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The List!  -- Slaughterhouse GT 2019

4/29/2019

14 Comments

 
Hello everyone!  Sorry about the delay...I was wavering back and forth for several days on the last little bits of the list, but now that the Spring Big FAQ 2019 has dropped, it essentially made up my mind for me.  Lots of changes, but I'll talk about the ones that I care about in a few moments.  So without further adieu, here it is!
~ Battalion Detachment (Black Templars) ~

HQ:

* Captain w/ Bike, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield, and The Crusader's Helm.  [121]
* The Emperor's Champion. [75]


ELITES:
* Terminator Assault Squad (1x Sergeant and 9x Terminators) w/ 10 Thunder Hammers, 10 Storm Shields, and 1 Teleport Homer.  [410]


TROOPS:
* Intercessor Squad (1x Sergeant and 4x Intercessors) w/ 1x Power Sword, 5x Bolt Rifles, and 1x Auxiliary Grenade Launcher. [89]

* Intercessor Squad (1x Sergeant and 4x Intercessors) w/ 1x Power Sword, 5x Bolt Rifles, and 1x Auxiliary Grenade Launcher. [89]
* Intercessor Squad (1x Sergeant and 4x Intercessors) w/ 1x Power Sword, 5x Bolt Rifles, and 1x Auxiliary Grenade Launcher. [89]

FAST ATTACK:
* Suppressor Squad (1x Suppressor Sergeant and 2x Supressors) w/ 3x Accelerator Autocannons and Grav-chuts.  [105]

* Suppressor Squad (1x Suppressor Sergeant and 2x Supressors) w/ 3x Accelerator Autocannons and Grav-chuts.  [105]

~ Battalion Detachment (Black Templars) ~

HQ:
* Marshal (Captain) w/ Teeth of Terra, Storm Shield, and Jump Pack. [103] *Warlord -- Master Swordsman*
* High Marshal Helbrecht. [150]


ELITES:
* Sword Brethren (1x Veteran Sergeant and 4x Veterans) w/ 5x Power Swords and 5x Storm Shields. [100]

* Sword Brethren (1x Veteran Sergeant and 4x Veterans) w/ 5x Storm Bolters and 5x Chainswords. [80]
* Sword Brethren (1x Veteran Sergeant and 4x Veterans) w/ 5x Storm Bolters and 5x Chainswords. [80]


TROOPS:
* Crusader Squad (1x Sword Brother and 4x Initiates) w/ 1 Combi-Plasma, 1 Heavy Bolter, 1 Plasmaguns, and 3 Chainswords/Combat Knives. [97]
* Crusader Squad (1x Sword Brother and 4x Initiates) w/ 1 Combi-Plasma, 1 Heavy Bolter, 1 Plasmaguns, and 3 Chainswords/Combat Knives. [97]
* Neophyte Squad (1x Veteran and 4x Scouts) w/ 5x Sniper Rifles and 5x Camo Cloaks. [80]


DEDICATED TRANSPORTS:
* Drop Pod w/ Storm Bolter. [65]
* Drop Pod w/ Storm Bolter. [65]


TOTAL POINTS/CP: [2000]/[11 CP]


Alright now, what are we looking at?  In previous versions of this list, I had large assault-oriented Crusader squads as a good core to take the middle of the battlefield.  While these performed very well, coupled with Chaplain Grimaldus...the list does not perform nearly as well when facing an Imperial Knight.  Specifically the Castellan.  But I suppose that can be said for any army facing one.  The best way that I've found to counter one has been to take a knight of my own, but with the new scoring rules for ITC and who can win Best General with a faction, I don't want to get lumped into the Imperium faction for taking a knight.  If I win, I want to be able to say it was with my army:  the Black Templars.

So, I had to go back to the drawing board and look at the Space Marines from the lens of:  What can I do to beat an IK?  Most of the time, you can simply ignore them and play the missions.  However, ITC missions tend to focus more on killing stuff rather than the board control missions of Nova Open/LVO.  Which becomes problematic when my meta has tons of supplemental Titanic units (usually Castellans).  With that being said, the just released Spring Big FAQ 2019 increased the cost of the Castellans 100 points via their main weapons and nerfed their strategem "Rotate Ion Shields" to give a maximum of 4++.  Huge nerfs to Castellans.  Couple those with the ITC changes and I will likely see less of them on the board.  That means dealing with these guys became easier.

What did I come up with then?  This has been the subject of a few emails my way and it was a tough one to answer.  Realistically, Space Marines do not function well against IK armies in general if you are trying to kill them.  The best way to beat them is via board control, since IK cannot hold ground.  Those lists can also soup to add in Astra Militarum to bubble wrap and add your boots on the ground.  And again, ITC missions.  So this is a bad match-up.  We CAN deal with single IK much better though, but they are still tough to kill.  There is typically three ways to do it:  1) Suicide melta squads.  2) Lascannon spam.  3) Lots of Thunderhammer/Chainfist attacks.  Space Marine armies in general cannot afford to sacrifice any units to this task when we already aren't exactly points efficient in the first place.  Lascannon spam is easier to accomplish, but its very points intensive.  Lascannon Crusader squads coupled with 3 Tri-Las Predators using Kill Shot will quickly kill an IK.  However, any opponent with any sort of experience will focus all of their firepower on the lead Predator to eliminate the ability to use that strategem.  Then you're sunk.  Thus, the last option seemed like it was more efficient.  But you need at least 10 to inflict ~14 damage (or a Captain/Lieutenant to bring that number up to ~21 damage) and 3CP to attack twice.  It also fits into the Black Templars playstyle/chapter tactics.

I considered a couple different units for this task, but ultimately, the Assault Terminators fit the bill the best.  Even with their hefty price tag, they are durable enough to survive the drop and resulting shots/combat coming their way.  With our Chapter Tactics, they have a 48% chance of making the charge.  Vanguard Vets could have theoretically done the same job, for less points...but you only have a 3+ save on a single wound model.  Say goodbye to those expensive Thunder Hammers.  A 10-man squad of Assault Terminators run you at 410 points.  Add in a Captain to buff them.  Huge investment for killing Imperial Knights.  But...these guys are good against literally every unit that isn't fast.  I felt that made them worthwhile, especially when coupled with the hugely important Company Veterans.   To buff those 10 Assault Terminators, I have a Captain on a bike so that he can catch-up with the deep-striking terminators and have the durability to survive getting there (9" aura with Crusader's Helm).  He also contributes to our close combat prowess with a Thunder Hammer.

I have 9 units (2 of them are the drop pods) dropping in my opponents face, it will hugely influence their deployment choices and actions during the game.  Do you Refuse Flank against the storm bolter/chainsword Veterans?  Or counter against JP Captain with Teeth of Terra and Master Swordsman who is pumping out on average 9 attacks (exploding attacks!) in combat?  Who by the way can FLY over units again after the FAQ release.  Do the block the Helbrect-led Veterans in close combat?  Then you got the Assault Terminators who can multi-charge a bunch of units if you wanted.  There is a ton of threats right away -- giving the army a massive Beta Strike.

To compliment my Beta Strike forces, I have 6 troop choices.  3 Intercessors with their sergeants taking Power Swords, who can also also assault if needed.  I have a Scout squad with Sniper Rifles who can take out specific characters if necessary.  And finally 2 min-maxed Crusader squads that are armed with ranged weaponry -- plasma and Heavy Bolters.  The Heavy Bolters can be used to activate "Hellfire Shells" to cause mortal wounds.  And finally, to help prevent overwatch, our 2 Suppressor squads will shoot targets prior to my Beta Strike units attacking to help prevent unnecessary.  They can also double as vehicle hunters.

This list should have enough duality to be successful, while still playing to the Black Templar's strengths/theme, and being fun to play.  What do you think?  :D

~Marshal Laeroth~
14 Comments
Blender
4/29/2019 10:53:00 pm

I think this is a cool list. Takes some finesse to pilot appropriately. I am not too sure about the terminators. I get that you need them to kill Knights but every time I deepstrike my assault terminators, they fail the charge and get shot off the board. Hopefully that doesn't happen to you. I just dislike the coin flip nature of them coming out of deepstrike. I see that you have two drop pods. I get that one is for the company veterans with the high marshal to deep strike some where, how about the other one? What goes in that one? I don't have suppressors. Let me know how they do in game! I like the combat nature of your list. It is very fluffy and competitive at the same time.

Reply
Marshal Laeroth (Admin)
4/30/2019 10:11:19 am

Yes, the list does require finesse. This is something I prefer with Space Marines, as we are not a blunt force army. We simply are not points efficient enough to warrant it.

You are absolutely right on the Assault Terminators. They are a 410 calculated risk, especially with highly mobile opponents. With that being said, the only way that they work is if I have multiple units doing the same deep strike thing to the enemy. 10 TH/SS terminators are 20 wounds @ 3++. That takes a lot of dedicated firepower, while ignoring the Helbrecht-led Veterans/EC, the 10 SB/CCW Veterans, the JP Captain, and potentially the bike Captain. Risky perhaps, but I'll enjoy every last second.

The second drop pod is for the two Veteran squads with storm bolters/CCW. They can both ride in the drop pod and go their separate ways once they hit the board. Each squad puts out 20 SB shots a turn, so they can easily clear bubble-wrap with the new rapid fire rules. They also throw out threat to draw attention from the assault units deep striking.

The Suppressors are kind of a new unit, but I feel they are useful to help prevent those overwatch shots that potentially gimp our squads.

Reply
Blender
5/6/2019 12:47:12 am

Thanks for your reply! That makes sense. Well I hope the assault terminators work out for you. Ahh, I see. The other storm bolters with storm shields go into the drop pod. I have a new question! I just wonder why you use intercessors over crusader squads now. Is it because they are more point efficient?

Marshal Arthur
5/2/2019 10:39:42 am

I've been lucky with my assault terminators against knights. So long as you have proper threat saturation your opponent has a tough time picking targets and since they're generally considered non-competitive that might influence the opponent's choice. A friend of mine plays knights a lot and my thundernators have consistently proven his biggest threat (well, that and the mortis contemptor with dual twin las).

Reply
Marshal Arthur
5/2/2019 10:40:18 am

*hammernators

Marshal Hortensius
4/30/2019 08:44:51 am

I was secretly hoping you'd post something that would work in my meta (and I don't think it will) so I can't rip off your style.

I think it's well thought out and has the tools to get the job done in addition to being "fluffy." Looking forward to hearing how you do.

Reply
Marshal Laeroth (Admin)
5/5/2019 05:49:42 pm

What is your meta like, if you don't mind me asking?

Reply
Marshal Hortensius
5/6/2019 08:28:01 am

I don't know how to define it because I play a lot of different players and lists. (Haven't played Drukhari or Tau yet, but other than that I've seen a good bit). What I can say is that I don't take Crusader squads because they are easy to pick up. (I run the Neophytes as scout squads to project "Abhor the Witch" and for area denial.) I think the new drop pod "wall" rule may help, but using them as a screen for a bunch of one wound models with a 3+ doesn't seem like a good idea to me. The Terminator squad seems awesome but someone with a "volume of fire" army can take that 410 points away from you fairly quickly if you don't deep strike them "just right."

Just as a "heads-up" I am not good at this game so please don't read this as me trying to tell you "how it really is." I come here for guidance and perspective that I don't get where I am locally, and it's nice to read about someone who has an idea of how to make things work where I have struggled to find that.

Reply
Marshal Laeroth (Admin)
5/6/2019 06:12:58 pm

@ Blender

So one drop pod will have 10 veterans with storm bolters/chainswords. Thus, the drop pod will be able to put down 40 bolter shots the turn they come down (20 from each squad). Then they have the possibility of assaulting and can put another 32 attacks on a target (16 from each squad) if they make the charge. Each unit only costs 80 points, so its highly efficient, deadly against GEQ, and does not hamper my list if they die.

As for the crusader squads, I would have them more...bulky...if I had the points to allow for it. Realistically, a 5-man Intercessor squad with a power sword puts out the same amount of attacks as a 10-man crusader squad (with the same durability). Crusaders are better when they are above 10 strong, but I could not not afford it. Thus, the other benefit of crusader squads kicks in...their ability to take three specialty weapons at 5-man squad sizes. So I took a couple.

@ Marshal Hortensius

Oh, don't you worry. I take criticism well and take people's experience in consideration and even learn from it, indirectly. So no worries!

I 100% understand that the possibility of losing the Terminators is there. It is a risk. However, it is one I am willing to accept. Pushing the competitive edge sometimes requires a little bit of risk. Plus, most competitive lists now have a rock unit. If I build completely balanced as is my very strong urge, I don't think I am going to be able to deal with those enemy rocks effectively. Not to mention, many of those counters have been nerfed...except Tau. But that is why I have Suppressors.

Reply
Blender
5/6/2019 07:15:32 pm

Thanks for your reply! I learned something new about the storm bolter CCW veterans!

Reply
Martin Sonesson
6/9/2019 03:12:01 pm

Hello! I am a complete beginner at 40k, but I have just started building a black templar army and I find your guides extremely useful. I have a question though. If I follow your list under your "Black templars 101" guide, what should I equip the initiates in the crusader squads with? I'm not talking about the initiates with heavy/special weapon options, but the remaining ones. From what I understand you can either give them boltgun or boltpistol + chainsword. What do you prefer?

Hope to hear from you :)

Reply
Marshal Laeroth (Admin)
6/15/2019 08:19:47 am

Hello to you! Thanks for reading and glad to see another BT out there. :)

To answer your question, it is my personal preference to arm my basic crusaders with Bolt Pistols and Chainswords if they are not dedicated shooting units. Though, I will say that the new Bolter rule makes this decision more difficult as it allows for the same amount of attacks, but at range. But in the end, I prefer the thematic nature of the close combat armaments...even if Bolters technically might be slightly more competitive.

Reply
Marshal Gaisgeach
12/28/2019 07:11:57 pm

Just played a game against a Guilliman castle team with 4 centrally located objectives and got crushed. 8/10 of my Assault Terminators died to overwatch shots after a failed charge onto their tank. They used a Strategem which allowed 3 other squads to fire overwatch including a tactical warsuit a relic daradeo dreadnaght and Aggressors. Kept the game fairly close by playing to the objectives losing 17-23.

Reply
Marshal Laeroth (Admin)
12/30/2019 09:51:47 am

Did you use this list? Sadly, with the current state of the meta, this list would not fair all that well. It would need adjustment, as its not even technically legal due to the new codex/PA2. But playing to the objectives is something that we will likely need to continue to do, as our CC-centric lists will need finesse to work.

Its unfortunate that your terminators fell to those overwatch shots. That is NOT mathematically reasonable to expect.

Reply



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