One of the things that I enjoy immensely about the game of Warhammer 40k is the list building aspect. Generally speaking, I'm quite good at it. I can spend hours analyzing and optimizing lists I've written to make them better on the battlefield. My latest Nova Open tournament list is no different. Since I've not had to change my original gunline list for so long, I've had to think about what I could possibly face at the tournament and build to cover those weaknesses as best as I can. Editors Note: This is a continuation of my first post here. There were a couple of things that I addressed in my last post that I wanted in my Nova Open army list. The first was a scary unit that would distract my opponent from shooting my fragile units. The second, a proper bubble wrap unit. Fortunately, the need for the latter can be mitigated via deployment, but it still would be nice to have. The former, is purely a luxury that I'd like to have. I don't have a close-combat punch in my list, which could be problematic against some opponents. Others mentioned that they were worried about my ability to deal with horde armies. To be completely honest, horde armies are fairly easy to deal with by virtue of them being foot based, so I don't have to specifically build my list around them. My first edition of my gunline featured Dakka Predators as an insurance policy, but that isn't completely necessary. I also lack melta in the list, which could be a big issue if my lascannons don't do their job. So I spent a good deal of time last night picking apart my list. Even though I liked it quite a bit, I decided that I sacrificed far too much firepower from the list to get those Vindicators. While their distraction value is amazing, I'm concerned with players properly spreading their forces out to minimize their effectiveness. I also took out the ISTs, which I was loathe to do because they provided me with two additional Troops units, dual-plasma, and excellent bubblewrap. Try as I might, I couldn't find the 70 points for them. Sad day. Yes, they were "easy" kill points, but they did it with style. I shall miss them. Looking over my past two lists, I made a couple of observations. The first list had lots of shooting, but there was nothing scary in it to dissuade shooting at the squishy stuff. There is also very little in the list to prevent enemy close combat units from wrecking my line. A bad round of shooting could potentially cause problems. The second list filled the bubblewrap hole, as well as providing a real big distraction for my opponent. But the problem with that was the fact that I took out way too much shooting to gain those things. The second list wouldn't be able to demolish my opponent's forces consistently on the first turn. In essence, it lost the edge on the Alpha Strike. All of these realizations brought me to the idea that I wanted some close combat deterrents for my force, while my guns did their work. Initially, I spent a great deal of time trying to fit a Marshal and a terminator command squad to accompany him. That would give him the dual-CMLs, as well as a power weapon from the Sergeant. In addition, his Rites of Battle special rule benefits all of our shooty crusader squads. So it fit the theme of the list, however, there was a small problem. This load-out is super expensive and I couldn't fit it in without REALLY sacrificing things in my list. No matter how I tried (even did a simple Castellan), I couldn't fit one in without destroying the list. That wasn't something I was willing to do. After this failed attempt, I thought perhaps a Marshal by himself would be sufficient. I worked him in and got a list that looked decent enough. But when I sat there and stared at the list a little bit, I decided that he didn't really fit in outside of his Rites of Battle. So he was removed from the list and I discarded him from the list building process. This prompted me to decide what I wanted to do with my list. What I ultimately decided was to go with the original plan of the list: maximizing the firepower potential of my list. What I was building was an Alpha Strike list. Something that could literally blast my opponents off the board. I couldn't dilute that, or else the list wouldn't be able to accomplish what it was designed to do. There had to be so many guns that I'm taking probability and throwing it on my side. Combine that with the durability of MEQ, and you've got a fearsome force. Now does that mean the list will have issues against CC-oriented deathstars? Maybe. But I'm attempting to cover as many holes as I can. And this is what I came up with: HQ: * Emperor's Champion w/ Black Sword, Bolt Pistol, Armor of Faith, and the Vow: "Abhor the Witch, Destroy the Witch." [110] Elites: * Sword Brethren Terminator Squad: 5 Terminators w/ 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers, 5 Storm Bolters, 2 Chainfists, 3 Powerfists, and Tank-Hunters. [275] Troops: * Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Lascannon. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons and Searchlights. [192] * Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Lascannon. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons and Searchlights. [192] * Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Lascannon. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons and Searchlights. [192] * Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Lascannon. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons and Searchlights. [192] Fast Attack: * Land Speeder Squadron: 2 Land Speeders w/ Heavy Bolter, Multi-Melta, and 2 Typhoon Missile Launchers. [155] * Land Speeder Squadron: 2 Land Speeders w/ Heavy Bolter, Multi-Melta, and 2 Typhoon Missile Launchers. [155] * Land Speeder Squadron: 2 Land Speeders w/ Heavy Bolter, Multi-Melta, and 2 Typhoon Missile Launchers. [155] Heavy Support: * Predator Destructor w/ Autocannon, Lascannon Side-Sponsons, and Searchlights. [126] * Predator Destructor w/ Autocannon, Lascannon Side-Sponsons, and Searchlights. [126] * Predator Destructor w/ Autocannon, Lascannon Side-Sponsons, and Searchlights. [126] Total Points: [1996] As you can see, its quite similar to my previous lists, but with a couple of changes. First, the Predators are packing Lascannons. This is to absolutely, positively ensure that all vehicle-based transports are out of commission as soon as possible. Yeah, they aren't nearly as good against infantry, but when all my enemy's fire support/transports are gone, they'll have to deal with my AT weaponry firing at their infantry. The other main change was the inclusion of three more Land Speeders. Yes, these ones have MM. Yes, I know that I've said you shouldn't arm them as such because it confuses them. However, I needed something in the list that could provide me with melta if I absolutely needed it. It'll give me an option against the LR-spam I know is out there. However, by adding one more into each unit, I gain so much more firepower in the list. It will allow me to play the vehicle cover game, as well as practically ensuring that an AV 10-11 vehicle is destroyed when they fire. For how cheap they are, this is amazing value and are key to the army's success. So what does the list suffer from? It is entirely, 100% shooting based. Our vow is taken because its cheap, but with the coming of Grey Knights and their psychic powers, some psychic defense is definitely useful. The ability to slightly "redeploy" could also come in handy against some situational opponents. However, because its not "Accept Any Challenge", that means our infantry are pretty bad in CC. So shooting all the threats down before that happens is essential to the list's success. Against the current tournament lists out there, it'll do extremely well. Its those random, off the wall lists that I'm more worried about. I can beat them, but it could be harder to accomplish. We still have minimal melta in the list, but at least its there in some form this time around. And finally, we still don't have any meaningful bubblewrap since I took out the ISTs. With the added firepower, this shouldn't be a problem, but its worth noting. This list contains 4 TL-Lascannons, 10 normal Lascannons, 16 Missile Launchers (4 Tank-Hunter), 3 Multi-Meltas, 3 Autocannons, 4 Plasmaguns, and 3 Heavy Bolters. That is a helluva lot of firepower. Even more than my gunline list has. Every unit other than the Emperor's Champion is firing on the first turn at someone in my opponent's army. My v1.1 list had 4 TL-Lascannons, 4 normal Lascannons, 10 Missile Launchers (4 Tank-Hunter), 3 Demolisher Cannons, 8 Plasmaguns, and 3 Heavy Bolters. As you can see, it was quite a bit less ranged weaponry than my new list has. I feel much more comfortable with this newlist, as it produces more redundancy for the list, which then allows for a more resilient list. Thoughts? :D Comments03/11/2011 6:04am
I like this much better. The 40x3 points extra you were paying for the Vindicators over Predators cannot possibly have been cost effective outside of a few match ups, so its a change in the right direction. 03/12/2011 3:21pm
Yeah, I'm much more comfortable with this list. When it came down to it, I didn't like having to pay so much for a distraction vehicle that could be neutralized by my opponent with proper deployment strategies. "This list contains 4 TL-Lascannons, 10 normal Lascannons, 16 Missile Launchers (4 Tank-Hunter), 3 Multi-Meltas, 3 Autocannons, 4 Plasmaguns, and 3 Heavy Bolters. Cory 03/13/2011 11:36am
How about swapping a predator for a standard equip dreadnought with venerable and tank hunter. @Cory, Might not be a bad idea for a choice, with a Predator gone plus the four leftover points, that would buy a straight MM/HF, EA Dread, or a TLLC/SB, EA Dread. Venerable could be done leaving base weapons and EA, but the only way to get to Tank Hunter is to lose a Multimelta or the Chainfists. BigDunc 03/13/2011 11:18pm
I like the list, ML. You'll wreck mech opponents, but I think you'll have some problems against all jumper and horde lists. 03/14/2011 7:15am
@Cory 03/14/2011 7:59am
This is a similar-styled list that I'm considering: Cory 03/14/2011 11:01am
Ld.10? You'll make good use of it with your crusader squads. As for your kinda sorta assault unit.. I think were getting a little overexcited here :P Double check that command squad. It is cheaper than the one I've been using with a Castellan leader. At a glance, I'd say you've forgotten to buy Terminator Armor for the Marshal. 03/14/2011 1:58pm
@Cory pg 32: "You may take a Command squad to accompany a Commander or Chaplain. See the other HQ entries for details. Terminator Command squads may only have characters or other models attached to them if these models are equipped with Terminator armour." 03/14/2011 6:00pm
Aye, this is true. They really only need to get their first couple of shots off while blocking LOS to the rest of my stuff. Then they can die if my opponent deems it necessary. Act of God 03/15/2011 12:33am
I must say I like the list you've posted at the top here, I wouldn't bother with the changes, ld 10 is nice, but are you really going to need it? Looking at the first list, I wonder, what if you dropped the chainfists, multi-meltas, replaced your vow with uphold the honour of the emperor and upgraded your destructors to annihilators? 7 tl-lascannons, 10 lascannons, 16 missile launchers, 4 plasmaguns, and 6 heavy bolters sounds really painful and the stuff you lose doesn't really seem to fit in with a gunline anyway (in order to make use of your chainfists and multimeltas you have to get closer than a gunline should, and abhor the witch makes you move closer if the enemy has psykers). 03/15/2011 2:15am
To be completely honest, of all of the things I'd thought about, I'd not remembered the possible upgrade for the Predators. While I don't normally advise using them, they'd fit the style of list I'm running. I can drop the chainfists, MM, and 1 Pred searchlight to gain the needed points to make the upgrades. This is why I posted the lists up. ;) Act of God 03/15/2011 11:33am
Just a thought here, but are the terminators necesary? If you drop the terminators from your list, and the multi-meltas from the land speeders, you can fit in 3 more land speeders. Cory 03/15/2011 7:48pm
Yeah the termies are necessary lol. 4 tank hunting missile shots (s9) and the ability to pen av10 and glance av11. More survivable and can be used in combat if needed. 03/15/2011 9:42pm
@Act of God Yep, Terminators provide durable counter punch. Amusing discussion, you get both sides, I think you need to stretch for that extra Terminator squad. 03/16/2011 10:20am
I agree that its useful in 'Ard Boys lists to have 3 Land Speeders per squadron. That is exactly the reason I said "at this points level". I was referencing the fact that my stance changed for 2500 points. At 2000 points, I think its too much, on too fragile a frame. :) Act of God 03/16/2011 1:40pm
I see your point guys. Happy to be corrected by more experienced players. In retrospect, the equivalent of four more lascannons and the added durability does seem worthwhile. The only problem I saw was the cost of Terminators, 275 points is a lot to pay for one unit (nowhere near what it could be, but...), that said, the Terminators should be useful. Even without the extra shots from the added speeders, you should have enough firepower to table most armies in 3-4 turns anyway. 03/27/2011 9:05pm
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