One of the things that I enjoy immensely about the game of Warhammer 40k is the list building aspect.  Generally speaking, I'm quite good at it.  I can spend hours analyzing and optimizing lists I've written to make them better on the battlefield.  My latest Nova Open tournament list is no different.  Since I've not had to change my original gunline list for so long, I've had to think about what I could possibly face at the tournament and build to cover those weaknesses as best as I can.

Editors Note:  This is a continuation of my first post here.

There were a couple of things that I addressed in my last post that I wanted in my Nova Open army list.  The first was a scary unit that would distract my opponent from shooting my fragile units.  The second, a proper bubble wrap unit.  Fortunately, the need for the latter can be mitigated via deployment, but it still would be nice to have.  The former, is purely a luxury that I'd like to have.

I don't have a close-combat punch in my list, which could be problematic against some opponents.  Others mentioned that they were worried about my ability to deal with horde armies.  To be completely honest, horde armies are fairly easy to deal with by virtue of them being foot based, so I don't have to specifically build my list around them.  My first edition of my gunline featured Dakka Predators as an insurance policy, but that isn't completely necessary.  I also lack melta in the list, which could be a big issue if my lascannons don't do their job.

So I spent a good deal of time last night picking apart my list.  Even though I liked it quite a bit, I decided that I sacrificed far too much firepower from the list to get those Vindicators.  While their distraction value is amazing, I'm concerned with players properly spreading their forces out to minimize their effectiveness.  I also took out the ISTs, which I was loathe to do because they provided me with two additional Troops units, dual-plasma, and excellent bubblewrap.  Try as I might, I couldn't find the 70 points for them.  Sad day.  Yes, they were "easy" kill points, but they did it with style.  I shall miss them.

Looking over my past two lists, I made a couple of observations.  The first list had lots of shooting, but there was nothing scary in it to dissuade shooting at the squishy stuff.  There  is also very little in the list to prevent enemy close combat units from wrecking my line.  A bad round of shooting could potentially cause problems.  The second list filled the bubblewrap hole, as well as providing a real big distraction for my opponent.  But the problem with that was the fact that I took out way too much shooting to gain those things.  The second list wouldn't be able to demolish my opponent's forces consistently on the first turn.  In essence, it lost the edge on the Alpha Strike.

All of these realizations brought me to the idea that I wanted some close combat deterrents for my force, while my guns did their work.  Initially, I spent a great deal of time trying to fit a Marshal and a terminator command squad to accompany him.  That would give him the dual-CMLs, as well as a power weapon from the Sergeant.  In addition, his Rites of Battle special rule benefits all of our shooty crusader squads.  So it fit the theme of the list, however, there was a small problem.  This load-out is super expensive and I couldn't fit it in without REALLY sacrificing things in my list.  No matter how I tried (even did a simple Castellan), I couldn't fit one in without destroying the list.  That wasn't something I was willing to do. 

After this failed attempt, I thought perhaps a Marshal by himself would be sufficient.  I worked him in and got a list that looked decent enough.  But when I sat there and stared at the list a little bit, I decided that he didn't really fit in outside of his Rites of Battle.  So he was removed from the list and I discarded him from the list building process.  This prompted me to decide what I wanted to do with my list.  What I ultimately decided was to go with the original plan of the list:  maximizing the firepower potential of my list.

What I was building was an Alpha Strike list.  Something that could literally blast my opponents off the board.  I couldn't dilute that, or else the list wouldn't be able to accomplish what it was designed to do.  There had to be so many guns that I'm taking probability and throwing it on my side.  Combine that with the durability of MEQ, and you've got a fearsome force.  Now does that mean the list will have issues against CC-oriented deathstars?  Maybe.  But I'm attempting to cover as many holes as I can.  And this is what I came up with:

HQ:
* Emperor's Champion w/ Black Sword, Bolt Pistol, Armor of Faith, and the Vow: "Abhor the Witch, Destroy the Witch." [110]

Elites:
* Sword Brethren Terminator Squad: 5 Terminators w/ 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers, 5 Storm Bolters, 2 Chainfists, 3 Powerfists, and Tank-Hunters. [275]

Troops:
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Lascannon. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons and Searchlights. [192]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Lascannon. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons and Searchlights. [192]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Lascannon. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons and Searchlights. [192]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Lascannon. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons and Searchlights. [192]

Fast Attack:
* Land Speeder Squadron: 2 Land Speeders w/ Heavy Bolter, Multi-Melta, and 2 Typhoon Missile Launchers. [155]
* Land Speeder Squadron: 2 Land Speeders w/ Heavy Bolter, Multi-Melta, and 2 Typhoon Missile Launchers. [155]
* Land Speeder Squadron: 2 Land Speeders w/ Heavy Bolter, Multi-Melta, and 2 Typhoon Missile Launchers. [155]

Heavy Support:
* Predator Destructor w/ Autocannon, Lascannon Side-Sponsons, and Searchlights.  [126]
* Predator Destructor w/ Autocannon, Lascannon Side-Sponsons, and Searchlights.  [126]
* Predator Destructor w/ Autocannon, Lascannon Side-Sponsons, and Searchlights.  [126]

Total Points: [1996]

As you can see, its quite similar to my previous lists, but with a couple of changes.  First, the Predators are packing Lascannons.  This is to absolutely, positively ensure that all vehicle-based transports are out of commission as soon as possible.  Yeah, they aren't nearly as good against infantry, but when all my enemy's fire support/transports are gone, they'll have to deal with my AT weaponry firing at their infantry.

The other main change was the inclusion of three more Land Speeders.  Yes, these ones have MM.  Yes, I know that I've said you shouldn't arm them as such because it confuses them.  However, I needed something in the list that could provide me with melta if I absolutely needed it.  It'll give me an option against the LR-spam I know is out there.  However, by adding one more into each unit, I gain so much more firepower in the list.  It will allow me to play the vehicle cover game, as well as practically ensuring that an AV 10-11 vehicle is destroyed when they fire.  For how cheap they are, this is amazing value and are key to the army's success.

So what does the list suffer from?  It is entirely, 100% shooting based.  Our vow is taken because its cheap, but with the coming of Grey Knights and their psychic powers, some psychic defense is definitely useful.  The ability to slightly "redeploy" could also come in handy against some situational opponents.  However, because its not "Accept Any Challenge", that means our infantry are pretty bad in CC.  So shooting all the threats down before that happens is essential to the list's success.  Against the current tournament lists out there, it'll do extremely well.  Its those random, off the wall lists that I'm more worried about.  I can beat them, but it could be harder to accomplish.

We still have minimal melta in the list, but at least its there in some form this time around.  And finally, we still don't have any meaningful bubblewrap since I took out the ISTs.  With the added firepower, this shouldn't be a problem, but its worth noting.

This list contains 4 TL-Lascannons, 10 normal Lascannons, 16 Missile Launchers (4 Tank-Hunter), 3 Multi-Meltas, 3 Autocannons, 4 Plasmaguns, and 3 Heavy Bolters.  That is a helluva lot of firepower.  Even more than my gunline list has.  Every unit other than the Emperor's Champion is firing on the first turn at someone in my opponent's army.

My v1.1 list had 4 TL-Lascannons, 4 normal Lascannons, 10 Missile Launchers (4 Tank-Hunter), 3 Demolisher Cannons, 8 Plasmaguns, and 3 Heavy Bolters.  As you can see, it was quite a bit less ranged weaponry than my new list has. 

I feel much more comfortable with this newlist, as it produces more redundancy for the list, which then allows for a more resilient list. 

Thoughts?  :D
 


Comments

03/11/2011 6:04am

I like this much better. The 40x3 points extra you were paying for the Vindicators over Predators cannot possibly have been cost effective outside of a few match ups, so its a change in the right direction.

If you drop the chainfists on the termies, and a speeder you can add a min 5 man squad with lascannon for a cheap 5th scoring troop. It may be worth playtesting to see how important a 5th scoring unit is.

Right now the only real inefficiency I see are the chainfists, which I doubt you'll need once in the whole tournament.

And it's minor amounts of points, but you don't need search lights on the Predators and the Razors. One or the other, probably Razors since you know they will be there turn 1 dawn of war.

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03/12/2011 3:21pm

Yeah, I'm much more comfortable with this list. When it came down to it, I didn't like having to pay so much for a distraction vehicle that could be neutralized by my opponent with proper deployment strategies.

The chainfists are there mainly for wound allocation. You're probably right: they won't get used much because of the sit back nature of the unit. But they might be. If I found a better use of the 10 points, I'd make use of it. But right now, I don't really have anything that jumps out at me. As for the searchlights, I was just being thorough, since there wasn't really another use for the extra points. ;)

An extra CS is an option, one I'll explore should my playtesting prove to need one more scoring unit. I don't think I will, but we'll find out.

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03/13/2011 7:15am

"This list contains 4 TL-Lascannons, 10 normal Lascannons, 16 Missile Launchers (4 Tank-Hunter), 3 Multi-Meltas, 3 Autocannons, 4 Plasmaguns, and 3 Heavy Bolters.

My v1.1 list had 4 TL-Lascannons, 4 normal Lascannons, 10 Missile Launchers (4 Tank-Hunter), 3 Demolisher Cannons, 8 Plasmaguns, and 3 Heavy Bolters. "

My current Deep Strike list (the current list is only half pod, 6 of 11 units) has:
1 TLLC (TH), 20 Missile Launchers (8 TH), 6 H Bolters and 5 Melta. I'm currently thinking about losing the TLLC (TH) by converting the Ven Dread carrying it into either an Assault Term squad or a Sword Brethren squad for a CC punch unit. A command squad is also possible. Or since I got a deal on him, I could field Grimaldus for fun (I might do that anyway).

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Cory
03/13/2011 11:36am

How about swapping a predator for a standard equip dreadnought with venerable and tank hunter.
S6(7) assault cannon is basically 2 rending autocannons. It's also arguably harder to kill than a predator, can assault vehicles if needed (after shooting at it) at effective s11. And then there's those cc units who get too close...
Get rid of the chainfists as the cyclones give you allocation, drop all the searchlights and I think you're just about there. Don't have the codex on me. Oh and I think you can put a heavy flamer on the close combat arm, another utility.

Just an idea :). There would be other ways of fitting this in but I think this one does less to change how the army shoots as a whole.

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03/13/2011 1:15pm

@Cory, Might not be a bad idea for a choice, with a Predator gone plus the four leftover points, that would buy a straight MM/HF, EA Dread, or a TLLC/SB, EA Dread. Venerable could be done leaving base weapons and EA, but the only way to get to Tank Hunter is to lose a Multimelta or the Chainfists.

If he loses two of the Predators and the three Multimeltas then he could add another Terminator squad. So, losing 2 Autocannons and 4 Lascannons, plus three Multimeltas it would add in 4 Tank Hunting ML and 3 Heavy bolters. It also adds 10 TH storm bolter shots at 24".

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BigDunc
03/13/2011 11:18pm

I like the list, ML. You'll wreck mech opponents, but I think you'll have some problems against all jumper and horde lists.

If you want to Vassal play-test it let me know.

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03/14/2011 7:15am

@Cory
I definitely did run down the possibility of doing that in my head when you mentioned it. I am, however, admittedly quite hesitant about dropping my Predator numbers below 3. Mainly because of the "Rule of Three's", but also because the Predators provide my very fragile force with durable front armor. Because my Razorbacks can shoot over the top of the Predators via LOS, they will be providing very important vehicle-based cover to my Razorbacks/infantry (AV13 laughs at Str 7/8). Losing one exposes quite a few of my forces to incoming fire.

While I'm not tossing the idea yet, I'm leery of putting the Ven Dread with AC into the list because of its lack of range. In addition, even if its hard to kill, it isn't hard to shake/stun with its AV12. Still, I may make the change due to my desire for a counter-assault (bubblewrap) unit.

@Algesan
I'd like to fit in another Terminator squad, but I don't know where I'd pick up the points to do so without sacrificing so much in the list to do it. Losing Predators causes my list to become much more fragile as a whole, as well as losing armor saturation. If I lose Land Speeders, I lose quite a few Missile Launcher/Melta/Heavy Bolter shots. I could take out Troops, but I'm leery of doing this as well for obvious reasons (though, I'm considering this option).

We'll see. It might happen, it might not. There is still some time yet before Nova, but I want to get the kinks out now before I'm scrambling to get painting done last minute. :D

@Bigdunc
I try to avoid Vassal whenever possible, and to be honest, I've not played it in so long I'd have to relearn the entire program. But I'll keep you in mind.

As for the horde armies, I honestly am not concerned with them in the least. I have enough AI to deal with them and even if I didn't, I don't need a whole lot of dedicated weaponry to beat them. It'd be nice, but in my experience, not necessary. Infantry have huge weaknesses: tank shocks, lack of AT weaponry, take up lots of space. When the time comes, if it comes, I can exploit these weaknesses. I AM a little bit concerned with Jumper armies though, but I think I can mitigate their effectiveness via deployment.

@Everyone
The searchlights stay, at least on the Razorbacks. With Mission #1 being Dawn of War each day, I'll have to play at least 2 games with Nightfighting. Possibly up to 4, due to Mission #4 being a roll off of the three possible missions. That means I cannot afford to not be able to shoot on first turn, especially when the primary mission goal is KP. :O

Keep the suggestions coming. I'm considering everything I get, and after I get a few play-testing games in, we'll see what needs to be changed up. :)

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03/14/2011 7:59am

This is a similar-styled list that I'm considering:

HQ:
* Marshal w/ Storm Bolter, Power Weapon, and Krak Grenades; Terminator Command Squad: 4 Terminators w/ 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers, 4 Storm Bolters, 1 Power Weapon, 3 Powerfists, and Tank-Hunters. [327]
* Emperor's Champion w/ Black Sword, Bolt Pistol, Armor of Faith, and the Vow: "Abhor the Witch, Destroy the Witch." [110]

Troops:
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Lascannon. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons and Searchlights. [192]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Lascannon. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons and Searchlights. [192]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Lascannon. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons and Searchlights. [192]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Lascannon. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons and Searchlights. [192]

Fast Attack:
* Land Speeder Squadron: 2 Land Speeders w/ 2 Heavy Bolters and 2 Typhoon Missile Launchers. [140]
* Land Speeder Squadron: 2 Land Speeders w/ 2 Heavy Bolters and 2 Typhoon Missile Launchers. [140]
* Land Speeder Squadron: 2 Land Speeders w/ 2 Heavy Bolters and 2 Typhoon Missile Launchers. [140]

Heavy Support:
* Predator Destructor w/ Autocannon and Lascannon Side-Sponsons. [125]
* Predator Destructor w/ Autocannon and Lascannon Side-Sponsons. [125]
* Predator Destructor w/ Autocannon and Lascannon Side-Sponsons. [125]

Total Points: [2000]

Lose the three MM's, the chainfists, and the Pred's searchlights. Gained 3 Heavy Bolters and a Marshal. This will give me army-wide Ld 10, which I desire, as well as a kinda/sorta counter-assault unit if needed.

I lose my emergency melta, but I gain more anti-infantry. Not sure how I feel about that. I think I might like the first list better, but I'll sleep on it. :)

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Cory
03/14/2011 11:01am

Ld.10? You'll make good use of it with your crusader squads. As for your kinda sorta assault unit.. I think were getting a little overexcited here :P
you don't have AAC, furious charge or any decent gear on the marshal, the difference he will make is negligible.
The dreadnought remains a far better option in this regard but I fully understand the need of 3 av13s to block 4 av11s, especially since you know there will be KP games

if you go with a marshal, find 10 points for a holy orb! I find them very very effective at dealing with close combat units. Think of wyches or incubi with ultra high initiative. Combat will get messy but drop a holy orb on them can seriously hurt and tip the scales. The same can be said for assault terminators and most other dedicated assult troops. It's also handy for an up close and personal emergency glance if all else goes pear shaped. 4+ glance on a land raider, sure I'll take that, it'll help your s8 to glance it to death :D

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03/14/2011 1:19pm

Double check that command squad. It is cheaper than the one I've been using with a Castellan leader. At a glance, I'd say you've forgotten to buy Terminator Armor for the Marshal.

Note that vs armor, a TH Cyclone firing Krak is as good as a TL Lascannon, with the benefit of hitting twice if you roll two hits. Yes, it doesn't work as well against AS 2+, but what the heck, nuke them with the heavy bolters.

@Cory, the Term Cmd Squad is a hybrid in use, albeit a pricy one with the commander. You get the commander with his benefits plus the free PW from the Sgt and whatever you equip the HQ with. It gives you 3x I5 PW attacks and 2x I4 PW attacks base. Maybe not much, but especially the I5 gets a shot to clean out some targets in most units, although not against dedicated CC ones. In the meantime you still have those TH Cyclone and Storm Bolters. Also, remember with the TH, vs vehicles the +1 still applies, so those are ST9 Powerfists when hitting them.

The other consideration is TH makes the Storm Bolters effectively ST5 vs vehicles, which means glancing AV11 is possible. The nicest thing about the Term Cmd Squad is the fact that it can deploy during DoW, which makes for a lot of early firepower.

As for me liking a Terminator Cyclone squad over even a pair of Predators, I think the they are more survivable and against most targets will be more killy. A Predator does have nice AV13. On the front. Only. One thing I have noticed with my Speeders, it is real easy to do what I did in my first games with an Exorcist, creep around to get a flank shot. Set up a cross fire to assure it.

I'm actually so sold on the Terminators, I'm almost ready to dump one of my Speeders and the Venerable DN for another squad of them, but... that loses me any kind of counter charge unit (well except for my troops and with AACNMTO, that is always a good thing). So it will probably be Assault Terms or maybe, the elite SB squad I've fiddled with or maybe a Cmd squad.

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03/14/2011 1:58pm

@Cory
Like I said, a kinda-sorta counter-assault unit. lol! I don't have AAC, but I do have the 3x I5 PW attacks on the Marshal, as well as the 2x I4 PW attacks on the Sergeant. I gave the Marshal a storm bolter so he could fire with the rest of the squad, but I'll see if I can squeeze 10 points. In the end, it was just a side list that I was considering.

@Algesan
Remember, the Commander himself doesn't need Terminator armor to use a terminator command squad. Only other ICs that intend to attach themselves to the unit. The codex makes a very subtle differentiation that allows it.

As for the AV13 on the Predators, I think I'll have to show how to deploy to make use of this. Its actually quite easy to make sure your opponent doesn't have side shots to your predators without gaining cover. I guess there is a lame name for it, something like the Marine Box. Anyway, the front armor is really only important on the first turn where you need the protection prior to blowing your opponent away, especially if you don't have the first turn.

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03/14/2011 5:46pm

pg 32: "You may take a Command squad to accompany a Commander or Chaplain. See the other HQ entries for details. Terminator Command squads may only have characters or other models attached to them if these models are equipped with Terminator armour."

Sorry, I don't see the break there. I know why that rule is in place as far as game balance goes.

Lots of ways to preserve the flanks, but as soon as you lose it, then they start dying.

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03/14/2011 6:00pm

Aye, this is true. They really only need to get their first couple of shots off while blocking LOS to the rest of my stuff. Then they can die if my opponent deems it necessary.

Remember that most other opponents (except Dark Eldar) don't have that mobility to skirt the sides for the side shots. We do, because our Typhoons are ridiculously cheap. Other SM chapters don't have it so good and have to pay 90 points for theirs, so don't use them often as they aren't as cost effective. I guess Orcs do too if they have Deffcoptas. But those are things that will be early targets for me, because they have that big mobility. :O

As Bigdunc put it, drop lists could potentially cause problems for me because they can drop with relatively accuracy where ever they desire. Problematic to be sure, but not unbeatable. :/

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Act of God
03/15/2011 12:33am

I must say I like the list you've posted at the top here, I wouldn't bother with the changes, ld 10 is nice, but are you really going to need it? Looking at the first list, I wonder, what if you dropped the chainfists, multi-meltas, replaced your vow with uphold the honour of the emperor and upgraded your destructors to annihilators? 7 tl-lascannons, 10 lascannons, 16 missile launchers, 4 plasmaguns, and 6 heavy bolters sounds really painful and the stuff you lose doesn't really seem to fit in with a gunline anyway (in order to make use of your chainfists and multimeltas you have to get closer than a gunline should, and abhor the witch makes you move closer if the enemy has psykers).

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03/15/2011 2:15am

To be completely honest, of all of the things I'd thought about, I'd not remembered the possible upgrade for the Predators. While I don't normally advise using them, they'd fit the style of list I'm running. I can drop the chainfists, MM, and 1 Pred searchlight to gain the needed points to make the upgrades. This is why I posted the lists up. ;)

I want to keep Abhor, because it allows me to reposition if necessary, as well as gives me some basic Psychic defense (not great, but something is better than nothing). Plus, with the huge amounts of cover in the game, I'd hate to lose that in exchange for 6+ invulnerables. :(

I got to playtest the list that I posted here in the comments against a SW Loganwing list. Needless to say, he conceded on his 2nd turn (he went 1st) after he didn't get any of his 2nd half of his army. I lost 1 predator and 2 marines on the first game turn, but I essentially tabled his 1st half of his army in one turn of shooting. Not bad. We played the Nova Open 2011 Mission #3.

Leads me to believe that I've hit a niche and even I was surprised by the amount of firepower I was putting out. It was devastating. :D

I might just have to make that change, as the Marshal wasn't totally needed, but he WAS helpful. He throw down a preemptive assault down on Logan's unit that wrecked face, though it did result in the Marshal dying. But with how I remember the dice rolling, the end result would have been very similar with a normal terminator unit.

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Act of God
03/15/2011 11:33am

Just a thought here, but are the terminators necesary? If you drop the terminators from your list, and the multi-meltas from the land speeders, you can fit in 3 more land speeders.

How about:
HQ
Emperor's Champion w/ Black Sword, Bolt Pistol, Armor of Faith, and the Vow: "Abhor the Witch, Destroy the Witch." [110]

Troops:
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Lascannon. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons, Extra Armour and Searchlights. [197]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Lascannon. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons, Extra Armour and Searchlights. [197]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Lascannon. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons, Extra Armour and Searchlights. [197]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Lascannon. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons, Extra Armour and Searchlights. [197]

Fast Attack:
* Land Speeder Squadron: 3 Land Speeders w/ 3 Heavy Bolters and 3 Typhoon Missile Launchers. [210]
* Land Speeder Squadron: 3 Land Speeders w/ 3 Heavy Bolters and 3 Typhoon Missile Launchers. [210]
* Land Speeder Squadron: 3 Land Speeders w/ 3 Heavy Bolters and 3 Typhoon Missile Launchers. [210]

Heavy Support:
* Predator Annihilator w/ Twin-Linked Lascannon, Lascannon Side-Sponsons, and Searchlights. [146]
* Predator Annihilator w/ Twin-Linked Lascannon, Lascannon Side-Sponsons, and Searchlights. [146]
* Predator Annihilator w/ Twin-Linked Lascannon, Lascannon Side-Sponsons, and Searchlights. [146]

Total 1996

Gives you 7 Twin-Linked Lascannons, 10 Lascannons, 4 Plasmaguns, 18 Missile Launchers and 9 Heavy Bolters for the same cost as your initial list and the only thing you really lose is a few power fists (that shouldn't be necesary anyway) and a tiny bit of durability.

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Cory
03/15/2011 7:48pm

Yeah the termies are necessary lol. 4 tank hunting missile shots (s9) and the ability to pen av10 and glance av11. More survivable and can be used in combat if needed.

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03/15/2011 9:42pm

@Act of God
While I liked the first suggestion, I don't think I can agree with the second one.

While you do technically gain more firepower by adding the Land Speeders, they ruin the ability to manipulate cover because you have to risk more than a single speeder to terrain. In addition, you're taking away a unit that is quite durable against shooting, and replacing it with AV10 in a squadron. Remember that the Land Speeders are much more fragile in squadrons (immobilization kills them).

You also lose the ability to shoot at another target in your opponent's army, which is extremely important for a gunline list. With two Land Speeders, you already have a 47% chance to kill AV 11. Pretty good chances if you ask me. Adding any more is overkill at this points level, in my opinion.

Plus, all of the other things Cory mentioned. The ability to be used as emergency bubble wrap shouldn't be under-estimated. I used them like that last night and it was critical to my win.

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03/16/2011 10:10am

Yep, Terminators provide durable counter punch. Amusing discussion, you get both sides, I think you need to stretch for that extra Terminator squad.

Immobilize kills but stunned gets ignored. I'm looking at an Ard Boyz list and the first thing I did at 2500 was up it to three triple Speeder squadrons, but I'm not so sure about it.
A) It is harder to put them in cover
B) Greater chances of the extra death
C) Higher threat level and number of vehicles in the squadron make it a more viable target for dedicated AT platforms like the Predators which actually have a decent chance of killing two Speeders in a squadron.

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03/16/2011 10:20am

I agree that its useful in 'Ard Boys lists to have 3 Land Speeders per squadron. That is exactly the reason I said "at this points level". I was referencing the fact that my stance changed for 2500 points. At 2000 points, I think its too much, on too fragile a frame. :)

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Act of God
03/16/2011 1:40pm

I see your point guys. Happy to be corrected by more experienced players. In retrospect, the equivalent of four more lascannons and the added durability does seem worthwhile. The only problem I saw was the cost of Terminators, 275 points is a lot to pay for one unit (nowhere near what it could be, but...), that said, the Terminators should be useful. Even without the extra shots from the added speeders, you should have enough firepower to table most armies in 3-4 turns anyway.

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03/27/2011 9:05pm

The article is worth reading, I like it very much. I will keep your new articles.

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