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Evolving the Black Templars way

6/1/2013

18 Comments

 
As I have heard a great many people say over the course of the past few months, BT players are having more and more issues winning games.  We are, by far, the most dated of codices out there right now.  Daemons, Tau, and Eldar have all gotten updates.  Chaos Space Marines are a force to be reckoned with again.  Dark Angels are refreshed as well.  So where does that leave us?

I believe that we're still viable as an army.  We've gotten a few more tools to deal with flyers.  When done properly, assault is not an issue.  And we have reasonable ability in the shooting department.  Add in allies and we get much more in that department.  However, with all of the updates to the other armies, there are a few things that are becoming more and more critical in games.

The game is shifted from 5th Edition's need of vehicles, to 6th Edition's large squads.  But with the past few codex releases featuring units that are especially good at killing infantry, I can't help but wonder if transports might be worth their weight in gold again.  Perhaps I'm imagining things here.  Nevertheless, larger troop squads are still important to the game, as they are more survivable and provide more points in which to capture objectives.  So a combination of the two might be worth visiting.

There is also a dramatic need for torrent of fire in today's game.  The higher power, with the lowest AP value possible, the better.  That is why plasma has become popular once more.  It quickly deals with all types of armor, which is important when you need to focus fire something down quickly.  Assault Cannons have also come front and center for Imperial armies.  But let's face it, the Xenos/Chaos factions are getting fun new toys to play with and we need to start adapting.

Is it possible for the Black Templars to stay competitive as a pure force?  In very, very specific builds I would say yes.  Overall?  Without ally support, we're really showing our age.  But all is not lost.  I'm looking to build up our knowledge of what works and doesn't in this current meta.  So that means lots and lots of comments and brainstorming.  I'll start with a few notable things we need to think about.  A couple I mentioned before just a second ago.

  • Troops need to either MSU, durable, or large in size to be reliable objective takers.  The newer codices have great ways to combat small squads, so having sufficient numbers will be critical.  This also helps prevent easy kill points for your opponent.
  • Like yourself, your opponent will likely have hard to kill troops.  Or a large number of them (i.e. IG, Orcs, Nids, Cultists).  Torrent of fire is the best way to dealing with these threats.  High power, low AP ordnance is a close second.  But that secondary source is worthless against the following:
  • Monstrous Creatures.  We're all familiar with Tyranid MC's and how important it is to bring them down.  If they hit your lines, they'll wreck havoc.  With the introduction of MC's with shooting AND close combat abilities, we're seeing a 2D dynamic with them and its becoming essential to kill them if you want to remain in the game.  That takes torrent of fire or high power, low AP weaponry (the more accurate, the better...no blasts).  These guys are showing up with more and more redundancy, making it very difficult to deal with them.
  • Flyers/Flying Monstrous Creatures.  Early in 6th Edition, these things were not necessary to focus dedicated defense against them.  They simply did not do enough damage to warrant it.  Now?  Welcome to the rape-mobile if you don't.  Necrons, CSM, and Daemons can make you pay for not including any defensive measures.  Even the new Eldar codex with their Crimson Hunters can lay waste to strategic parts of your army (ESPECIALLY your flyers).  If you don't take flyer defense of some kind, preferably in the way of a flyer yourself, you're looking for a whole lot of hurt.
  • Mobility is as essential in 6th Edition as it was in 5th.  You need to be able to outmaneuver your opponent, or failing that, quickly form a defense.  If you don't, you've lost the initiative and you'll be on the losing foot all game.  Having mobility also gives you the opportunity to make late game objective grabs.
  • Distraction and/or initiative forcing units.  You have to have something that directs the focus of your opponent that has the ability to survive those attentions.  If you do not, you allow your opponent to make all of the targeting decisions without any stress.  And that is bad news.

Do you guys/gals have any more?  What kinds of things do we bring to our BT lists that counter the above?  How to we combine these into a singular list to become competitive?  Look outside of our codex if you need to, but remember:  the goal is to create a Black Templars army.  Not use them as allies themselves.  Let's see ya'll can come up with.  :D


18 Comments
Saythings
6/1/2013 11:28:28 am

I'm so glad I hit refresh before I exited Chrome out! Absolutely love your posts. Glad to see a glimmer of hope in the horizon.

I'm having some success with running 3 drop pods. Two full of 10man Crusaders (Melta/PFist) and an empty one for my Ven Dread w/ Hunters. Pairing that with a LRC with 14man Crus+Emperor for a quick 1-2 punch. Add in an Aegis with Marshall+CML all with Tank Hunters and you have threats all over the board.

Still get the good assault army you want as a BT and still have a variety of answers.

Reply
Saythings
6/1/2013 11:33:49 am

Forgot to add - I run a 8-man Assault Squad with 4 SS and all Melta Bombs.

This is fantastic against MC's. I suggest you test it in 6th. I'd even argue better than running 2 3-man bike squads with Meltas.

Example: Against TMCs, most of their guns at AP- so while they are running towards the enemy, you put the normal Assault Marines in the front and rely on 3+ Armor Saves. As you get into CC, you put the SS's in base to base first, so their AP2 MC Smash attacks don't phase them. You still get your 3++ save and all 8 of them as smacking at S8. 8 Attacks at S8 and any MC is going down. The bikers - Not so much. Assault Marines bring more wounds to the table and also don't get gibbed by Heldrakes as easily.

Sorry for the dbl post!

Reply
Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link
6/1/2013 12:42:13 pm

Aha! See? This is why I do posts like this. The Assault Squad has been terrible for so long, I sometimes forget it even exists in our codex. But you are definitely correct about one thing: these guys can definitely bring a whole lot of melta to the board real quick in very strategic areas if they survive. They are still fairly expensive, but what they bring to the table may be now worth it with how many MC's are now popping up (i.e. Daemon Princes, Wraithknights, Dreadknights, Daemons, etc).

EDIT: So, I took a look at the unit as you prescribed and it has some definite possibilities. The only change that I'd really put in would be to add 2x flamers to the normal initiates. Its one of the few places you can take multiples of that assault weapon and it gives your unit another dimension, for minimal extra cost. If there are few vehicles/MC's, they are good for anti-infantry duty. Plus, flamers make the unit a somewhat unattractive assault target due to the free 6 Overwatch hits. :)

The only problem is...its a 264 point unit. Pretty spendy. I won't lie, I'm having trouble trying to fit one into my 1850 point list without sacrificing my core. :P

Magoon
6/4/2013 01:22:56 pm

I'm still having success with fully loaded PA LRC and vindies. I do like to mix up a fast attack slot with 8 assault x2 flames and a jump chappy. Will have to try the SS though for MC. Hmmm weekend list forming.

Elsus
6/6/2013 05:25:10 pm

A trend I have been seeing in 6th, is the appearance of multiple MCs. In a recent tournament I have been to, I have seen Tau with triple Riptides, Daemons with FMCs, as well as Nids and CSM. Most notably were the Tau players tabling their opponents by turn 3 and 4.

We need quick and effective way of dealing with multiple threats as these units sometimes can be hiding in the far back of the other side of the board.

I don't think deathstar units are as viable as before. As the opponents can easilty tie you down with expendable throwaway squads. And at the same time if you are spending points in deathstar then you are not spending enough points for scoring bodies.

Thoughts?

Reply
Selfdepressor
6/9/2013 04:14:21 am

Do I think Black Templars can be competitive in an environment with triple Riptides, the infamous Necron Night Scythe/Wraith/Annihilation barge list, Helldrake spam and worse? No. Not at all. Especially not in their pure form.

Crusader blobs were terrible at the start of 6th and they're even worse now. Crusaders in Rhino's/Razorbacks are going to die very quickly thanks to hullpoints. And we're still paying a premium for them.

We don't have 'Torrents of fire' to speak of. With BT its like trying to blow bubbles in the general direction of the enemy.

In your Templarbubble 1850 list your long range firepower consists of 4 S8 AP3 shots. The majority of your firepower comes from the Veteran plasmagunners in Codex Imperial Guard. Basically, on the first turn you are blowing bubbles. In their first turns they're going to pop most of your transports without even breaking a sweat.

And then, following your logic in this blog post, you have no mobility. You begin to lose, rapidly.

By the time the new BT come out I'll have lost interest.

Reply
Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link
6/15/2013 03:10:06 pm

Of the archetypes that you've listed, only the Necron's present a legitimate concern. Sure the other toys are scary, but they can be dealt with. Heldrakes lack anti-tank/anti-vehicle weaponry if they upgrade to the Baleflamer. Also very expensive at 180 points each. Riptides are even MORE expensive, so the size of your army dramatically shrinks with more Riptides. Sure they can pack a punch, but they also can be neutralized fairly easy with CC. Like..real easy.

I don't buy this Rhino/Razorback hull point thing either. If you have enough vehicles on the board, they do not suffer from this so called nerf. I've well over a hundred 6th Edition games and I've not perceived this weakness. If I'm packing one or two vehicles, sure. However, I do think our Razorbacks are WAAAAAY too expensive now with the hull point change. So they are a no go.

Yes, my list is a little light on 1st turn firepower...but it has not been an issue against the most competitive lists. Definitely can squeeze more in, but its not about blowing everything away...just enough to win the mission goals. However, to humor you, I made some revisions.

HQ:
* Marshal {Warlord} w/ Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield, Terminator Armor, and Tank Hunters; 1 Terminator Command Squad Sword Brethren w/ Storm Bolter, Power Fist, and Tank-Hunters; 2 Sword Brethren w/ 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers, 2 Storm Bolters, 2 Power Fists, and Tank-Hunters; 1 Sergeant w/ Power Sword, Storm Bolter, and Tank-Hunters. [375]
* Emperor's Champion w/ Black Sword, Bolt Pistol, Armor of Faith, and the Vow: "Abhor the Witch, Destroy the Witch." [110]
* Company Command Squad {IG Allies}: 2 Veterans w/ 2 Lasguns and 2 Close Combat Weapons; 1 Veteran Heavy Weapons Team w/ 1 Autocannon; 1 Company Commander w/ Laspistol, Close Combat Weapon, Refractor Field, and Frag Grenades. [60]

Elites:
* Sword Brethren Terminators: 7 Assault Terminators w/ 4 Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields & 3 Pairs of Lightning Claws. [280]

Troops:
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Lascannon. [101]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Lascannon. [101]
* Infantry Platoon {IG Allies} [340]
~ Platoon Command Squad: 2 Veterans w/ 2 Lasguns and 2 Close Combat Weapons; 1 Heavy Weapons Team w/ 1 Autocannon; 1 Platoon Commander w/ Laspistol, Close Combat Weapon, and Frag Grenades.
~ Infantry Squad: 7 Guardsmen w/ 7 Lasguns and 7 Close Combat Weapons; 1 Heavy Weapons Team w/ 1 Autocannon; 1 Sergeant w/ Laspistol, Close Combat Weapon, and Frag Grenades.
~ Infantry Squad: 7 Guardsmen w/ 7 Lasguns and 7 Close Combat Weapons; 1 Heavy Weapons Team w/ 1 Autocannon; 1 Sergeant w/ Laspistol, Close Combat Weapon, and Frag Grenades.
~ Infantry Squad: 7 Guardsmen w/ 7 Lasguns and 7 Close Combat Weapons; 1 Heavy Weapons Team w/ 1 Autocannon; 1 Sergeant w/ Laspistol, Close Combat Weapon, and Frag Grenades.
~ Infantry Squad: 7 Guardsmen w/ 7 Lasguns and 7 Close Combat Weapons; 1 Heavy Weapons Team w/ 1 Autocannon; 1 Sergeant w/ Laspistol, Close Combat Weapon, and Frag Grenades.
~ Infantry Squad: 7 Guardsmen w/ 7 Lasguns and 7 Close Combat Weapons; 1 Heavy Weapons Team w/ 1 Autocannon; 1 Sergeant w/ Laspistol, Close Combat Weapon, and Frag Grenades.

Fast Attack:
* Stormtalon Gunship w/ TL-Assault Cannon and Skyhammer Missile Launcher. [125]
* Stormtalon Gunship w/ TL-Assault Cannon and Skyhammer Missile Launcher. [125]
* Vendetta {IG Allies} w/ 3 TL-Lascannons and Extra Armor. [130]

Fortification:
* Aegis Defense Line w/ Quad Gun. [100]

Total Points: [1847]


And before you say it, yes there isn't mobility as I mentioned was needed in this article. But due to the very high amount of bodies and potential squad count (based on opponent), we have the flexibility to walk if we need to. Though, admittedly it plays far more defensive than the previous list.

Reply
Wolan
6/9/2013 07:26:09 am

So, I'm a kind of neophyte of BT, but I think you are too focused on Crusader Squads. I tried a lot of list with CS as the core and I always died, fighting with anything what were not weak blob.

I think if we want to make good list with any chance in tournament, we will have to take cc units from BT and shooting units from allies.

Our main power in CC is Assault Termies. Very good option is thunder hammers squad for killing tanks and lighting claws squad for killing infantry. If you give them MoS leading them, you have re-roll to hit in charge.

With support fire of minimaxs (5 SM with heavy weapon and special weapon), tanks and allies, our CC units have chance to charge into enemy unit.

Flyers is our next problem - yep, we have Stormtalons and Stormravens, but I think IG Vendettas is better choice (3 TL lascannons, deal with it).

We will have a lot of troubles to come up with anything good, but I believe together we can give another chance to BT.

Not for nothing is said that only the best players play BT.

Reply
Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link
6/16/2013 11:18:35 am

What list are you referring to? If my mechanized Templarbubble...there is 3 5-man squads mounted in Rhinos. The other two squads are Veteran squads from the IG codex, which are mounted in Chimera. Which actually number more guys than the Space Marines. Hardly focused on CS. ;) So I agree with you, in 99% of our current configurations, allies are needed to be competitive.

As for the assault terminators, I agree with you. They are one of the few legitimate CC threats we have. At least, the most cost-effective of them. MoS is nice if you can afford it, but it also means you don't have an IC protecting" the CMLs in the terminator squad, as you won't have them via Terminator Command squad. You'll be taking them as a basic Terminator squad, which lacks any such invulnerable saves. Plus, the IC gives some CC punch to a squad that is somewhat blah in that respect. The re-rolls to hit are really nice if you can manage to get the MoS in the list, but I find it eats too many points.

We have access to more than enough flyer defense now, so that really isn't a concern. Its just spending the points on it and fitting it into a list. The IG's vendetta IS the superior anti-flyer of our choices. So if taking IG, definitely need one.

Reply
Haversack
6/12/2013 03:45:18 am

Also a Neophyte BT player here, I've been playing an escalation league with BT. We are up to 1k pts, but I have played several 1.5k and 1999+1 point games, and I have found that my most valuable units have been Typhoon Speeder Squads.

Jink and hull points have allowed them to survive really well in my games. In fact they are probably my biggest fire magnet now. Pretty fun against Tau when a 140 pt unit runs a 400pt crisis suit squad off the table(1.5k pt game).

Running 2 Squadrons( 3 typhoons each) gives me 12 missiles and 18 heavy bolter shots. The only issue I've had is when I don't have initiative and I loose 1 or 2 speeders first turn if I can't get good enough cover.

I've been OK footslogging some crusader squads with fists/melta since people have been too focused on the speeders.

Reply
Algesan
6/14/2013 08:53:29 am

Interesting....that is what made my Deep Strike list work, the killing was in the THDC squads and LS-Typhoon squads. Anyone could kill one or the other, but it seemed that focusing on one meant the other had a free shot at you. Unfortunately, the few times I've had my Speeders on the table...they died horribly and rather quickly.

Although if GW would just get rid of the stupid HQ tax on us...I probably would dust off my drop pods and try it out again.

Reply
Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link
6/16/2013 11:40:56 am

I won't lie, I am a really big fan of Typhoons. However...they eat points I need for anti-flyer defense. And that is what it ultimately comes down for me: the need for anti-flyer defense. They are cheap enough that I wouldn't even care about their durability, because they put out a helluva lot of damage until they die. It just eats me that 210 points of Typhoons can buy me a some good AF firepower.

Reply
Devil
6/18/2013 03:02:11 am

Marshal! Please check your twitter!

Algesan
6/19/2013 07:31:45 pm

Well, one of Stelek's better insights was that there are three ways to deal with flyers:
A. Go flyer heavy yourself and win the dogfight
B. Get some defenses tough enough for most opponents..i.e. a couple of decent flyers of your own and maybe a bit of ground fire
C. Ignore the darn things except to block them and win the battle by killing their ground forces.

I'm not a fan of C., but I see how it is doable now that I'm fielding larger model count lists...and had it pulled on me a couple of times. Just make sure that the flyer has nowhere to stop for a shot, which means you have to cover within 18" of it on any vulnerable vectors. You cannot make a mistake though, if for no other flyer, Necron TL Tesla with make you pay through the nose for any mistakes.

Algesan link
7/3/2013 04:40:02 am

As a thought problem, I'm beginning to think the severity (not the existence) of a lot of the issues with the BT nerfs from my POV come from my focus on NOVA. A "kill them all" gunline list with some CC punch can still be built, and probably work real well playing book scenarios.

However, with the NOVA meta changing the way 6h plays with its massive LOS blocking terrain and emphasis (which has gotten worse in some of the test scenarios where MVB tries to salvage Quarters) on large numbers of scoring units distorts the way 6th is usually played. Oh, we use LOS blocking terrain quite a bit locally, but not always, sometimes we have a lot of cover, but have the big hills and ruins on the edge, not in the center. What we certainly don't have is the super LOS blocker in the middle, which I used against Hydra & Quad gun AA options when I faced them.

Reply
Terran
7/27/2013 02:14:32 pm

Hey im just starting to get new imperial guard units and I was wondering what I should do with them I got a command squad 1 inf squad 2 heavy weapons and 2ish storm troopers the inf and heavy weapons are unbuilt. Right now

Reply
AdroitSquirrel link
7/31/2013 02:12:11 pm

Long time reader first time poster. Great read as always Laeroth. Last month I broke out a couple rhinos for old times sake and I haven't stopped using them since. What I've found helpful is to free them up by making bigger targets. I've had some success sticking a crusader squad in a LRC with Chaplain and Emperor's Champ. Opposite them I have either a bike squad with a Techmarine on a bike or an Assault Squad with Storm shields. My opponents have had to focus on one unit to keep them both from landing in assault on turn two. I've yet to run this against the new Eldar so I can't say how it would fair agains the run shoot run shenanigans.

Reply
Mrunoptimistic
8/7/2013 06:05:10 am

Well, the latest rumours that BT are getting absorbed in C:SM don't look good.

I'd look at it this way:

Pros:

-You've got all the new C:SM units
-You've got the entire updated C:SM armoury
-Redesigned existing units
-There could be a supplement

Cons:
-No new unique models
-New rules could make them bland and crappy
-It'll probably be another half decade before the prospect of a new Codex gets real again

Reply



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