Making CC work for the BT: Part Two!

06/04/2011

12 Comments

 
As you may have noticed, Part One made great efforts to examine what we could do as a codex to improve our chances at creating a good CC-oriented army.  What I came up with was a PotMS-based MSU list, that relies on small units to mop up the mess left behind after the Typhoons and Vindicators had their fun.  The original article didn't prompt much discussion, but I did see lots of players designing their own versions of the PotMS list.  My first list was okay.  I still think it'll work, but it has some problems.  It won several games, but it also lost horribly against the new GK Purifier spam.  So its going to change a little bit.  Besides, those that did reply suggested changes too. 

The main concern with the list was the fact that there were too few troops, in not enough numbers, to be successful in close combat.  I can understand that to an extent, especially considering that you cannot control where you'll take losses or when.  However, it doesn't stop the BA from running MSU and doing well with it, so I don't see a reason why we cannot as well.  True, they are cheaper due to their Assault squads getting a massive discount on transports, but they are similarly powerful in assault. 

I want to start off with the new list, then I'll go into why I took the things I did.  That seems to work better for me and everyone needs their own style right?  ;)

HQ:
* Emperor's Champion w/ Black Sword, Bolt Pistol, Armor of Faith, and the Vow: "Accept Any Challenge, No Matter The Odds." [140]

Troops:
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 CCWs and BPs, 1 Meltagun & 1 Power Weapon. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons and Power of the Machine Spirit. [220]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 CCWs and BPs, 1 Meltagun & 1 Power Weapon. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons and Power of the Machine Spirit. [220]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 CCWs and BPs, 1 Meltagun & 1 Power Weapon. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons and Power of the Machine Spirit. [220]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 CCWs and BPs, 1 Meltagun & 1 Power Weapon. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons and Power of the Machine Spirit. [220]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 CCWs and BPs, 1 Meltagun & 1 Power Weapon. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons and Power of the Machine Spirit. [220]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 CCWs and BPs, 1 Meltagun & 1 Power Weapon. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons and Power of the Machine Spirit. [220]

Fast Attack:
* Land Speeder Squadron: 1 Land Speeder w/ 1 Heavy Bolter and 1 Typhoon Missile Launcher. [70]
* Land Speeder Squadron: 1 Land Speeder w/ 1 Heavy Bolter and 1 Typhoon Missile Launcher. [70]
* Land Speeder Squadron: 1 Land Speeder w/ 1 Heavy Bolter and 1 Typhoon Missile Launcher. [70]

Heavy Support:
* Predator Destructor w/ Autocannon and Side-sponson Heavy Bolters.  [110]
* Predator Destructor w/ Autocannon and Side-sponson Heavy Bolters.  [110]
* Predator Destructor w/ Autocannon and Side-sponson Heavy Bolters.  [110]

Total:  [2000]

Okay, so you'll notice some differences from my first list.  I have a couple of variants of the PotMS list, but I like the list I just showed you the best.  But why?  Mainly because it plays almost exactly like my MSU-drop pod list.  Except without the drop pods and the unpredictability of reserves.  Not to mention, I'm able to remain mobile throughout the game.  The list itself is similar to Stelek's, but with some very notable changes. 

The first important one is that the troops themselves actually provide something to the list besides being troops.  They can jump out of their "fast" transport, then shoot and assault with reasonably scary results.  Secondly, you'll notice that I took out the Vindicators.  This was a hard choice, but I felt this change actually worked better with this list.  Yeah, I lost a lot of you guys right there.  But continue to read on for my explanation!

The Vindicators in my first list proved to be a huge distraction, as well as providing near first turn fire on my opponent.  That is pretty damn dangerous and reaped quite a kill tally.  However, it was short lived, as their sides were exposed to incoming fire.  So they were essentially one and done.  I also found that the AT in those lists seriously lacking, so I needed a backup plan.

But but but...those Predators don't have PotMS!!  I know, if I had the points, they would.  Fortunately, its not essential, as they'll play the fire support role in the army.  They'll also be providing cover for my Typhoons.  See, this army doesn't fully advance.  It uses the extremely mobile Razorbacks to spread across the board (or focus depending on the situation), providing dangerous MSU enemies to your opponent.  Or they could hang back, drawing my opponent in.  I'm not sure if you've tried it, but killing off 6 5-man MEQ units isn't easy.  Especially when you have to get into their transports as well.  The Crusader squads themselves have duality in that they can kill either infantry (CC) or vehicles (meltagun/razorback).  And there is enough of them to deal with any threat.  While they won't be able to stand up to dedicated CC-units, that is what the Predators are for.  Blasting up those units into bite-sized chunks.  :D

So this is how it has worked for me in my playtesting.  Dakka predators hang back in the deployment zone, with the Typhoons directly behind them to claim hull down.  These vehicles will be firing all game, or for as long as they can.  In the meantime, the crusader squads can either advance while firing, or they can hang back a little bit the first few turns until an opportunity presents itself to strike.  Once the AT in the army busts open transports, the Predators go to work.  This list acts very much like the scalpel Space Marines are claimed to be.  It can strike anywhere and remain lethal on the move.  Thoughts?  :)
 


Comments

Algesan link
06/04/2011 7:11am

LR firepower, close assault by bolter and then charge in with the sword after you've executed the prep fire.

Better Templar fluff list IMO than the hand everyone a bolt pistol + chainsword and then point them in the direction of the enemy lines.

Yes, this is your DDP without the reserve rules. It would play almost exactly the same.

I'll note that since you are going with PotMS transports, it is possible to do some mix and match on the six Crusaders with melta, plasma and flamer. 12" movement while firing covers a number of sins.

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Nikephoros link
06/04/2011 8:04am

Hey Laeroth. I think the only way BT work in CC is with 10 man squads to do the heavy lifting.

Personally, I've been moving to a 3x2 system where I have 3x 10 man double melta squads in Rhinos and 2x 5 man shooty squads to sit back on objectives.

Generally, two min squads sitting on objectives is fine when you also have shooty terminators or TH/SS terminators to take the heat off of them.

Your 10x man squads advance to midfield to melta bubble and then once you pop the enemy transports you advance them up to start chopping people up.

But really, that isn't a CC based list, that's what I'd called a balanced BT list.

All that said, BT has some severe issues...

1. Crusader Squads even with AAC cannot beat the following: BA Ass squads with Priest, Grey Hunters, Plague Marines, Death Wing Terminators, Grey Knight Purifiers, 30 man Ork Squads, Tervigon-Buffed Gaunts. That leaves a pretty narrow list of troops choices that they CAN beat.

It's hard to have a list where your troops are your primary CC force and your troops aren't actually good at CC.

I think a healthy amount TH/SS terminators running across the board are pretty much the only way to make a CC centric list work these days for BT.

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Trignama
06/04/2011 11:11am

Hey ML,

Just thought I'd comment here. The list looks pretty solid in my eyes, you seem to have quite a bit of anti tank in 6 Melta guns, 6 TLLC's, 3 TML's, and 3 auto cannons. The 9 heavy bolters and all the CC marines should do well to clean up the infantry in the enemy army.

The thought of 6 MSU squads in fast transports I think is just as viable as having 3 large combat focused CC squads, as you shouldn't have much of a problem multi assaulting a single enemy unit with several of yours.

In fact this may even be a better strategy as it will force your opponent to either split his attacks up to try to take down all of your units, or simply focus on one and try to annihilate it.

Playtest a few more games with it and let us know the outcome, possibly a battle rep or two?

Reply
Lucion
06/04/2011 5:04pm

I dont know. Its not Steleks list and the vindicators made it what it was.

125 points per razor back..hmm


If your going so heavy on investing in razor backs it would probably be better to take 3 land raiders instead of the 6 razor backs.


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Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link
06/04/2011 7:38pm

This is another one of the variants I made up a while back that I like. I've since realized is strikingly similar to Devjon's list. But its all good. Link below the list. ;)

HQ:
* Emperor's Champion w/ Black Sword, Bolt Pistol, Armor of Faith, and the Vow: "Accept Any Challenge, No Matter The Odds." [140]

Troops:
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 CCWs and BPs, 1 Flamer & 1 Power Weapon. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons, Extra Armor, and Power of the Machine Spirit. [221]
* Crusader Squad: 6 Initiates w/ 4 CCWs and BPs, 1 Flamer & 1 Power Weapon. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons, Extra Armor, and Power of the Machine Spirit. [237]
* Crusader Squad: 6 Initiates w/ 4 CCWs and BPs, 1 Flamer & 1 Power Weapon. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons, Extra Armor, and Power of the Machine Spirit. [237]
* Crusader Squad: 6 Initiates w/ 4 CCWs and BPs, 1 Flamer & 1 Power Weapon. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons, Extra Armor, and Power of the Machine Spirit. [237]
* Crusader Squad: 6 Initiates w/ 4 CCWs and BPs, 1 Flamer & 1 Power Weapon. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons, Extra Armor, and Power of the Machine Spirit. [237]

Fast Attack:
* Land Speeder Squadron: 1 Land Speeder w/ 1 Heavy Bolter and 1 Typhoon Missile Launcher. [70]
* Land Speeder Squadron: 1 Land Speeder w/ 1 Heavy Bolter and 1 Typhoon Missile Launcher. [70]
* Land Speeder Squadron: 1 Land Speeder w/ 1 Heavy Bolter and 1 Typhoon Missile Launcher. [70]

Heavy Support:
* Predator Annihilator w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons, Side-sponson Heavy Bolters, and Power of the Machine Spirit. [160]
* Predator Annihilator w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons, Side-sponson Heavy Bolters, and Power of the Machine Spirit. [160]
* Predator Annihilator w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons, Side-sponson Heavy Bolters, and Power of the Machine Spirit. [160]

Total: [1999]

http://devjon.blogspot.com/2011/05/potms-list.html

Reply
Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link
06/04/2011 8:13pm

@ Nikephoros

This article series is about trying to find ways for the BT to work in CC. That does not mean that it is the focus of the list. When people think of CC-oriented Black Templars, they think huge ass units, terminators, bull-dozing forward in a storm of angry screaming super-humans. I've long since discarded that notion as being flawed and only useful in casual games.

Much like my "Defensive" Drop Pod list, this list would play more conservatively. The list's primary goal is to use its "fast" status to out-maneuver and manipulate my opponent. While doing this, I'll be plugging away with my shooting. But the list is designed so I don't have to rely on that. Devjon touched on this idea when he noted that almost all balanced lists require a backup plan to be successful. In my list's case, its close combat. The minimal squad sizes are to ensure maximum redundancy on both the meltaguns and power weapons. Nothing says I cannot charge a single unit with two units if the need calls for it.

While a single unit won't do much against a full sized unit or a dedicated CC-unit, it will kill things on the way down. It is the worst kind of speed bump for your opponent: one that hits back hard (unless facing Halberd GKs). They are NOT designed to go toe-to-toe with the units you listed by themselves. But a solo unit will certainly slow down the advance while taking a toll on the enemy unit. Something that is important in a counter-attack unit. Against weakened units, shooty-units (i.e. Long Fangs), battle suits, etc., these units will do just fine.

@ Trignama

Exactly! As for the battle reps, I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to manage it for a while. I have since moved and this area doesn't have a gaming store any longer. The store where I started playing 40k recently closed. :(

So the local 40k players are likely hiding out somewhere (I know they are here, since the Hobbytown USA sold a lot of 40k stuff before it shut down), I just have to find them. In the meantime, I'm going to have to learn how to play Vassal again I guess so I can get some playtesting in. In the near future, I'll be able to travel back down to the Twin Cities to play, but while I'm getting established at my new job, I don't want to make any unreasonable requests just yet.

@ Lucion

I've actually put in 5 or 6 games with Stelek's list, and while it is ingenious on paper, it doesn't work enough of the time. The Vindicators fall prey to side shots and one-weapon syndrome, just as my first version of the PotMS list did. The Crusader squads he has are naked and provide nothing to the battle other than being a redundant troops unit. They cannot shoot, nor do CC even marginally well. While the idea came from him, I'm trying to do it better. :D

3 Land Raiders, while similar in total points and weaponry, simply do not provide enough redundancy in a list that I would be comfortable playing. Strength 10 and melta shots hurt AV14 just as easily as AV11, but the difference is you have twice as many AV11 vehicles. Not only that, I would assume you're putting full sized squads in those Land Raiders, thus cutting down on the amount of meltaguns and power weapons. I just can't bring myself to do it. :(

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Th!rdeye
06/04/2011 10:46pm

A Predator Annihilator w/ HB sides is VERY VERY good.

Not only can it split fire but it is a fast Pred. Move that baby 12" and still fire the TLLC. Its a beast. I used it to great effect many times. I will do it again too. You never realize how nice TL is until you flub both Pred Destructor Lascannon shots...

Reply
red
06/07/2011 1:19am

ML
just a thought, do we really need heavy support in this style of list, in particular the heavy support you have opted for. i could understand if you wanted some more las but you have opted for the cheaper (all-beit more anit hord orientated approach) version. with 6 TLLC shots per turns thats not bad, plus all the melta, and lets face it, typhoons can pretty much do what your heavy support can anyways, and cheaper. would it be worthwhile maybe dropping the preds for maybe some CML terms and another speeder? or for more troops and another speeder?

just a thought

red

Reply
Lucion
06/07/2011 9:58am

I was reading an article on Bt recently and have to say. Annihilators appear very attractive.

I believe they can make up for the lack of melta we have.

Yes I think the pred annhilators and CML termies should both be tried with this list.

Reply
Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link
06/07/2011 2:35pm

@ Red

The Predators that I have in this list were taken for a very specific role as you mentioned: anti-infantry. Without them the AI comes primarily from the Typhoons, which are quite fragile. There is already three in the list and adding more just bring more fragility to the army. I'm not sure where else I'd be able to make up the AI if I took them out. :(

The Terminators wouldn't be such a bad addition, except that I'd have to take the Predators out to take them. To gain 2 Tank-Hunter CMLs and 5 Storm Bolters, I'd lose 3 ACs and 6 Heavy Bolters. This is a serious loss in AI firepower. Plus, the Terminators can only fire at one unit a turn, where the Preds can fire at three. Which makes me sad face. If I could find a way to add two or three Terminator units into the list without losing my troops, then they'd be much more attractive to me.

I'm all ears if you think you can find a way to do that without losing too much of the list. Right now, I'm thinking I'd have to lose the Typhoons and Preds as there simply is nothing else to lose (you'd be able to fit in two terminator squads).

@ Lucion

I like the TL-Las/HB Preds as well when they are armed with PotMS. Its why I built a list featuring them (a little ways up in the comments). I did have to sacrifice a troops unit to fit them in, but I don't think the loss will hurt...that much. I don't know for sure yet, as I've not played that particular list yet.

It does seem to me that its lacking melta, which is important in this list because I don't have the shear amount of Lascannons to stop AV14. But that is okay, because I make some tweaks to the list to cover that deficiency.

HQ:
* Emperor's Champion w/ Black Sword, Bolt Pistol, Armor of Faith, and the Vow: "Accept Any Challenge, No Matter The Odds." [140]

Troops:
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 CCWs and BPs, 1 Flamer, 1 Power Weapon & Frag Grenades. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons and Power of the Machine Spirit. [221]
* Crusader Squad: 6 Initiates w/ 4 CCWs and BPs, 1 Flamer, 1 Power Weapon & Frag Grenades. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons and Power of the Machine Spirit. [238]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 CCWs and BPs, 1 Meltagun, 1 Power Weapon & Frag Grenades; 1 Neophyte w/ CCW and BP & Frag Grenades. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons and Power of the Machine Spirit. [236]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 CCWs and BPs, 1 Meltagun, 1 Power Weapon & Frag Grenades; 1 Neophyte w/ CCW and BP & Frag Grenades. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons and Power of the Machine Spirit. [236]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 CCWs and BPs, 1 Meltagun, 1 Power Weapon & Frag Grenades; 1 Neophyte w/ CCW and BP & Frag Grenades. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons and Power of the Machine Spirit. [236]

Fast Attack:
* Land Speeder Squadron: 1 Land Speeder w/ 1 Heavy Bolter and 1 Typhoon Missile Launcher. [70]
* Land Speeder Squadron: 1 Land Speeder w/ 1 Heavy Bolter and 1 Typhoon Missile Launcher. [70]
* Land Speeder Squadron: 1 Land Speeder w/ 1 Heavy Bolter and 1 Typhoon Missile Launcher. [70]

Heavy Support:
* Predator Annihilator w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons, Side-sponson Heavy Bolters, Power of the Machine Spirit, and Searchlights. [161]
* Predator Annihilator w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons, Side-sponson Heavy Bolters, Power of the Machine Spirit, and Searchlights. [161]
* Predator Annihilator w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons, Side-sponson Heavy Bolters, Power of the Machine Spirit, and Searchlights. [161]

Total: [2000]

Reply
BigDunc
06/19/2011 8:46pm

I agree with Nikephoros, this list is better advertised as a balanced list. A CC list would have some kind of chance against other CC lists... and this list doesn't have that.

I'd rather see the Vindicators back in the list. They are easy to kill.... but isn't that why you take three of them? They're just too good at anti-infantry, pair well with Typhoons and other AT, and excel better than anything else in the list at killing "BA Ass squads with Priest, Grey Hunters, Plague Marines, Death Wing Terminators, Grey Knight Purifiers, 30 man Ork Squads, Tervigon-Buffed Gaunts". The S10 ordnance also supplements the lack of melta. Which, speaking of, I will suggest putting multi-meltas on the Typhoons again.

I'd also suggest Dreadnaughts... 3 of them... for more close combat strength.

Reply
Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link
06/20/2011 1:23pm

@ Bigdunc

To make it more clear, I'll edit in a passage to explain what I did with the list. To be fair, you are correct. The focus of the list isn't primarily CC. It is a secondary function in a balanced list. However, even CC-oriented armies should be balanced lists. So billing mine simply as a balanced list doesn't work, because such a term describes nearly all competitive lists out there.

The way I've found to make CC work for the BT is to do as I did: not focus on it, but use it as a supplemental tool in the army. In that fashion, the stress of the list isn't on the CC portion, which we clearly are not suited. So it won't fail if we aren't effective in close combat. :D

Which list are you referencing for the changes? The one in the article? Or the one in the comments? The comment one, I'm thinking about throwing the Vindis back in there. That list needs the punch, considering that there is one less crusader squad in there. The latest "comment" list has room to play around and tweak.

However, playing with the one in the article, it has done quite well as is. The Predators do not ever have to expose anything but their front armor, allowing them to fire nearly all game long. That allows me to put the Typhoons directly behind, gaining cover. If I were to put the Vindicators into this list, I would lose either all of my meltaguns/power weapons, essentially making the troops useless. Otherwise, I'd have to take out Typhoons or one of the Crusader squads. That means no more MSU, which is a big strength in the list. There simply isn't enough available points. Plus, if I did make the change, you'd know exactly what I was going to do before the game even started. :(

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