So, while I was writing one of my Brutal Truth articles today, I had an idea and I rushed to Army Builder to put it down so I'd not forget it!  The original idea got amended a little bit (it had Dreadnoughts), but I believe this version is a far superior product.  Hell, I'd even take it for a test run myself to see how it ran!  Since every army needs a witty net-list name, I've dubbed it the "Templarbubble".  Here it is:

HQ:
* Reclusiarch w/ Crozius Arcanum, Storm Bolter, Terminator Armor, and Crusader Seals.  [125]
* Emperor's Champion w/ Black Sword, Bolt Pistol, Armor of Faith, and the Vow: "Abhor the Witch, Destroy the Witch." [110]

Elites:
* Sword Brethren Terminators: 10 Assault Terminators w/ Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields & Tank-Hunters.  [430]

Troops:
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Flamer & 1 Multi-Melta. Mounted in a Rhino w/ Smoke Launchers and Searchlight. [150]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Flamer & 1 Multi-Melta. Mounted in a Rhino w/ Smoke Launchers and Searchlight. [150]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Flamer & 1 Multi-Melta. Mounted in a Rhino w/ Smoke Launchers and Searchlight. [150]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Flamer & 1 Multi-Melta. Mounted in a Rhino w/ Smoke Launchers and Searchlight. [150]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Flamer & 1 Multi-Melta. Mounted in a Rhino w/ Smoke Launchers and Searchlight. [150]

Fast Attack:
* Land Speeder Squadron: 1 Land Speeder w/ 1 Heavy Bolter and 1 Typhoon Missile Launcher. [70]
* Land Speeder Squadron: 1 Land Speeder w/ 1 Heavy Bolter and 1 Typhoon Missile Launcher. [70]
* Land Speeder Squadron: 1 Land Speeder w/ 1 Heavy Bolter and 1 Typhoon Missile Launcher. [70]

Heavy Support:
* Predator Destructor w/ Autocannon and Lascannon Side-Sponsons. [125]
* Predator Destructor w/ Autocannon and Lascannon Side-Sponsons. [125]
* Predator Destructor w/ Autocannon and Lascannon Side-Sponsons. [125]

Total Points: [2000]

So what are you seeing?  A fusion of proven effective units (MM Bunkers, Typhoons, Preds) with CC-oriented Terminators.  What?  How is that possible?  Well, we all know how the Vanilla Space Marines are good with TH/SS terminators, especially when a Null Zone Librarian is taken with them.  We won't have a Librarian, but we do have a Chaplain.  I believe we can replicate many of the aspects that a Librarian brings to the Vanilla SM, so we're going to try it out.

First of all, you're probably wondering why I didn't take AAC as my vow.  The thought was that because I had a Chaplain with my single CC unit, it wasn't needed due to Litanies of Hate.  It is only effective on the turn of the charge, but that is just fine for me.  Anyone that actually charges my unit of terminators is going to die a horrible death.  LoH will take allow me to produce a "torrent of fire", which will emulate a Null Zone casting.  Plus, let's be realistic.  There are billions of armies out there with Psychic Hoods right now.  I'd rather have the re-rolls.  In addition, while we might not have a Hood ourselves, we do have our "Abhor" vow which will give us at least some protection against psykers.  ;)

But what else does the Chaplain and "Abhor" combo gain us?  Well, against some armies, our vow will not come into play and that is just fine.  Against those armies where Psykers are in play (quite a few), we have both protection and an extra consolidation move to start the game.  This synergizes very well with the footslogging nature of the terminators by moving them closer to the enemy and can help you fix any errors you made during deployment phase.  If and/or when your opponent starts shooting at those terminators, you'll likely lose one or two eventually.  With the Chaplain, all is well.  You'll never fail that Righteous Zeal test and what's more, you'll not have to worry about getting led around the board by bait units.  RZ is actually a boon for this unit and the Chaplain's crusader seals will help you gain the maximum movement distance possible. 

Adversely, you can use this unit as bubblewrap or to deep strike in.  Obviously DS isn't reliable and can take the unit out of the game.  That is the last thing we want, but it is an option.  As a bubblewrap unit, you can protect our mid-field MM Bunkers from enemy assaults, which is their primary weakness.  While I chose to go with 10 TH/SS in the squad, you can get away with adding in a few Lightning Claws in there if you want.  The Chaplain will be able to cull a few wounds off of the enemy unit at I5 before everyone else strikes, just for giggles.

I opted to go for the MM/Flamer combo for my MM Bunkers, to give me some horde-control.  There are five squads of them, so the redundancy is definitely there and I'll have firm control over the middle of the board.  The Rhinos also have Searchlights for those Night Fighting missions we all hate.  The rest of the army is pretty standard issue:  three separate squadrons of a single Typhoon and three AC/Las Predators.  These will be the primary LRAT in the army, at least until those MM get into range.  Should be more than sufficient, especially if your enemy concentrates their fire on the Terminators or the MM Bunkers.

So lets hear your thoughts!  :D


UPDATED LIST:

HQ:
* Reclusiarch w/ Crozius Arcanum, Bolt Pistol, Frag Grenades, Crusader Seals, and 3 Cenobyte Servitors. [127]
* Emperor's Champion w/ Black Sword, Bolt Pistol, Armor of Faith, and the Vow: "Abhor the Witch, Destroy the Witch." [110]

Elites:
* Sword Brethren Terminators: 10 Assault Terminators w/ Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields. [400]

Troops:
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Flamer & 1 Multi-Melta. Mounted in a Rhino w/ Smoke Launchers and Searchlight. [150]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Flamer & 1 Multi-Melta. Mounted in a Rhino w/ Smoke Launchers and Searchlight. [150]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Flamer & 1 Multi-Melta. Mounted in a Rhino w/ Smoke Launchers and Searchlight. [150]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Lascannon. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons. [191]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Lascannon. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons. [191]

Fast Attack:
* Land Speeder Squadron: 1 Land Speeder w/ 1 Heavy Bolter and 1 Typhoon Missile Launcher. [70]
* Land Speeder Squadron: 1 Land Speeder w/ 1 Heavy Bolter and 1 Typhoon Missile Launcher. [70]

Heavy Support:
* Predator Destructor w/ Autocannon and Lascannon Side-Sponsons. [125]
* Predator Destructor w/ Autocannon and Lascannon Side-Sponsons. [125]
* Predator Destructor w/ Autocannon and Lascannon Side-Sponsons. [125]

Total Points: [1999]
 


Comments

07/25/2011 6:35pm

Actually, this is quite refreshing. I can't see much really bad in this list and it effectively uses both a Foot-Slogging point sink and non-long ranged shooty Crusader Squads.

The only problem I foresee is your Terminators slowing down your Rhinos or making them split up. I'm not sure if you're worried about that or if it would be a real problem but still.

Anyway you found a place for one of the two most awesome looking units in the game! Also, glad that you're back.

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doomarn
07/25/2011 9:52pm

Nice list. my thoughts about what could be improved would be to take out tankhunter on terminators and loose the T-armor on your chaplain. give him 3 servitors so you can get where u want faster. If there are pts over then see what more you can buy for him.

Ohh and as a cool thing i heard on a podcast. The US ETC team will have a BT player taking a drop pod list.
Forgot his name tho. Listening to podcasts on my phone while i work nights. Makes time go faster.
//Doomarn on galaxy S2.

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07/25/2011 10:56pm

@ Devjon

I had tried to make lists with the TH/SS Terminators before, but I wasn't very successful. I'm not sure where it came from, but it just popped up so I had to take advantage of it while I could.

I imagine they would slow my Rhinos down if I stretched them out in a long line. Though, that isn't the only way to use them. I'm thinking more of a wedge formation, with the Rhinos flanking to get into position while the Terminators roll up. Between Running and Righteous Zeal, it shouldn't be too long before the Terminators are in their proper place. :)

I never really "left", it was more that my mood wasn't exactly conducive for writing blog posts. Some nights, even replying to the emails were tough. Which was kind of funny because since I posted that blog article, I've had LOTS of people emailing me. lol. But I don't mind. ;)

One of the IRL issues resolved itself (Grandpa survived his heart attack and the resulting complications), the other issue is in a "better" place, but still up in the air sadly.

@ Doomarn

Actually, the Cenobytes were also part of my original idea. I figured that the extra 3 inches per RZ would be really nice to have. However, I opted against them for a couple reasons:

1) Cenobytes cannot deep strike with the Terminator unit (which was also why I took the terminator armor on the Chaplain). While in most situations it probably isn't the best idea to DS, there are a few times where it actually works. I have to be able to be able to use that tactic of I need to.

2) If I add Cenobytes to the squad and I'm playing a competent player who knows what they doing, they aren't likely to fire at all at my Terminators. The termies are already super durable and Righteous Zeal only helps them get closer. Shooting at an unit that will always get at least 4" of movement (and up to 9") in the event of a casualty? My opponent would likely opt to fire against something else so RZ wouldn't come into play. The enemy would be more prone to shoot if a normal consolidation roll was made.

The Tank Hunters certainly isn't needed, but I kinda was looking to fill points. I could have gone with Extra Armor, but I didn't really feel it was needed since I only advance to mid-field anyway. Plus, its somewhat useful to have tank-hunters against Walkers and AV14, so I tossed it in there. Plus, it makes the Chaplain be able to penetrate AV10 armor. ;)

Oh? I wonder what is included in his list? There are a few BT DP lists going around the internet right now that I would consider poorly designed, so I'm wondering if this is one such list. Where did you listen to this podcast? 40k radio?

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07/26/2011 1:01am

I like this list, but if I was playing it I would avoid the Termies like crazy and shoot everything else. That seems to be kind of an achilles heel...

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07/26/2011 1:21am

Well, its obviously not been tested before so that could be a factor in its success. C:SM have the advantage of being able to "Gate of Infinity" around the board if they need to relocate long distances, but usually just hoof it around to get where they need. I think from watching good "Thunderbubble" players, we can effectively emulate them without needing the GoI spell. Abhor moves us closer (hopefully) after deployment is done, then we'll move at a pretty good clip with movement/running. Add in any RZ moves, and it should be T3 at the latest when we're assaulting.

Of course, if I'm unable to kill the transports of BA, Eldar, or DE players...I'm going to have some problems. But I think the nice little feature of the list is that if you target everything else, you allow the Terminators to close in. If you try to kill the terminators off, then you let the other stuff do their thing. In my experience, 5 units of 5 marines in Rhinos aren't exactly EASY to kill off either. But its definitely possible.

The terminators are kind of a bonus for me in this list. The list works just fine without them, with a nice solid core. But if your opponent ignores that terminator unit, they could potentially be in a world of hurt. I would probably try to do the same Smegs, but unless you're playing a gunline army, I don't think I'd be able to do enough damage before the terminators hit home. :(

Plus, it gets hard to avoid a stretched out line of 10 terminators (obviously depends on the situation). Lots of multi-assaults are possible. ;)

One army I think this list might have problems with is the SM Biker army. They simply are too fast and durable for the firepower in this list. They are in a good position to hit your flanks and can take advantage of weak points.

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doomarn
07/26/2011 8:28am

At the end of the latest episode on the independent character podcast.

Also i understand your thinking about DS the terminators. but i think you will walk them 9 out of 10 times anyway.

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07/26/2011 1:08pm

Aye, you are probably right. I'll give it some playtesting and see how it goes. If I need to add the Cenobytes, its a simple enough change to make. :)

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07/27/2011 5:40pm

I really, really like it. TH/SS termies are on the list of units in our codex that are on par with 5th edition codices' units and I have been trying to figure out how to get a unit into a 2k list and be effective. I think you may have it. At very least, in the right direction.

I'd like to see it played without the Chaplain, I don't think he is absolutely necessary. He is an expensive character who makes the unit more killy. Was the unit not killy enough already? I think that is the first place I'd look to get get some more points. Ditch him and Tank Hunters and you can start thinking about two more Typhoons or a Tank Hunting venerable dread.

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Trignama
07/27/2011 9:39pm

Its not all about being killy, having Ten termies take a leadership test at LD 9 everytime they take a casualty can get very dangerous very quick. Throw the chaplain in there and now ur fearless and auto pass zeal. Not to mention you choose the direction you move, and the lack of AAC in this list means if you get the charge off you can still re roll hits in combat for the first round.

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07/27/2011 11:14pm

Ack! Nick Rose is the Black Templars player at ETC. That is Darkwynn. I think a little part of my soul died when I heard that name. Too much to ask to have someone that actually KNOWS how to play the army to be using them. :(

Here is the list he's bringing, give or take:

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/06/40k-battle-report-imperial-guard-vs.html


@ Nikephoros

Glad you like it. I'm a fan of the feel of it myself and as soon as I can manage it, I'll be taking it for a test run.

I suppose you could take out the Chaplain if you wanted, but as Trignama mentions, I have him in there for a reason. Without him, you're taking a big risk on those Righteous Zeal/Leadership tests. Plus, he helps you get across the board more timely and gives the re-rolls (not that you really need it, but still...better safe than sorry).

However, if you take him out the list should perform well enough. I just prefer him in there. Feels right.

I say that a lot. lol! Is it bad that I build lists by feel? haha.

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Lucion
07/28/2011 7:36am

With reference to DarkWynn
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/06/40k-hobby-darkwynns-new-black-templar.html

The Darkwynn Terminator Character with mantle and chainfist is +5 pts over costed. Because you can only add +100 pts of wargear and the new Storm shield is 5pts more expensive.

Look

Marshall 80 pts+
Chainfist 30 pts,
Stormshield 10 points in codex.. 15 points now?
Adamantine Mantle 35 pts
Terminator armour 25 pts

30+15+35+25 = 105 pts - It sucks because that build is awesome.

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Lucion
07/28/2011 7:51am

Great to see an alternative to the tllc razors.

I dont know about taking out the Chaplain, because, you need re rolls and the the benefits outweight the costs.
He gives seals, zeal and re rolls.

Is Tank hunters the best option over furious charge? Tank hunters add +1 to your armour penetration roll, so your str 9 vs vehicles. Furious charge makes you str 9 in vs vehicles and infantry.



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07/28/2011 9:07am

@ Lucion

Actually, you may be wrong about the Wargear. I noticed that in the Codex there is the Weapons section and then there is the Wargear section, both on the same page. I may be wrong but the argument is there.

Also, being S9 against non-vehicles rather than S8 gives you absolutely nothing. Until you are hiting something that is T7 you need a 2+ to wound with S8, the highest Toughness that I know of is T6 on the biggest things. In addition Furious Charge only grants you the benefit when you charge, rather than every turn.

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200Ponies
07/28/2011 9:09am

This idea blew my mind and it looks like a blast to play. Plus I really have been anxious to get the Chappy with Cenobytes out there. It is a fantastic group of models.

Assuming one wanted to include some Lightning Claw Termis in there what would an optimal mixture be? 8/2, 6/4?

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Lucion
07/28/2011 9:22am

Thing about Chappy and Cenobytes is they cant teleport. The extra 3 ablative wounds is handy though.

Maybe your right, the FC with Thunder hammers doesnt give much because your wounding on 2+ anyway. But I wouldnt run just TH SS, I'd have a few LC in there too (maybe 3) in which case FC is essential.

With regards to the wargear I think 1.1 is quite clear. Its pretty much saying cross out the 10 points and change it to 15.

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07/28/2011 9:42pm

Except that the Storm Shield is technically listed under Single-Handed Weapons, rather than Wargear so it does not count against your 100 point maximum.

Returning to the list, I'm wondering what kind of an option Plasma Guns would be over the Flamers. Less Horde control but you do get the extra range and you would be able to fire at whatever the Multi-Melta is firing at. Flamers are probably a better option, considering that what the Plasma Gun is good at is already threatened quite a bit, but I just thought I'd bring them up.

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07/30/2011 4:06am

Moral of the story on Darkwynn is that he's bad. Very, very bad. lol.

While the Chappy isn't 100% needed, I like him in here. I just think he helps out. There are rooms for tweaks if you do take him out.

@ Ponies

I'd drop no lower than 7/3 to be honest. You need enough durability to get across the board safely. 6/4 is too risky imo.

@ Devjon

Kirby mentioned the same thing when I posted the list in the chatbawks. It would definitely increase the effectiveness of the unit, but it loses the ultra-duality it has. While it would still have that duality because it can kill infantry well enough, what REALLY concerns me is the fact that it makes those rhinos huge threats. Which was one of the reasons I left off the meltaguns. If my opponent is worried about the MM bunkers, they are going to be firing at them instead of my Predators/Typhoons. And certainly before my Terminators. :(

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Lucion
07/30/2011 7:41am

Thanks Devjon. Makes sense now.

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09/07/2011 1:38pm

The author & people commenting seem, for the most part, to be retarded. You have little or no depth of knowledge of the enemy lists (T6 max? sigh), a basic understanding of list building with beginners execution.

Admittedly you've put your morals to one side with building a spam list, but you are spamming ineffective things? Why? If you are going to build spam, shouldn't it be super effective. Its embarrassing, embarrassing that you'd come forward with this nonsence are expect positive feedback... and its even more embarassing that you'd find morons out there that'd buy it.

I've played Darkwynn and I liked him, don't know why you have an issue with him... but given your opinion on everything else is bollocks, I'll sleep soundly with my take on him.

Cult Of Now

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MJayC
09/07/2011 2:36pm

Agree with the above.

Just from the character assassination alone I can tell that you are not worth to wipe the piss from his zipper with your mum's wedding dress. Aside from that - What a boring list! Let me know how it works out for you. I hear that Stelek could use more retarded players/writers for his blog of the most epic of fails. You will fit right in!

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09/07/2011 4:00pm

@ Cult of Now

First, the Nick Rose address. I have actually met the guy in person, though I doubt he knows who I am, and he IS a very nice guy. However, I have followed his written published material regarding the Black Templars and it is filled with flawed information, tactics, and list building in a COMPETITIVE environment. He does well with his other armies, but the stuff he says regarding the BT doesn't do anything for me. My opinion, take it as you will.

Your second point is regarding "spam" lists. Everywhere on this site, I say that I do not build lists for fluff purposes. I can say that for 85% of the players that came to Nova Open, Adepticon, or Wargamescon.

It is really simple and I say so in my site primer: It is what it is. If you don't like how I build lists, fine. If you do, great. Doesn't matter to me either way.

3rd...who fields C'tans and Wraithlords anymore in a competitive game? Come on now. The highest VIABLE toughness you're likely to see is T6. I invite you to point out my execution mistakes and show me the flaws in the list building. If you are so knowledgeable about them, show me where I'm wrong. I welcome it. My list building articles are not intended to be long winded. I don't want to hold everyone's hand, so all I give is basic overviews on it. If someone needs more information, they ask in the comments or emails.

And by the way, this "embarrassing non-sense" list turned in a pretty good record at Nova Open, so I'm not really concerned. ;)

@ MJacy

Read above. Second, maturity maybe? I stated my opinion of Darkwynn's Black Templars skills and that is it. Just as you are stating your opinion of mine. Do you see personal attacks in either of my comments about him? Nope. I just said he was bad (referencing BT). So what about that wiping piss now? Thought so.

And yes, I happen to enjoy playing lists such as these. They don't bore me at all, that is why I write them. They work quite well, in fact. I don't expect others to and I know going into a game what my opponent expects from my lists.

Stelek does his own thing, and I do mine. He and I don't exactly see eye to eye on Black Templars either. :P

@ Both

Feel free to continue trolling as you desire, it amuses me. :)

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MJayC
09/07/2011 4:32pm

Excellent!

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Cult Of Now
09/07/2011 4:34pm

Trolling away, its not usual for me, pleas eindulge me :-) Spam is good, but GOOD spam, you gift wrap this turd as if its anything other than standard mech spam. I assume this list didn't win it, or even come top 10. If it did, it was you rather than the list.

The Necron list topping the ESC (the last singles tournament I went to) for Game 2 and 3 had a C'Tan. Wraithlords are very useful at nerfing non-powerfist-wielding deathstars. Far enough, I'd take holospam everyday, but I don't play tournament Eldar. So yes, T8 does occur in Tournaments regularly, to suggest otherwise is churlish.

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09/07/2011 10:24pm

@ MJayC

I forgot to tell you earlier that your insult made me laugh out loud when I read it. I'm definitely stealing that. Haha. :D

@ Cult of Now

No, the list wasn't played by me. Rather a new BT player (obviously a reader) and he finished somewhere in the 70-80ish place (out of 220). Which is not bad at all. I'm curious what you don't consider to be good spam in the list?

You also have to remember that we're talking about an outdated codex here. It doesn't have all of the fancy bells and whistles the other 2/3rds of the SM codices have. So while it may be standard mech spam, it takes what little the BT have going for them and makes use of it. :P

1) 70 point Typhoons are amazing, no matter how you slice it.

2) AC/Las Predators are average, but their firepower cannot be replicated elsewhere in the list.

3) The MM Bunkers perform exactly as they should, for dirt ball cheap. They are dangerous in the center of the board, producing threat for enemy armor. 5-man squad with heavy/special weapons? Yes please. All for 150 points.

The inefficient part of the list really is the Chaplain and Terminators, as they really sometime else entirely. And the reason they are in the list? Because I was trying to appease the casual players and their desire for "fluffy" BT close combat armies. Turns out the list works pretty well. ;)

It is also important to note the different environments we play in. You are in the UK and the play style is much different over there. Ya'll normally play at 1500 points (sometimes 1850 but very rarely 2k), have some sort of comp in the tournaments, and have a smaller player base (but often much more focused in certain areas...which is nice). You also have to deal with each of the other trends and fads from each of the European countries nearby.

Here in the States, comp in tournaments is a thing of the past; we also play almost exclusively 2000 points. So taking inefficient lists to tournaments here will net you a loss more times than not. Sportsmanship is expected in tournaments, but we also expect our opponents to put out the nastiest list they can. That is why "spam" and netlisting has grown so big.

So while T8 may be common where you are, they are NOT common anymore here. There was ONE C'Tan in the entire 220 person field at Nova Open and I'm fairly sure that all the Eldar players were running Mechdar, so no Wraithlords there either.

I've stated that I tune my lists for the USA Grand Tournament scene, as that is what I know and play in. I don't play in the UK, AUS, Sweden, Germany, etc, so I cannot expect my advice to be 100% valid there. ;)

I'm happy to provide you a place to vent your emotions. :D

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MJayC
09/08/2011 11:23am

I think most people in Europe see that when you make a list - certain other lists are just going to destroy you. The all comers thing is a lie. Everyone has at least one nasty match up regardless of list.

For the Eldar player who brings Wraithlords (such as The American ETC player who did fantastically well with Footdar - again) if he sees DE on the other side of the board then he will be shit out of luck - if he has a mech element then he may feel like its a good match - who knows!

UK doesnt really have comp - certainly not that I am interested in. We have the same as you. Plus its 1750 normally here but its a big spread really. 1500 all the way to 2000 are regular here.

Plus - your welcome for the insult :D

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alaric
09/29/2011 2:15am

well, it is an interesting list, but I just have to ask, WHERE IS THE BLOB SQUADS?

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