As I previously mentioned, there is a Grand Tournament taking place for the first time in recent memory here in Minnesota.  The Dark Star GT is being put on by the same people that put on the hugely popular North Star Tournament.  Being Minnesotan, there is absolutely no excuse as to why I cannot make to this tournament.  Thus, tickets are purchased and my travel arrangements are made.  Upon closer inspection, however, it looks like they reduced the player total from 80 to 60, so that is slightly disappointing.  It also uses INAT FAQ, so that is also somewhat annoying.  Still, a GT in Minnesota!  It might be my last opportunity to show off the old Black Templars before they are updated.
Before I get into the list itself and my discussion on it, some house-keeping things.  If you sent me an email on December 5th or later, I've still not gotten to you yet.  Its coming.  I got through the prior two week's emails the past two days and I hope to make similar progress over the next couple of days.  That is one of the downfalls of only having one person maintaining a website...sometimes you just cannot keep up with it.  Especially when you don't open your email up for over a month...

Moving on then, we're going to build on the first part of my Dark Star GT discussion.  When I was thinking about what I wanted to bring to this tournament originally, I couldn't decide whether or not I wanted to bring something that I thought could win, bring a tricksy-rock army, or test out Darkwynn's list for myself.  For the latter choice, I wanted to see if I could replicate his results with my own skills.  This would prove that the list itself is decent, or at the very minimum, something that opposing players were not expecting to see.  In the end, I didn't want to go this route because it ultimately didn't matter, as the codex was getting updated soon. 

That left the rock army or one that I reasonably felt had a chance to win.  I could have taken a rock army, but I felt that if I had won with it, I'd not get due credit because I squeezed into a niche that no one had an answer for.  And of course, there would be someone calling my skills into question because of my army list choices.  Or worse yet, the event itself.  So that is out too.

What I originally came up with was a balanced all-comers list, based off my "Hybrid" Tony K fusion articles.  That list was the one brought up in part one (link was earlier).  However, I am worried about it.  Why?  Because it is a list that relies on close combat to finish things off.  That wouldn't be a problem if it was what my list focused on and had the numbers to support it.  At 1850 points, I simply don't have them.  There are two units who rush forward under the cover of fire, while two remain back to hold objectives (or advance as needed).  That is not enough mechanized saturation.  If those front Rhinos go down, then my main punch in the list is walking.  I can't have that.  Not only that, those CC-Templars aren't going to really scare anything CC-oriented.  Especially if they are armed with power weapons (i.e. Grey Knights, Sanguinary Guard, Incubi, Terminators, etc).  You also have to worry about such things as the Necrons now, with their huge numbers of Telsa/Gauss weaponry and the ability to get back up.  No, that isn't what I need.

However, the main thing that I'm considering when I'm looking at lists is what the boards look like.  And this is what they looked like for the Dark Star's sister event, the North Star GT.  Shooting galleries!  While I don't think the boards will be quite as sparse at the 40k event, it does give me something to go on.

That means I need to either return to something I know works or try something new.  I'm going to do a little of both.  I like my gunline.  I really do.  The list works; I was perhaps a little too knee-jerk about my performance at Nova 2011.  The terrain did negatively impact my list at Nova Open, however, it was too stationary from the beginning.  And that is on me.  But by making some slight tweaks, I can create a more mobile force that fills some of the holes my list previously had.  All the while, I lose very little of the crucial firepower the list relies on (i.e CML-Terminators, Typhoons, Razorbacks).  You might be familiar with those changes.  If not, take a look at this article to update yourself.  ;)

Yes, I know.  2000 points.  Things need to change to scale down to the needed 1850 points.  The most obvious place to start without destroying the core of the list (and really, its a core that is found in a bunch of my lists) is to remove one of the 200 point Crusader squads.  At this point level, I think I can get away with only 3 troops.  Its definitely a risk, but I'm willing to take it.  I'd be more hesitant if there were more IG players coming, however, I'm seeing lots of MEQ.  After all, this isn't Nova Open so I won't likely have to worry about the Tri-Mission goal setup either.  There are a few other tweaks I made to make take some upgrades, but I'll give you the list then talk about those things in a second.


HQ:
* Emperor's Champion w/ Black Sword, Bolt Pistol, Armor of Faith, and the Vow: "Accept Any Challenge, No Matter the Odds." [140]

Elites:
* Sword Brethren Terminators: 5 Terminators w/ 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers, 5 Storm Bolters, 5 Power Fists, and Tank-Hunters. [265]
* Sword Brethren Terminators: 5 Terminators w/ 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers, 5 Storm Bolters, 5 Power Fists, and Tank-Hunters. [265]

Troops:
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons, 1 Meltagun & 1 Bolt Pistol and Power Weapon. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons and Power of the Machine Spirit. [220]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons, 1 Meltagun & 1 Bolt Pistol and Power Weapon. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons and Power of the Machine Spirit. [220]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons, 1 Meltagun & 1 Bolt Pistol and Power Weapon. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons and Power of the Machine Spirit. [220]

Fast Attack:
* Land Speeder Squadron: 1 Land Speeder w/ 1 Heavy Bolter and 1 Typhoon Missile Launcher. [70]
* Land Speeder Squadron: 1 Land Speeder w/ 1 Heavy Bolter and 1 Typhoon Missile Launcher. [70]
* Land Speeder Squadron: 1 Land Speeder w/ 1 Heavy Bolter and 1 Typhoon Missile Launcher. [70]

Heavy Support:
* Vindicator w/ Demolisher Cannon, Storm Bolter, and Power of the Machine Spirit.  [155]
* Vindicator w/ Demolisher Cannon, Storm Bolter, and Power of the Machine Spirit.  [155]

Total Points: [1850]


So what else changed from my 2000 point version?  Namely, I took the Chain Fists away from the Terminators, trimmed the Neophytes from the Crusader squads, and took the Extra Armor from the Vindicators.  I don't know this tournament organizer, so I don't know how finicky they are about the EA upgrade being "shown" on the model.  Thus, I'm just going without.  Where are all those extra points going?  Well, if you didn't already notice:  straight into PotMS for my Razorbacks.  By doing so, I gain mobility while maintaining my full compliment of firepower.  That will allow me to stay beyond the 24" sweet spot against armies such as GK and Necrons, as well as rapidly redeploy against Alpha Strike/Fast Enemies.

I already know the argument.  Yes, it makes the Razorback extremely expensive when it already is.  Yes, the Razorback only has one weapon.  Yes, there is only three of them so redundancy isn't as good in this list.  Moral of the story:  While the Razorbacks and their troops squads may be the most tactically sound target in a particular game, it certainly is NOT the most dangerous or easiest to eliminate.  And that is why the Vindicators are there.  They will attract HUGE amounts of attention.  Especially considering I can usually pull off a 1st turn shot with them.  And there are two of them!  These will be the bane of MEQ and heavy armor alike.  Land Raiders?  No problem.  Anyone that has faced a Vindicator can note the amount of damage it can tally and they aren't exactly easy to put down.  That's not even considering they have PotMS themselves.  :)

The list itself combines a lot of the flavors that I enjoy in the Black Templars army right now:  the ability to field an effective array of shooting elements in the army via the dual-CML Terminators and Typhoons, plus the durability/mobility promoted by the PotMS upgrades on our vehicles.  In addition, the Crusader/Terminator squads have just enough "Oomph" with AAC that they can take care of business in close combat as well if its needed.  Something that was seriously lacking in the previous edition of the list.

The list does change my configuration a little bit and I will have to purchase Vindicators to add to the army.  I will also need to do a little bit more painting than anticipated, but as noted previously, I'm going to be doing a lot of that over the coming months.  More of a distraction from everything else going on IRL, but we'll see how everything turns out.  Fortunately, painting is not required in this tournament...so the pressure isn't there to put paint on things sloppy-like.  I can afford to take my time on some of this stuff, but I certainly can't paint as quickly as some others I know...


 


Comments

Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link
12/29/2011 7:41pm

And to go with this, I'll be posting painting updates fairly regularly. Hopefully this evening I can get another post up with what my force currently looks like and where I need to go from here. :D

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Devjon link
12/29/2011 8:21pm

The list doesn't look too bad, although I have two concerns about it.

The first is that it seems like you're overestimating the Vindicators. In the two-or-three games that I've played with them they tend to do a random amount of damage and then die. It may be because I've either rushed them forward T1 or have Drop-Podded Melta on them, but they just don't seem to last even when you can negate side-shots. So while you say that they will attract a lot of attention and take it and do lots of damage, I think that they'll only do that if your opponent doesn't have an answer to them. If he does (Melta chasing them down or successful side-shots or weight of fire on them) then you lose a large chunk of your list's ability and your Crusader Squads are left vulnerable.

The second is if you're getting two Vindicators, and the Tournament organizer might require you to represent Extra Armor on them, why can't you just assemble them with the Extra Armor? Or could the TO require that you include extra stuff if you want the upgrade?

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Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link
12/29/2011 9:29pm

That would be a legitimate concern and one I examined when I initially redesigned the Gunline list (the Vindicator version). The simple fact is that it causes threat to everything but a full Deep Strike army. And those armies can deal with them without any real problems. That is a problem for sure, but lets be realistic about it: how many "good" deep strike armies exist? The Black Templars have one, so do the Blood Angels (Nipplewing). I guess you could call Loganwing a competitive deep strike list, but it lacks the MSU that BT have and the speed that the BA have. Those 2+ saves don't matter when you're peppering them with AP2 fire.

It also gives me a counter against uber-CC units without actually engaging them in close combat. Specifically TWC and Nob Bikers. Both are decimated by semi-accurate Vindi fire.

You have to remember what my original gunline list was designed to do: pop vehicles and pin my opponent in their deployment zone. I still do that very well, as I still have the majority of my firepower left in my list. The Predators will be missed as AT fire support, but as Darkwynn mentioned at one point, they do suffer from lack of shots due to how stationary they must remain to fire at full effect. Besides that, I'm losing the Crusader squad's LR firepower, but I found at Nova that they just sat around in their transports anyway.

So I wouldn't say the loss of the Vindicators would be such a huge problem, as I still have all of my scary LR firepower left. And this time, I am much more mobile with my Razorbacks so play more aggressive/defensive as is needed (i.e. claiming objectives, hiding behind cover). In essence, what I found I had to do with my Crusader squads too late in Nova. They also have improved CC abilities. Will they knock over anything tough? No. But they do scare other mini-MEQ squads which are fairly common.

Your second comment is easier to comment on. Simply put, I loathe the look of the extra armor. In older editions, it was that little trapezoid looking piece that fit over the front of the vehicle. Lame. The Forgeworld ones aren't much better imo. Plus, they are fairly expensive. Thus, I have been able to simply do it "count as" and most TO's allow this as common practice. However, I'm not familiar with this TO or his policies, so I felt it was just better to leave it off. I didn't have the points for it anyway. :)

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Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link
12/29/2011 9:59pm

I also wanted to add that while the Black Templars can compete, its usually using unconventional means. Examples are our DP lists, gunlines, a rock army, or something like Darkwynn's list. We build balanced lists, but it usually requires something unexpected to pull us ahead. I'm willing to take on a little risk so that I'm able to compete with the other more balanced codices out there.

Then again, if I can find something better than the list above, I'll do so. As always, there isn't anything concrete keeping me to this list.

Devjon link
12/30/2011 3:09pm

I'm not overly concerned about having Vindicators, but how you were talking about them which could reflect your expectations. You made them sound like they were the best units in your list and would be more useful than your Terminators. While I think that they may do some good, I don't think that they will be much more useful than Predators (one exception to this is that they are useful in a different way, which covers a weakness better and thus should be taken instead).

As for the Extra Armor (which you can afford if you drop the Storm Bolters they have), couldn't you just contact the TO and ask him if you could either just 'count as' the Extra Armor or find some other way to represent it?

Algesan link
12/29/2011 10:44pm

Heh, the same points level I'm working at, but then I'm doing Deep Strike. Leaning towards this one:
1 Emperor's Champion – Accept Any Challenge, No Matter The Odds [140]
1 Assault Terminator (3xTLC, 2xTH/SS, Furious Charge) [215]
2 Terminator (2xCyclone ML/SB/PF, 2xSB/PF, 1xSB/CF, Tank Hunter) [540]
1 Crusader (5/0, Melta, Pod-SB) [120]
2 Crusader (5/0, Melta, PF, Pod-SB) [270]
1 Crusader (5/1, Melta, PF, Pod-SB) [145]
6 Land Speeder Typhoon (HB/Typhoon ML) [420]

Devjon prefers this variation:
1 Emperor's Champion – Accept Any Challenge, No Matter The Odds [140]
1 Venerable Dreadnought (TLLC/HF/DCCW, XA, Tank Hunter, Pod-SB) [200]
2 Terminator (2xCyclone ML/SB/PF, 2xSB/PF, 1xSB/CF, Tank Hunter) [540]
2 Crusader (5/1, Melta, Pod-SB) [260]
1 Crusader (5/1, Melta, PF, Pod-SB) [145]
1 Crusader (5/2, Melta, PF, Pod-SB) [155]
6 Land Speeder Typhoon (HB/Typhoon ML) [420]

(one alternate is to pull a pair of Neophytes to give the Dreadnought's Pod a Deathwind for fun since it will often drop empty.

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Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link
12/31/2011 1:23am

I think I have to go with #2. Mainly because I don't like walking assault terminators. It really worries me. With the Dreadnought, at the very least, he's popping off TL-Lascannon shots with Tank-Hunters no matter where he is on the battlefield. Not to mention, he can single-handedly tie up dangerous CC-units and pretty much guarantee they don't affect the game. ;)

Not to mention, since you're only running 4 Crusader squads in your pod list, I like the extra bodies in those squads to help ensure they stick around. Normally I wouldn't worry about it if you had 6 squads, but 4 focuses your enemy's shooting a little bit. I think the extra Neophytes will help with that a bit.

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Algesan link
12/30/2011 12:34pm

Oh, BTW. WTF if "unconventional" about a Drop list from a Chapter that is known for their Drop Pod Assaults? I mean, if we were "conventional", we'd be pansy wannabeblue Codex types, wouldn't we? We'd have filthy psykers as brethren! HERESY! Only those given the Emperor's sanction are allowed to serve in that capacity, namely the astropaths & Navigators. As for the rest, use of Librarians makes them deniers of the Emperor's command.

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Devjon link
12/30/2011 3:01pm

Drop Pod lists are unconventional in that you see very few of them. Sure, you might see one on occasion, but how many have you seen? It isn't normal to see them, thus it is 'unconventional'.

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Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link
12/31/2011 12:36am

What Devjon said. While I think most of your comment was made sarcastically, if not, he did give an excellent description of what I meant by the term "unconventional". :)

Devjon link
12/30/2011 3:13pm

You know, while it's great that there is a Reply function now, only being able to have two replies makes it not so awesome.

++++++

I've thought of a possible change to your list. Since you don't fully need the PotMS on all of the Razorbacks, what about taking it away from two of them and instead putting it on the Vindicators? That way the Vindicators keep going when they get shaken, they have a larger threat-range, and you don't need those things on the Razorbacks as much.

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Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link
12/31/2011 1:16am

Yeah, the reply function is nice. But I agree that the two max per comment is a little annoying.

I have an standing email out to the guy, but I've not heard back from him yet. There really isn't a rush, since it is the holiday season, but I've done all I can on that front. MVBrandt would have gotten back to me that day. ;)

Haha. The vindicators are simply threat with lots of upside. They certainly aren't the center piece of the list, they just make the other stuff better. However, they already do have PotMS on them so taking it off of the Razorbacks wouldn't really help me. ;)

Oh, and the Storm Bolters aren't an upgrade...they come with that standard, so I can't drop it even if I wanted to. :(

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Devjon link
12/31/2011 3:46pm

You know, I could have sworn that I specifically noticed that you didn't have PotMS on those Vindicators. My bad. Similar thing for the Storm Bolters, I had forgotten that Vindicators have those naturally and so I assumed you had purchased them. And for some reason I was remembering 4 Razorbacks...maybe I should take a close look at that list again. :)

However, you could drop PotMS on one Razorback to get some small upgrades to hand around, such as Extra Armor (since you talked about Mobility).

Alexander Begg (Lucion)
12/31/2011 8:54am

Dissapointing post, all I am seeing at the moment is reposts of nothing more than a compilation of existing information combined with self-indulgence and smug self-praise.

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Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link
12/31/2011 1:17pm

This post is simply an update on my list for Dark Star GT. As you said, there isn't a whole lot of new information here. Just reasons for my choices. Some people like reading that type of stuff, others do not. :(

Tactical wise, there isn't much else I can pull out of our codex. Especially with an codex update coming so soon. However, I still do hope to get some deployment guides done. If there is stuff that people have questions about in the BT codex, that is where I can help. There might be some of those, as I still have 3 weeks of emails to catch up on. But that is one of the reasons I'm starting to go "Hobby" on the blog. Or at least until I think of something good tactically to write about that matters. :P

Self-indulgence and smug self-praise? That one has me confused though. Perhaps its was referencing the comments on my gaming skills and the reason I chose to change up the list? I suppose that is possible, if the reason I wrote those couple paragraphs were misinterpreted. Wasn't me chest-thumping, or calling myself the greatest player ever. I do want to win; that is always the goal. My comment was clarifying that I wanted to take a list that wouldn't get attacked by other online players later on. By that I mean, if it was a rock list and simply had way more "rock" things in it than the other players could handle, then the event would be attacked for its competitiveness. In their eyes, a rock army shouldn't win tournaments. So my point with that was, if I win (which there certainly is no guarantee...look at Nova Open), I want it to be because I won without surprising anyone with a rock or trick list. :)

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Algesan link
01/01/2012 12:40am

Yes, in my stray comment, the tongue was firmly in my cheek.

Yes, this could be considered a "repeat" post in some ways, because I think I'm the #1 person to jump Marshal Laeroth over the points costs and we've both gone there often enough in the last year (i.e. PotMS Lazback = 4x Drop Pods, 2d PotMS Lazback = 4th Crusader squad, 3d PotMS Lazback = Dreadnought).

Yes, I'm taking a chance on those smaller Crusader squads and for the Assault Terminators, I've gotten real comfortable with them as bubble wrap and/or deep striking. I see lists that will come at me and lists that will hang back and shoot. The ones that come at me save me the trouble of buying a transport and the ones that sit back have an absolute snit when I appear anywhere near their artillery park.

I *don't* like going down to four Crusaders and the lost of my meat shields, but I'm not uncomfortable with it. I've never used more than three troop choices to grab objectives and often times only one or two (while eliminating my opponents ' scoring units).

Lucion
12/31/2011 5:35pm

I forgot to say happy new years!!!

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Hulksmash
01/03/2012 10:54pm

I'll see ya there buddy :)

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Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link
01/03/2012 11:13pm

You better believe it. :)

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