significant portion of my force to AI duties when it is ultimately a rare army to face. In the example Devjon gave of killing off the remnants of a disembarked unit, the lascannon will kill .556 MEQ models on average (1 dead) and the heavy bolter will kill .444 (rounds down to 0 dead). The lascannon is still superior there.

Tyranids are the exception, but their Monstrous Creatures (or other T6 stuff) will die quickly to all the Missiles and Lascannons. When they close in, the Terminators and Typhoons will be plenty to take care of business.

I want you to know that I seriously considered the option and I didn't discard it right away. I spent a good hour or more running scenarios and numbers to see if it would be a beneficial change. In the end, I think it takes away too much from the original goal of the list: Alpha Strike my opponent into oblivion. Any distraction from that needs to be removed. :O

The flamers give me a "just in case" with next to no changes in the list. Everything acts just like it did before, except that I'd lose some close to mid-range plasma. Is that something I'll miss if I make the change? Yes, as Loganwing is a common army type. But I'm not sure if I can comfortably play as thin on anti-horde as I currently am. It bugs me.

Oh, and I agree with Devjon. Drop Pods remove units from my list from firing. Everything needs to be shooting on turn one and thereafter (though, I don't always need first turn). I cannot risk not getting an unit until mid/late-game. It affects the amount of firepower I can break to the battle and would seriously alter the archetype of my list.

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Devjon link
06/01/2011 10:30pm

Alright, that does answer all of my concerns about the Heavy Bolter option. I would only go with it on the Razorbacks (as they can address the small range difference through their movement and you get re-rolls on more shots) but that would seem to be the worse place for them (note that I was think 4 Heavy Bolters, not 8). However, for what it's worth, while the Lascannon has a higher average kill than the Heavy Bolter, the Heavy Bolter actually has a higher chance to get at least 1 kill (assuming Cover, MEq the Heavy Bolter has a 38% chance compared to the Lascannon's 28% chance; against Geq it's 62% to 28%).

I think that you will benefit more from the Flamers than from the Plasma Guns. Where the Plasma Guns excel you are already covered (via massed Lascannons and Krak Missiles) whereas you are weak where the Flamer is strong.

Also, a greater anti-Infantry is needed and there are no better ways to improve that aspect in the list without greatly altering it. Even though it may not be a fantastic change, I think it is needed and the best way to meet the need.

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Algesan link
06/02/2011 9:39am

I forget, what does the Ork "WAAAGH!" rule do for them? How many inches of movement to assault? How many "Fleet" 'Nids are there which give them a 13"-18" charge range?

IMO, the majority foot armies you will face come with too many ways to bypass a flamer unless you have a way to deploy it besides dragging it around on foot _and_ without it interfering with your heavy weapons fire.

Which is one reason why I've commented that reducing the number of lascannons in favor of missile launchers helps close that apparent weakness.

OTOH, the inclusion of Typhoons and Cyclones give a nasty long range AI punch and you do have plenty of those. A dual Cyclone squad or a pair of Typhoon Speeders definitely have the capability of mass slaughter of horde formations. Tricky on the coordination side? Yeah, but you already know that.

The Plasmagun gives you a ranged punch that can be relied on for some damage, the Flamer gives you a up close massive damage that might or might not get to be used. I'll point out that my Sisters on foot rather stank at using them, but driving up did the trick.

Before you make the call, let's see what the rest of your army provides you, using your 26 April list.

2x THDC Terminators: 2 "shots" of AT and AI firepower that inside 24" actually makes glancing kills on AV11 viable. No need to change these.

4x TLLC Razorbacks, AT and MC killers, excellent for plinking at Terminators, FNP units, etc.

4x LC/??/3x Bolter squads. All of the advantages of the TLLC Razorbacks with the disadvantage of less accuracy. Plinking capability at 24", decent shooting at 12".

Speeders. Dual use all the way, however, leaning towards ligher AT capability.

AC/LC Predators. Again, AT/MC killers.

So, you have 2 strong (Terms), 3 medium (Speeder) and 4 weak (bolter Crusaders) AI units. Not bad actually IMO. Besides screwing up deployment, I've done well against hordes with a pair of THDC Terminators and three dual Speeder squadrons. In fact my desire to not have to commit lots of fire to remnant squads is a driving reason behind my switch from a full BP/CCW setup for my "normal" Initiates in favor of three bolter armed squads. I'm betting I finally end up with four of five Crusader squads being armed mainly with bolters.

Best bet, try some games with flamers in the mix and see how they go. I just don't think that giving up the range of the plasmagun is worth replacing it for a possibly use of a flamer at short range.

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Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link
06/02/2011 7:25pm

Well, the list is not 100% finalized. Probably won't be until the week before Nova. As it stands, I have the models to run either the plasmaguns or flamers. Its simply a matter of painting them. So I can go either way at this point. Either way has their pros and cons, its just deciding which way I'm going to go. Its very close.

@ Algesan

The Orc "Waagh!" thing is essentially an "extra" run that grants fleet. For the Tyranids, the only ones that I'll likely have to worry about having fleet are Genestealers and Raveners. And the Genestealers will likely be Infiltrating or Outflanking, so they'll be in my face ASAP. Prime flame opportunity, especially when they'll want to assault and get everything into combat. They will therefore, be somewhat clumped. I'd much rather flame the shit out of one of those units before I get charged.

I also have to comment on the fact that I won't be walking my flamer to where its applicable, unless the enemy is already on my doorstep. I'll be riding in the Razorback, going to where I need to go and jumping out. Once there, another vehicle will tank shock my opponent into a nice little clump and I can come in with the flamer so I can claim a large amount of hits. Alternatively, I can just sit in the transport while I'm tank shocking away, as horde infantry usually don't have a reliable method of breaching armor.

The point of the flamer is to give me an option against the extreme armies. Not the hybrid armies that you'll see with Tyranids with Monstrous Creatures and mobs of troops. Or semi-mechanized IG. Those aren't what I'm trying to shore up my defenses against. Its the pure horde-infantry armies that I'm worried about. The Green Tide (Orcs), Nid Swarm, IG blobs, or even large massed units of Chaos Daemons. Those are what I'm concerned about. :D

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Algesan link
06/03/2011 11:01am

One reason why I suggested some missile launchers among your Crusader squads to get you a few more templates for AI work. True, it will cost you one Strength and one AP point, but it does give you the templates. All of the methods you give will still work to bunch them up for max casualties.

I'm just too familiar with getting off a few long range bolter shots before that average 15" movement slams into me on the charge. One reason I mechanized before I knew mech was cool. The Rhino still got popped, but I got to flame, RF bolter and then charge in (so as not to eat their charge).

Oh, and if I could buy a flamer to go with my melta, I might do it over a power fist, but if I could buy a heavy flamer, I'd definitely do it.

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Lucion
06/03/2011 3:54pm

Thanks for thinking about the heavy bolters. In my opinion, and not my experience; I still dont think having those heavy bolters would detract from the list. I say that because there are a fair share of BT gunline armies which appear without so many las cannons.

Infact are any of the recently successful tournament Space marine lists sporting so many las cannons or totally dependent on alpha strike?



Now I've been reading the Grimaldus book, and I feel some of the zeal and gloom may come through in the incoming texts, with entirely pure intentions.

Las/Plas is a successful formula. Its proven, tested, repeated.
Las/Flamer appears a last minute change of plan, which appears influenced by reading extremely rare cases.

The main justification for flamers seems to be a last chance shot, and one which puts the unit at the point of no return.

The templar army is a shooty one. Using a flamer puts the infantry (which are undermanned and not meant to get in CC) at risks, and at odds they cannot come up against.

The troops are not 4/2, as recommended at 2k points level. There are 4 grossly undermanned squads in 4 grossly over priced transports, and suggesting you then give those units flamers just isnt cohesive. Its puts risky units more at risk.

Infact, should your infantry be getting into cc and using flamers as a last resort, something is horribly wrong indeed.

If your going to give them flamers, switch the las cannons to heavy bolters and with the 40 extra points change to accept any challenge, and give the squad close combat weapons.

The terminators will at least be able to provide some cc support then, instead of having 500 points invested into 500 points of inefficient power fists.

This will at least give your units a fighting chance in the insuring assault, instead of being armed with a las cannon and flamer and bolters who attack once, an inglorious waste of a 100 point unit.

Las/flam : Two weapons which are at indefinitely different ranges have no alignment, its too extreme if your against a real Ork horde, the flamers will merely spit into a ocean, the list isnt designed this way.

In terms of dealing with hordes:
One would be better of relying on razor back positioning, either in triangles or squares, against an incoming horde, rather than hoping a flamer will save the day on open ground.

If you've only got 5 guys inside, which is under manned, Such tactics should be used with razor backs to block enemy movement, block charging. Leaving a one inch space kind of thing. Or Doing something like "oh I am flaming you but you CANT charge me, you MUST charge the razor back first. At least you will save time then and not die instantly in the incoming assault.

This = rather than 5 men in the middle of a battle field with a flamer vs genestealers, a green tide, or whatever else , 60 cadians. Come on.

In conclusion: In preparation for Nova I dont think the flamer or plasma change is going to change much, I think some battle reports vs other people who are going to nova is going to help more than point changes that represent less than 2% of the armies points.




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Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link
06/03/2011 5:31pm

@ Algesan

I forgot to mention why I wasn't taking missile launchers on the Crusader squads. I would consider doing so if I had melta in the list. Because I don't, I need a huge amount of Lascannons firing to put down the possible AV14 vehicle or three. However slight a chance, my odds improve with more of them. A missile launcher doesn't hurt AV14 beyond glances. :/

@ Lucion

Ah, yes. The underestimation. ;) I am very good at marginalizing the strength of horde armies, or infantry in general. Some of which by techniques you described. Mostly because I haven't had a good source of anti-infantry in my list for some time. I'm not all about wasting precious troops, but sometimes you have to (bubblewrap/speedbumps). I know how to get the most of my stuff, but giving me one last ditch option is kind of nice.

The flamer question is my putting my thoughts out for ya'll to see, and get some opinions while I'm at it. I'm not sure what I'm going to do yet, as I'm going to playtest it. Its a simple matter to paint up 4 more guys if I need to. Doesn't change my list any, as they are both 6 points a pop.

As for the 4+2 "suggestion", that is for armies that are built around that style. The 4+2 is based around 4 advance units, with 2 backfield mobile backfield units to protect your deployment zone. My army is not built around this concept, nor is it a true-MSU list. It uses small units, but its not spread across the force organization chart. There simply isn't enough points. 5-man units are pretty standard size though.

Also, the 15 points more for the Razorbacks is paid for by having 20 point cheaper Typhoons. To be honest, I don't think Razorbacks are expensive at all. Everyone is just jaded because the newer Marine codices got a discount. :)

@ Everyone

While I may not have "invented" the BT Gunline, I certainly had a large hand in making it semi-popular. I've been quite outspoken when it comes to the strength of the list and people are starting to see I'm right.

I'm all about optimization. I know how each of my lists play (and BT lists in general), as I've used them hundreds of times. Because of this experience, I can afford to nit-pick little things in a list. Often, I'll make changes in a list based on how it "feels" and that comes largely from my experience in knowing what works. Given enough time, every player will learn to do the same.

However, that doesn't mean players don't want to make their own tweaks to it. This usually comes in the form of "fluffy" allowances or building lists based on what is in their local metagame. There is nothing wrong with that, its just different styles of list building. I build for the national/international Grand Tournament scene and that requires extreme efficiency. :D

Moral of the story, I have learned that having more of one thing increases the chances of it doing what you want it to do. And that is why I have so many Lascannons/Missiles on so many different units. Against highly mechanized lists, I need to be able to kill 3-5 vehicles a turn. Any lower amount of long range AT and I cannot reliably do that.

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Lucion
06/03/2011 6:03pm

Hey Marshal its your list and its built on what you have learned.

Going las and flamer though.. wouldnt a rhino simply be better because of the hatches? You would really be a pain to horde armies then.. and you'd save 160 points.

Was just reading a kirby list :)

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Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link
06/03/2011 6:23pm

Aye, the Rhino would definitely be better for the flamer. But, I need the guns on the razorbacks. :D

I'm not fond of the Las/Flamer in a rhino setup that some players are starting to use. I, however, DO like the MM bunker. If you're going to go midfield anyway, you might as well use two weapons that help you there (MM and Flamer/Meltagun). ;)

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Algesan link
06/04/2011 6:58am

"Feel" is also what works for you. If you were running your CC mech list, I'd be all over going flamer over plasma. It also works in other ways...

I don't worry about AV14 as much as some, first because it is less common on the board, which means it doesn't benefit from armor saturation, so I can focus more fire on it (or not if I get lucky). Second, I just go for suppression, first turn, as long as it doesn't shoot, it can move if it wants to (EA). Odds against it? Sure, but since it takes about seven Rhinos (Codex) or five Rhinos (BT) away for each Land Raider on the board I can put more firepower down on it if need be.

That is why if you put a gun to my head and told me to play with your list but allowed me to change one thing, I'd convert one Crusader in Lazorback to a pair of Crusaders with ML/Pg on foot.

-1 TLLC, -1 LC, +2 ML, +1 Pg, +1 scoring unit, +1 48" shot.

Of course, since you aren't starting embarked for a rush, you can choose in the late game whether to embark a LC or a ML squad.

3 TL-Lascannons, 9 normal Lascannons, 16 Missile Launchers (8 Tank-Hunter), 3 Autocannons, 5 Plasmaguns, and 3 Heavy Bolters.

versus

4 TL-Lascannons, 10 normal Lascannons, 14 Missile Launchers (8 Tank-Hunter), 3 Autocannons, 4 Plasmaguns, and 3 Heavy Bolters.

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Devjon link
06/06/2011 4:00pm

@ Algesan

Actually, you are changing a little more than that.

You replace a TL Lascannon and a regular Lascannon with two Missile Launchers. On both accounts the Lascannons are better for the list.

What you gain over the Lascannons (through other options) is another 5-man squad and an extra Plasma Gun (and, to be technical, the extra Bolters that they have).

Of course, you also lose some Armor Saturation, some mobility, and some redundancy; so you're really only comparing the two Lascannons with the two Missile Launchers. While the Missile Launchers are better against Infantry (except against anything that a Krak Missile would be used against, in which case the Lascannons are better) I feel that the loss of Anti-Tank is not worth it. Changing the Plasma Guns takes away virtually no Anti-Tank and the Flamer gives more Anti-Infantry where it counts than the Missile Launcher, so if you are making a change to improve the anti-infantry then.

++++++

But I would like to reiterate my opinion. The Flamer is not meant to be used offensively, it is there so that if and when you get stuck in a situation to use it you are more dangerous than otherwise. The Plasma Gun technically offers some redundancy but at the cost of being able to kill Infantry. That is why I would choose the Flamer.

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