BT Community Question: Killing Stuff

9/16/2012

Alright, so before I start making some pretty hefty changes to Implausible Nature, there are some things I'd like some input on. Obviously, I already have my own opinion on these "questions", but I'd like some outside perspective. Perhaps you guys will see something I haven't and it might be better than what I've thought of. I'm going to be doing these in parts, as to make this a more discussion-oriented series. The first of which is more of an analytical nature, though actual game-play will be greatly important to your answers. So let's get to it.

My first question to you all is how do we, as Black Templars players, insert effective and efficient anti-infantry (specifically MEQ) into our lists in 6th Edition? Also take into consideration the newest BT FAQ that we've received, as well as the BRB FAQ.

We're going to be seeing an odd meta coming up, as a result of Nova Open and the newest round of FAQs. With a few more large-scale tournaments coming up very soon (i.e. Battle of Salvation), we'll start to see the meta with a little bit more clarity. But as it currently stands, spammed Flyers died horrible deaths at Nova. Infantry heavy armies, specifically in the troops department, were widespread. Part of this was due to the table quarters mission objectives and how vehicles did not provide scoring for this. That meant transports did little other than providing mobility to your forces. I'm not yet sure that this will be the norm, but one thing is clear: infantry-based/hybrid forces are here to stay. So we need ways to kill them.

I'm going to throw out some ideas on how to accomplish this. I would like you to blow my mind with out of the box suggestions. This can be with, or without, ally support. Some of this I've already mentioned in some form elsewhere.

Plasma in large quantities. Possible sources include plasma bikers, Command Squads with plasma, and IG allies -- Command/Veteran squads.
Torrent of fire. This can be found in a great variety of places when using allies, but for the Black Templars, its much more limited. Tactical Terminators and Dakka Predators are the primary sources in the codex.
Pie Plates of Doom! I'm looking at you Vindicators. Obviously, a cunning general can mitigate their effectiveness dramatically with proper spacing and cover, but they still have massive damage potential. Especially if you take more than one. IG also have this in the Manticore and Ordnance Batteries.
Lots of high strength/rending shooting! This requires the use of controversial ally selection, the Grey Knights. Yeah, yeah. I know...allies of convenience and all that. Witches. Blah blah. Fact of the matter is, these guys shoot things lots and things die. They are relatively cheap troop infantry for their kill power. Which is definitely not the case for our troops.
Close Combat. While close combat is becoming exceedingly difficult to properly engage in due to the transport nerfs, it is not lost. We still have units that are very good in that arena and others whom can make strategic strikes against our opponent's lines before they know what hit them. Hint: Our 5th Edition 10-man squads aren't it. Assault Terminators with a majority TH/SS fulfill this function perfectly. 15-20 man Crusader squads with Chaplains have a place (provided they are redundant) in our lists again. Just to name a couple.

I just listed five different things we can do. There are a couple more I've thought of, but they are more obscure and probably less effective so I won't list them yet. Let's see what you've all got for me. :)

30 Comments

Devjon link

9/16/2012 06:55:30 pm

Unfortunately I'm only familiar with codexes which we cannot take as allies, so I won't be able to offer much insight into them (aside from looking at other codexes for some helping close combat units, such as perhaps Blood Angels).

Instead of Grey Knights, we could outfit Terminators with Assault Cannons instead of Cyclones. Thanks to vehicle changes you don't really lose vehicle killing power so aside from range and blast templates it's a fair trade.

*Grabbing a ride for the Assault Terminators. Hurricane Bolters and Assault Cannon will dish out enough shots to do some damage. It will probably die but should absorb a fair amount of enemy firepower and can get your Terminators to the enemy that much faster.
*Assault Cannon and Heavy Flamer Dreadnoughts in Drop Pods. The medium Strength Template should do some damage to both entrenched enemies and hordes. The new Reserve and Drop Pod rules make them much more reliable in coming in so they won't sit in reserve for too long. And if you're really looking for it, a large Deathwind blast is pretty handy at killing infantry that it lands right near.

I wish there was a valid way of using a bunch of Heavy Bolters, but that's just wishful thinking unfortunately. Also unfortunately, I don't really have much experience to back these up with but I thought that at least some brain-storming could help out.

Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link

9/19/2012 11:44:16 am

Haha. No worries sir. Some input is better than none. ;)

Blood Angels Jumpers is an option I've looked at using for Drop Pod armies. The only problem is their HQ choice. 95% of all of the good BA lists revolve around a Librarian, which isn't an option for us. lol!

Terminators with Assault Cannons are definitely a nice addition to a list to provide high amounts of firepower. But I would still try and put the GK's in there, then use the Terminators to supplement that GK firepower. Why? For 230 points, you get a 10-man GK troops squad with 8x power swords, 2x psycannons, and 8x Str 5 storm bolters. For 255 points, you get 5 terminators with 2x AC's with Tank Hunters and 3x storm bolters. As you can see, there is definitely a difference in shots being generated. However, Terminators can shrug off a lot more shots than that GK squad can and can be used more aggressively to push the field. So the points differential is worthwhile.

Between "Abhor", running, and Righteous Zeal...I was charging with my terminators on the 2nd turn 85% of the time at Nova. While I'm convinced that the Land Raider is more durable now than it ever has been, it doesn't have SO much firepower that its worth the 265 points with that particular unit. I don't hold the same opinion when transporting a Crusader squad, however. The LRC there is extremely beneficial.

I think drop pod armies will work well against the majority of opponents in 6th Edition. Except GK armies that feature Strike squads, as they have a power that could possibly send them to the mishap table if you don't have the first turn. As I mentioned above, I'm trying to work up a list with allies to improve our Troops a little bit. Especially now that RZ forces us to move.

We can get a bunch of Heavy Bolters in singular squads, actually. It just requires Attack Bikes (150 points for 3-man squad) or Techmarine servitors. I'd have to look deeper to see if either would validate the cost, though initially, I'd probably say that the AB option would be a decent one if you wanted to go that route. They ARE more durable now.

9/23/2012 09:14:17 am

The problem with Attack Bikes is that you're better off spending 45 points to equip them with Multi-Meltas and use their Twin-Linked Bolters to target infantry. And by losing a Typhoon in the process you really need to fill in that anti-tank gap. And the problem with the Techmarine is that you're up to around the same points cost as the Attack Bikes but without the maneuverability or the durability.

John Stiening link

9/16/2012 11:44:01 pm

Assault terminators supporting blob infantry with 3 vindicators sounds like a great list. Black Templars have awesome looking storm shields, so painting them is a bonus as well.

9/19/2012 11:15:18 am

lol! Thematically, I definitely agree with you on that front! It would be scary as hell looking at all that coming at me! However, at the rate my scatter dice roll arrows...I'd be very concerned for the well-being of my marines. ;)

Aye, I'm definitely a fan of the FW storm shields. I finally put up the money to get them, since I needed the IG environmental suits anyway. I'm really happy with them. :)

Algesan link

9/17/2012 06:14:58 am

Firepower we can always get from IG, cheap but fairly durable scoring units we can always get from IG.

Don't forget our Typhoon Speeders, IMO a big mistake to dismiss them because of only having two hull points. They were always expendable and the major factor in their survival in a game was always long range. I'd run them as singles now, the changes to the cover rules took away the advantages to running pairs all the time.

What to do about flyer defense? The answer to that question will determine the viability of some lists. Flyer spam took a big hit at NOVA because they were new. The two I played with four flyers (FMC) each hadn't practiced with them and instead of moving and taking a shot elsewhere, they tried to jam everything together to shoot the unit they wanted to shoot (like you would with a tank) right then and lost control of the situation. I'd say flyers are a lot more deadly and a lot less worrisome than most people realize.

I've got some lists I'm polishing up after condensing down a bunch of the crap I wrote up. I'll post 'em when I get them near table ready. I'm tempted to take a day and write up a new BT FAQ just to see if I can get it done in a working day, just for fun. Just a FU towards GW that would make me feel better after the cluelessness of the first two versions.

I'm going two ways on lists, either mechanized dakka or Black Tide with IG blob. In most cases, I'm afraid I don't see much point in a Black Templar primary detachment, it is only needed if you want multiple Elite/FA/HS options from the codex. The problem, costs.

9/19/2012 11:29:26 am

IG give us a lot of options, but I'm too stubborn to simply delegate the BT to the secondary army. The problem is, they can't cover every faucet of our weaknesses. There is just some stuff that needs to come from our side of the list, simply because we do it better. And others because we need to meet the minimum FOC requirements for the list. ;)

Typhoons are in a tough place. They are definitely still useful, because they are 70 points. That is stupid cheap, as we all know. But what now concerns me is the HP on them. 2 isn't a whole lot of protection, especially when you consider that Str4 weaponry can now kill you. Is it still worth taking them? I'd still be inclined to say yes, so long as you keep them as far back from your opponent's shooting as possible.

As far as flyer defense go, I'm not sure the majority of players are so awesome at 40k that we can ignore flyers and kill them simply with our movement like Tony K did (though Njal helped). So I think just a single piece of dedicated anti-flyer protection is enough. Whether that is an Aegis Defense Line w/ Quad Gun or a flyer of your own...doesn't matter to me. The cheaper, the better in most cases.

9/19/2012 06:35:45 pm

Heh, either great minds think alike or this guy was eavesdropping on some of my conversations over the Labor Day weekend...

Reference for "Kill Them All" lists

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/09/40k-editorial-kill-em-all.html

BJP

9/18/2012 04:06:00 am

Hi all. How about this: 2xLRC, first one with assault termies and a chaplain, another with cc initiates, a chaplain and the emperor's champion. 2x10 of jump marines behind LRC, 3 vindicators, 2xshooty termies wiat assault cannon, another infantry unit and a squadron of landspeeders ? I always mess up distance charge so I hope this list should make it easier. What do you think ?

9/19/2012 11:48:33 am

Haha. If I had Army Builder up and running, I'd throw that list in there just to see now many points it'd run up to be. I'm not sure it'd all fit into 2k points...but I could be wrong. If it did, it would definitely be classified as a "Kill Them All" list (as Algesan likes to say). You'd not be going for objectives, just killing your opponent. Which isn't bad, but such a list has weaknesses that can be exploited by mobile opponents like Eldar/DE and Flyers.

I'll have to take the "idea" of this list and see if I can make something work in a 2k list (if it doesn't already fit). It has some holes that would need to be filled, but it sounds fun! :D

9/19/2012 06:20:44 pm

Heh, you might want to expand on the "Kill Them All" concept when you start writing articles. The basics for those following this: You must have lots of scoring units to win games, right? No, not really because you can build lists that are designed to "KTA" and blow your opponent's little scoring units away.

Doable? Yeah. The only way my four close losses were even close was because I was literally blowing my opponents' scoring units off objectives despite not being able to set up my shooting properly. (Note: this was a Necron list, not BT. I'm not going there, I'm still a bit pissed at MVB & GW over that one.)

Yeah, that list is over 2000.

Sharpie

9/18/2012 10:12:03 am

Sounds a bit grim really that we've gotten to this level with our tactics. Im going to actually say maybe BT work better as allies from here on out until the new codex arrives (and rumour is, soon enough) because Crusaders are mediocre at best. I tried an C:SM list recently with TLLC razorbacks and plasma close range/lascannon long range combat squads, with the former in the transport and the latter in cover, and that worked remarkably well. Crusaders pay a premium for TLLC Razorbacks, can't split up and can't be used as cheap lascannon teams. CC mech took a hit with the assault from transport rule change. Footslogging CC units are big expensive bullseyes with no invulnerable save, and to top it off they're nothing special in melee. Emperor grant me strength, how am I to use them if the meta in 40k is going towards massed scoring units?

9/19/2012 11:07:32 am

Perhaps, but we're Black Templars. 10,000 year holy crusade? Yep. That's still me. ;)

Haha, in all seriousness though, I like my BT. I want to play them as my primary list, so I'll continue to work to try and find ways to maximize the codex. Its what I've been doing since 4th Edition. It was no different last edition when I showed the world the amazing Gunline BT lists. People didn't like it, but eventually it grew on everyone. We'll figure out how to make them work. :)

I will agree that our Troops situation requires some...finesse. Perhaps more so than ever before. You highlighted several reasons why. But you can only take two troops via allies, so we're going to have to work with what we have to make the Crusader squad work. I'm just going to have to get going and pump my stuff out faster. I have ideas that are burning up over here.

Das Bee

9/19/2012 01:40:58 pm

I've been playing against a fairly limited set of opponents lately, but I've been having pretty decent success with my lists. I usually keep 2 or 3 crusader squads in TLLC razorbacks with a plasmagun. I've been playing around with another crusader squad in a godhammer LR with the EC (AAC, but abhor would probably be better) and a MoS with dual LCs. Then 3 typhoons and a LRC with assault terminators. I like the standard LR because it gives me flexibility to push forward with the terminators or stay back and shoot, and react to anything that reaches my backfield depending on the game.

BigDunc

9/20/2012 05:55:38 am

I agree with the others that say BT will be used as allies, if anything. But that doesn't mean BT in a primary role shouldn't be theorized about or explored. The foundational obstacle is the limited number of scoring units that we can field, which requires a very deliberate list building decision: 'kill them all' or allies for more scoring units.

Even if you go KTA, you'll probably need to bring in allies (which potentially dilutes a KTA list depending on what allied troop choice is fielded). I'm not convinced BT will be able to field enough pure BT firepower. Cyclone termies are still the better choice over assault cannon termies, for several reasons. If the meta is shifting towards something more non-mech-like, then Tank Hunters won't be as attractive. There's also going to be that increase in plasma weaponry which will shred tactical termies - best just stay out of range with cyclones. I think Typhoons are going to be a must. They are fragile, but they're cheap and can maintain distance from small arms and still be effective. Everything else in our FA slot is just too expensive. Our Heavy Support options are good though, but I think most people will just settle for Vindicators.

The LRC got nerfed in terms of firepower, so I wouldn't expect much out of it. It really is just a transport for assault termies (but with RZ and run, why not just buy more termies?). Crusader Squad in an LRC? There's only one reason to do so: protect a scoring unit throughout the game until it dismounts to capture an objective. And that's a big investment for one objective (alongside moving away from KTA).

IG seems like a good ally choice, but mostly for their firepower. Russes with heavy bolters is a solid choice alongside Vendettas for good anti-mech support. So basically BT and IG blob infantry supported by Termies, Typhoons, Vindicators, Leman Russes, and Vendettas. Hope for KTA alongside 50-60 scoring models.

9/23/2012 06:36:19 am

On the contrary. What could the BT contribute to another codex as an ally? Dual-heavy weapon terminators? Okay, maybe. I wouldn't go out of my way to get them though. Assault Terminators with Chaplain? Probably not...Blood Angels can do that too and gain FNP. I cannot think of anything that would make me want to take the BT as an ally. But we are BT players, so we have to make them work. We don't have a whole lot going for us, but we have enough to make games competitive and win.

The other stuff you said, I can at least partially agree with. :P

Nathan

9/20/2012 09:09:25 pm

In 2000 points you can run 3 vindicators (with POMS which may be wasted), 10 assault terminators, 3 blobs of 10 marines (with plasma and a power axe) with 8 neophytes, the Emperor's Champion and a Reclusiarch. Comes out to 1998 with AAC (for overkill) and the Reclusiarch having a plasma pistol and all the big squads having frag grenades. That's a lot of models on the board (69) and might be light on firepower but hard to deal with. The blobs would also be big enough not to get RZ'ed off of objectives.

I want to believe that something like Black Tide can work but this only has 4 plasma weapons on the board and probably gets hammered by armor. I know we can't effectively do MSU anymore unless they stay in rhinos or something similar but I'm really struggling to put together something that doesn't rely heavily on allies (which I don't really own).

9/23/2012 06:40:37 am

"...I'm really struggling to put together something that doesn't rely heavily on allies."

Now that is really the question, isn't it? Allies cover a lot of our weaknesses. But are the necessary? I'm not entirely certain that they are.

Trignama

9/22/2012 10:42:11 am

We need a new book end of story

9/22/2012 03:46:11 pm

Don't hold your breath.

9/22/2012 06:41:36 pm

Really, IIRC, some of the sources quoted in the Ciaphas Cain novels are from M42.2xx or 200 years after the last date in the rules fluff.

9/23/2012 06:21:41 am

While I certainly agree with that notion, we don't have one. Simply shriveling up and being the "easy win" isn't how I roll. So I'm going to continue doing what I am and look at things going forward.

ribster

9/24/2012 12:02:41 am

On the subject of a codex, I asked one of the guys from the design studio at Games Day yesterday, he said that as their is a range of minatures out there, they will continue to support them, he suggested that the fact it is quiet is a good thing, as they are focusing on doing a good job of them. I said well I live in hope, to which he replied 'probably good that you live in hope'. Take what you will from that...

9/24/2012 12:06:07 am

Quick important correction to my last, is 'as they are probably focusing on doing a good job of them', not 'as they are focusing on them', which implies that they in the process of doing so.

Obsulus Crux

9/25/2012 02:19:40 am

Hey ML, is it possible for BT to do a close combat drop pod army? Or rather is it plausible/competitive at all?

9/26/2012 05:25:19 pm

A close combat drop pod army will suffer terribly as they cannot assault the turn they come down, and they come down in bits. We also have the issue of not being all that awesome in close combat except with things like Assault Terminators and certain Independent Characters (though only relatively).

So if you can find out how to field durable, lethal units in large enough numbers to capture objectives, and do it all within a limited amount of points, then go a head and see if it works for you. But from what I can tell from my knowledge of the codex you won't be able to do it very effectively.

9/27/2012 02:56:35 am

In my opinion, such a list might be plausible, but difficult to implement. Devjon points to the issue: durability and lethality. Because DP units can't assault, they must be either durable (so they can assault next turn) or lethal (they have to kill things on the turn they land), and BT drop pod units lack both, at least in terms of point worthy investments.

That being said, I think a semi/competitive CC-drop pod army would be a very fun army to develop, but you'd definitely need an ally.

AkodoZealot

9/26/2012 03:22:56 am

From the small amount of games I managed to clock in the last few weeks a Chaplain led close combat squad in a Land Raider Crusader is as effective as ever, and with the nerf to other squads is comparatively better than ever. When those Rage hits come in we can slaughter marines with glee, and if they are not Fearless we can break them.

9/26/2012 06:44:49 am

The "kryptonite" list against the LRC is the Necrons. I played several games against LRCs leading up to NOVA and with premeasuring a *lot* of games can be played with Gauss weapons. Like lining up a bunch of Warriors right on the 24" line with Scarabs lurking in any convenient cover to one side.

The standard "Godhammer" pattern worked decently, I have to come and get it, plus it can house a short range nasty CC squad inside. The range gives it protection from Gauss and it doesn't take too much luck to still have a HP remaining when it is time to lunge forward 6", dump the squad 6" and then charge 2d6" into a squad of Necrons.

Pariah Stevo

10/2/2012 08:39:33 am

I have been useing plasma bunker squads(5 crusaders PG PC rhino) to great effectiveness. I also run 2 PotMS vindys. As for flyers, i take an ADL w/ Quad gun. It work way better than you thinks it will. Also if you run plasma bunkers, they can sit behind it and get a 4+ cover all game.
I like allies, but since a decent, non psyker HQ is hard to find, i find it more restrictive than its worth. I usually go all BT.

BT Community Question: Killing Stuff

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