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So by now, most of the competitive players around the world know that Tony Kupach has won Nova Open 2010 and Adepticon 2011 with his Space Wolves list.  Considering the much improved nature of this year's Adepticon and the congregation of internet blow-hards, that is pretty impressive.  It shows that the guy knows what he's doing. 

But that isn't what I'm here to talk about today.  Examining his lists, you'll find that both versions contain a few key elements that has contributed to their effectiveness.  Because I've gotten several emails regarding the matter, I thought we'd take a look and see if we can take those pieces and use them in our own BT lists.


First off, the lists are important to see.  You can find his Nova Open list here and the Adepticon list here.  It is important to note the points differences.  Even so, you can start to see some similarities between the two.  We have a scout unit, a core of 3 Rhino-based Grey Hunter squads, and 2 Razorback-based Grey Hunter squads.  In addition, there is at least two Long Fang units in the lists to provide long range fire support.  Very solid core.

The roles of the Long Fangs are quite easy to understand, but what of the Scouts and GH units?  Scouts in the Space Wolves codex are pretty darn good.  They are capable of carrying melta weaponry, as well have accurate Outflanking with their special rules.  These guys are definitely backfield disruption for your opponent. 

Most lists contain troops and Tony's lists are no different.  He prefers a higher count than most lists, seemingly to create a target priority issue, as well as redundancy for his forces.  The larger "portion" are devoted to AT, with Wolf Guard hopping in to provide a combi-melta shot.  They can also compete in close combat due to their Wolf Banners.  The two Razorback units are more suited towards AI duties with their flamer, but gain duality from the TL-Lascannon mounted on the transport.  It is likely these guys come in behind to claim objectives after the assault elements of the army roll through.

So can we take these elements from his proven lists and replicate them with an older codex?  Techmarine Lucion believes its possible and took the time to email me about it.  He even brought his thoughts to bear in the comment section of this blog post.  I think Lucion's thoughts have merit, so let's take a closer look. 

** Please note:  This is taking his idea and putting my own spin on it.  I apologize for any mis-understanding regarding that matter! **

There are several things that the SW codex has that we cannot replicate, namely the HQs and Wolves (Thunder Cavalry/Fenrisian Wolves).  But we also don't have Scouts or dual-melta units (from Wolf Guard).  But that is okay, I think we can replace them sufficiently enough in other places.  For those things that we can't, we'll just have to bring something else to the table to take advantage of the things the BT do well with.

First off, we need a HQ unit.  The most obvious choice is the Emperor's Champion.  More so because we're required to take him.  But that is okay, because we're going to use it to our advantage.  He gives us 'Accept Any Challenge', which will make up for the fact that we cannot purchase Wolf Banners in our troops.  Preferred Enemy will allow us to conserve the attacks we have and make our units more efficient in close combat, creating a credible threat to our opponent.  We don't need the other HQs because we simply do not have anything that compares with a Wolf Lord on Thunder Cavalry or a Rune Priest.  We'll make up for it elsewhere in the list.

Next up, we have the Wolf Guard and Scouts.  We don't have either of those.  Great.  But perhaps we can create some Scouts from our elites.  Hehe.  Finally a use for our Sword Brethren unit!  While marginally more expensive than Scouts with a meltagun (20 points), they still have the ability to Infiltrate and Outflank (albeit not as accurately).  The extra point costs are okay, because we're paying for the 3+ armor saves, which I would rather have anyway.  That dramatically improves their survivability.  The Sword Brethren are still able to fulfill the disruption role in your army, much like the Scouts did for the Space Wolves, and will provide a legitimate threat to your opponent with their melta weapon and CC abilities.  Or you could use them to block Scout moves.  You just don't get the nice special rule that improves Outflank.  Oh well, can't have everything.

What about Long Fangs?  We don't have anything that comes close to them.  This is true, in a way.  But we do have something that acts similar, but is much more expensive.  Can you guess?  Nah, don't worry, I won't make you squirm.  Tactical Terminators with dual-CMLs and Tank Hunters.  Pick up two of these units and you have a far more durable unit than the Long Fangs and put out almost as much firepower.  They are far superior in CC compared to Long Fangs and Tank Hunters gives the unit the edge against vehicles as well.  Plus, if infantry comes within 24", you can use their storm bolters in conjunction with the CMLs to blast huge holes in the incoming horde.  The only thing that Long Fangs do better is their split fire ability, and the fact that they are so cheap.  But they are only in power armor, so are easy to blast away.  Thus, we have our Long Fang "replacement", but in a more durable form.

Recreating the Troops core is rather easy to do.  We'll take 3 Rhino-based CC units with Meltagun and Power Fist, as well as 2 Razorback-based Flamer units.  Mathematically, there is very little difference between the two codices in this respect.  While our units do not have "double melta" because we don't have Wolf Guard and their ability to take combi-meltas, we can make their utility in CC very similar.  This will make their melta less reliable, but are marginally better at winning an assault due to Preferred Enemy.

Finally, Tony K's list features Fenrisian Wolves to compliment his Wolf Lord on a TWC mount.  We simply do not have anything that can compare in terms of CC, but this unit plays a shock utility role for Tony.  Utility is something we can do.  Not only that, it'll give us some additional reliable long range firepower.  Which is never a bad thing!  Toss in 3 Typhoons for 70 points each and we'll call it good!  To be honest, while the Wolf Lord and Wolves are very nice, I almost would rather have the duality that the Typhoons provide.  Their usefulness and maneuverability cannot be expressed enough.

So what does that give us?

HQ:
* Emperor's Champion w/ Black Sword, Bolt Pistol, Armor of Faith, Frag Grenades, and the Vow: "Accept Any Challenge, No Matter the Odds". [140]

Elites:
* Sword Brethren Terminators: 5 Terminators w/ 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers, 5 Storm Bolters, 5 Power Fists, and Tank-Hunters. [265]
* Sword Brethren Terminators: 5 Terminators w/ 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers, 5 Storm Bolters, 5 Power Fists, and Tank-Hunters. [265]
* Sword Brethren: 5 Initiates w/ 4 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons, 1 Meltagun & Infiltrate. [105]

Troops:
* Crusader Squad: 7 Initiates w/ 5 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons, 1 Meltagun, 1 Bolt Pistol and Power Fist & Frag Grenades; 2 Neophytes w/ 2 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons & Frag Grenades.  Mounted in a Rhino w/ Smoke Launchers. [219]
* Crusader Squad: 7 Initiates w/ 5 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons, 1 Meltagun, 1 Bolt Pistol and Power Fist & Frag Grenades; 2 Neophytes w/ 2 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons & Frag Grenades.  Mounted in a Rhino w/ Smoke Launchers. [219]
* Crusader Squad: 7 Initiates w/ 5 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons, 1 Meltagun, 1 Bolt Pistol and Power Fist & Frag Grenades; 2 Neophytes w/ 2 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons & Frag Grenades.  Mounted in a Rhino w/ Smoke Launchers. [219]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 4 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons & 1 Flamer. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons and Smoke Launchers. [179]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 4 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons & 1 Flamer. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons and Smoke Launchers. [179]

Fast Attack:
* Land Speeder: Heavy Bolter and Typhoon Missile Launchers. [70]
* Land Speeder: Heavy Bolter and Typhoon Missile Launchers. [70]
* Land Speeder: Heavy Bolter and Typhoon Missile Launchers. [70]

Total Points:  [2000]

We have long range AT firepower from the Terminators and Typhoons (14 Missiles; 8 of which are Tank Hunter).  We also have a bit of melta from our Sword Brethren and Crusader Squads.  And lets not forget the Razorbacks and their twin-linked Lascannons.  For AI duties, we can easily delegate the Terminators and Typhoons to the role.  But our Crusader Squads are perfect for this as well should they get into CC.  Even better, our Razorback squads will be happy to jump out and flame away horde infantry before charging into battle.  Perfect for clearing out or camping objectives.  ;)

What do you think?  Would you change anything?  How do you think the list would perform against the national/international tournament scene?  I think the lists look pretty damn close to Tony K's Nova Open list.  I'd even be willing to wager that the BT have the upper hand due to the Typhoons and AAC.  But perhaps its my bias talking.  Let's hear your comments and discussion.


UPDATED (11-6-11):

HQ:
* Castellan w/ Lightning Claw, Storm Shield, and Frag Grenades.  [106]
* Emperor's Champion w/ Black Sword, Bolt Pistol, Armor of Faith, and the Vow: "Accept Any Challenge, No Matter the Odds." [140]

Elites:
* Sword Brethren Terminators: 5 Terminators w/ 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers, 5 Storm Bolters, 5 Power Fists, and Tank-Hunters. [265]
* Sword Brethren Terminators: 5 Terminators w/ 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers, 5 Storm Bolters, 5 Power Fists, and Tank-Hunters. [265]

Troops:
* Crusader Squad: 7 Initiates w/ 5 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons, 1 Meltagun, 1 Bolt Pistol and Power Weapon & Frag Grenades.  Mounted in a Rhino w/ Smoke Launchers and Searchlights. [215]
* Crusader Squad: 7 Initiates w/ 5 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons, 1 Meltagun, 1 Bolt Pistol and Power Weapon & Frag Grenades.  Mounted in a Rhino w/ Smoke Launchers and Searchlights. [215]
* Crusader Squad: 8 Initiates w/ 6 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons, 1 Meltagun, 1 Bolt Pistol and Power Weapon & Frag Grenades.  Mounted in a Rhino w/ Smoke Launchers and Searchlights. [232]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 4 Bolters and 1 Flamers.  Mounted in a Razorback w/ TL-Lascannons. [176]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 4 Bolters and 1 Flamers.  Mounted in a Razorback w/ TL-Lascannons. [176]

Fast Attack:
* Land Speeder Squadron: 1 Land Speeder w/ 1 Heavy Bolter and 1 Typhoon Missile Launcher. [70]
* Land Speeder Squadron: 1 Land Speeder w/ 1 Heavy Bolter and 1 Typhoon Missile Launcher. [70]
* Land Speeder Squadron: 1 Land Speeder w/ 1 Heavy Bolter and 1 Typhoon Missile Launcher. [70]

Total Points: [2000]

 


Comments

05/21/2011 5:39pm

I think that it is a solid list, but I have a few changes that I would make.

First off, I would switch the Vow to 'Abhor the Witch'. I'm not sure what Njal Stormcaller does but I would bet that it includes some Psychic abilities and Abhor is the closest we've got.

Next, I would drop the Sword Brethren. If you really want a squad to strike in the enemy's deployment zone with Melta, Spend the extra 15 points for a Crusader Squad in a Drop Pod. You scatter, but you won't end up on the wrong side of the board, you have a Drop Pod to hide behind and draw his fire, and you're scoring in case you come on late game.

Switch one of the Terminator Squads for 2 Auto/Las Predators with Extra Armor and Smoke; for anti-tank you get an extra 4 S7 shots and you can split your fire.

'Accept Any Challenge' no longer makes Initiates as much better than Neophytes so switch those three squads to 6/3 rather than 7/2.

I was going to say to replace the Flamers with either Plasma Guns or Heavy Bolters, but then I realized that the only time you would get out of your transport to use those weapons, you could use the Flamers to better effect. So keep those for now.

So, with those changes we've freed up 152 points (not replacing the Sword Brethren). That won't get us much but it will get us a Marshal for Rites of battle, which is of more importance for Black Templar than it is for Space Wolves. Give him a Storm Shield, Lightning Claw, and Frag Grenades for 121 points. 31 points left, get Extra Armor on all of the Transports, switch one of the Neophytes back into Initiates (in the third Rhino squad) and you're at 2,000 points. So it will look like this:

HQ:-231

Emperor's Champion: Vow (Abhor) -110

Marshal: Storm Shield, Lightning Claw, Frag Grenades, -121


Elites:-265

Terminator Squad (5): 2 CMLs, Tank-Hunters, -265


Troops:-1,028

Crusader Squad (6/3): BP/CS, Meltagun, PF/BP, Frag Grenades; Rhino: Extra Armor, Smoke Launchers, -218

Crusader Squad (6/3): BP/CS, Meltagun, PF/BP, Frag Grenades; Rhino: Extra Armor, Smoke Launchers, -218

Crusader Squad (7/2): BP/CS, Meltagun, PF/BP, Frag Grenades; Rhino: Extra Armor, Smoke Launchers, -224

Crusader Squad (5): BP/CS, Flamer; Razorback: Twin-Linked Lascannons Extra Armor, Smoke Launchers, -184

Crusader Squad (5): BP/CS, Flamer; Razorback: Twin-Linked Lascannons Extra Armor, Smoke Launchers, -184


Fast Attack:-210

Land Speeder: Heavy Bolter, Typhoon Missile Launcher, -70

Land Speeder: Heavy Bolter, Typhoon Missile Launcher, -70

Land Speeder: Heavy Bolter, Typhoon Missile Launcher, -70


Heavy Support:-266

Predator: Autocannon, Lascannon Sponsons, Extra Armor, Smoke Launchers, -133

Predator: Autocannon, Lascannon Sponsons, Extra Armor, Smoke Launchers, -133

Total Points: [2,000]

So, for long range firepower we've only got 10 missiles (4 of which are tank hunting) but we have an extra 4 Lascannons and 2 Autocannons. Less combat effectiveness than your list but at least we have some Psychic defense. We lost that suicide melta squad but gained Ld 10 across the board (notably in 5 more squads) for when it comes to Righteous Zeal and Kill them All. And finally, a slight drop in Anti-Infantry since we lose 4 Frag blasts and a squad armed with bolters; but that is traded for improved Anti-tank, better vehicle saturation, and I feel that we still have sufficient anti-infantry.

Reply
lucion
05/21/2011 5:42pm

Lol this is funny and slightly upsetting. There must be a mis understanding.

I wrote some pretty sucky lists on 10th of may. I accept that lrc and vindi sucks ok. On the 17th I wrote a full of kupach analysis for bt [wrote about 2 hours of thoughts]. Today I find for representing myself on kupach your using the sucky list from the 10th of may and disregarding my work on the 17th.

Hope you can see things from my pov..

Reply
05/21/2011 6:35pm

@ Lucion
I understand completely. I had not yet taken into account the discussion on the previous blog post regarding the matter, so I have amended the post to credit you having the idea.

Due to time constraints, I simply could not address everything and I didn't know what you wanted me to address (hence the reason I asked if you wanted me to disregard the previous email made). You said you'd like me to discuss the Kupach analysis there, and the applicable portion of that email was what I posted. The article itself took about 3 hours to write, including the list building.

It wasn't even the list to me, rather the idea behind the list that I was referencing. I apologize for the misunderstanding there.

Reply
lucion
05/21/2011 6:55pm

Thanks for the change. Much better representation, sorry for moaning just written so much here. Girlfriend is moaning now grrr. Will get back soon.

I think the most important thing for bts is the core of kupach list.

that's the troops.

Consider kupach used nyal and In the final game vs stelek nyal only killed 2 marines and a storm bolter.

Perhaps a lrc is viable after all?

Ps i think this could be a use for sb but as dev said a pod maybe better. Ah so much excitement and fresh thoughts. Back soon..

Reply
05/21/2011 7:48pm

@ Devjon

Yes, there are definitely problems in the list. Namely the Sword Brethren, as they do not compare to Wolf Scout's accurate Outflanking. However, the list itself is a rough draft to emulate Tony's list. Does that mean we should? Perhaps not, but we need a place to start. It isn't necessarily meant to be a direct counter to his list, rather to replicate it with our codex.

As for your suggested changes, I'll address Njal first. Yes, he's a psyker. He has access to all of their spells. But he's only got 2 wounds at a 2+ armor save, but no invulnerable save. And he costs 245 points. Most players take him for his "Lord of Tempests" special rule. I personally don't believe in such point expenditures.

In addition, while psychic powers are dangerous, this list isn't tooled like a gunline is. Psychic defense is nice, but isn't required. It needs AAC to be effective, without it, the troops might as well be 5-man because they won't be effective in combat without it.

The drop pod suggestion is a possibility instead of Sword Brethren, because you cannot guarantee the place you'll outflank to. I mainly used them because they were cheap and fulfilled a very close niche as those scouts. It can be changed. ;)

I, however, don't really care for the change to the Terminators. The reason I decided not to go with Predators (while fundamentally a good choice) was because there wasn't a whole lot of long range shooting in the list. As such, what I did add needed to be highly durable and provide duality to the list. They are also useful in CC and can redeploy without a loss of effectiveness. Auto/Las Predators can easily be shaken (or destroyed) to neutralize them. In addition, they don't fulfill duality nearly as well. In this particular list, I just don't like the Preds as much.

The Marshal I don't feel is as useful without AAC, though he is definitely something worth looking at if you keep it.

Reply
05/21/2011 10:33pm

@ Marshal Learoth

Yes, your list does replicate his as well as I think we can. But what I was trying to do was improve it while maintaining a similar style. But in his list the Scouts seem almost an afterthought, not meant to be a good part of the list almost. I think that a Marshal would do much better than them for the points as we cannot have a unit quite as good, more cost and less reliability.

But the exchange of Terminators for Predators is one I can no longer stand by. Between now and when I posted I have come to the realization (largely from your comment) that it is not an automatically better option, mostly from the Shaken results and the ability to move 6" every turn and fire at full capacity. SO I understand your reasons here.

In the end, the only real change I can encourage is a Marshal instead of the Sword Brethren. Give him a Storm Shield, Storm Bolter, and 5 more points of equipment and he costs the same while providing a greater utility to the rest of the army than the Sword Brethren, or even a Melta Drop, can provide unless it is done well.

Reply
lucion
05/22/2011 5:55am

If taking a marshal I say make him a cc beast. We don't get thunder cav mount but we use aac. Use it. Storm bolter and ss seems a waste he's not effective in cc but has a storm shield for what? If you invest 80 pts in one guy, and he has aac, he is not a threat with a ss and shield.

Reply
05/22/2011 7:15am

I'm going to have to read some more breakdowns on how the list was actually played, but looking at his 2k list, some things pop out. First, target priority is straightforward. The two Lazorbacks have to go, but I already have the two Tank Hunting dual Cyclone Terminators and those will probably put paid to them. If need be I can commit Typhoon fire to them to finish them, but I'd prefer to use them to beat down the Long Fangs.

As soon as those are eliminated it becomes a matter of popping the rest of the transports, dealing with the TWC and cleaning up. My five Crusaders in pods will do for providing anywhere on the board flexibility of deployment and my Assault Terminator squad fulfills the bubblewrap/countercharge slot to deal with leakers.

Lots of melta in there, but then I don't have many vehicles and they can all outrun the melta units. The main thing is to keep them away from my Terminators as long as possible.

I don't know the full capabilities of the TWC and Njal, but this looks (in theory) to be a straight beatdown of LR firepower and mobility followed by killing. Of course, this list just won two big tournaments, so I may be talking out of my arse, but why strain to build something close when we have all the tools already in the Drop/DS lists?

Reply
lucion
05/22/2011 7:21am

Replication has come on well and I am convinced it is a solid list. Most important the core.

Now is there a way to make better use of what templars can do that sw can't?

How about dropping the over priced razors, lose a rhino and instead of the marshal get a lr or lrc using the "come on reserve" after 2 or 3 rounds of terminator shootyness.

The razor squads change to 5 ini, 1 ml and 2 neo for a survivable and well priced alternative but do the same thing as tonys list pretty much.

Lr is at least equivalent in points and has option to pick up terminators and charge them 12+3+6 inches into
Enemy territory as opposed to dev terminators walking and getting shot medium range before they assault with aac.

Reply
lucion
05/22/2011 7:30am

My argument for a lr as being viable is 2 reasons.

1. If tony can use a 240 pt character with 2 wounds which in the final game vs stelek kills 2 marines and a storm bolter, well, I will try my chances for 10 or 25 pts more with a raider.

2. Bt 101 was very good but our transports still suck ass. Taking the tony list we pay on average 110 points more than space wolf for taking our rhinos 15 points more x 3 and razors 35 points more each piece.

Reply
05/22/2011 1:05pm

@ Devjon

Oh, I know sir. That is why I posted a list in the first place. Suggestions, tweaks, and comments are perfectly accepted. I may not take them to practicality, but I'll always explain why. Never fear to attempt to rip up my lists. It prompts discussion! ;)

The Scouts actually do play a very important role for him. Often in games, your opponent is cunning enough to where he's able to deploy and advance in such a fashion that you're not able to break through his lines and contest their objectives. Or they have a unit far into their deployment zone that you just can't hurt. That is where the Scouts come in. They Outflank in and either assault those pesky shooting elements, or they contest objectives and force your opponent to deal with them. Which takes attention from the rest of your forces. They are the only unit in the SW codex that I'm envious about.

I don't think the addition of the Marshal would be a bad thing. I'll see if I can squeeze one in. I would probably change his wargear up a bit though, as he'd be rolling around with one of the crusader squads and I'd like to buff their combat ability if I'm spending the points on a commander.

@ Algesan

Basically, I'm replicating because I can. This exercise isn't necessarily to create an army that can beat Tony's (I have all my other lists for that), but taking elements from his list and attempting to bring them into the BT. Those core pieces are what made his list balanced and successful, so at least looking at it cannot hurt.

One of the advantages Tony had (according to his opponents) was the fact that he had so many Rhino chassis on the board. It was difficult to eliminate all of them before they hit different parts of your lines. But, he also had some things that Space Wolves do well (i.e. Wolves/Scouts) that helped. We have to take our own advantages to make the list work, and that is what I'm trying to do. :D

And yes, frankly, I don't think my gunline would have any trouble beating Tony. He would probably not like playing me, but on the other side of the coin, he'd probably maul a horde player. Whereas, I'd have a much tougher time beating that horde army.

@ Lucion

"Now is there a way to make better use of what templars can do that sw can't?"

That is the goal sir. :)

Remember that Rhinos are 15 points extra (as you said), but so are Razorbacks (90 points for us, 75 for them). We make up the difference in cheaper Typhoons, as well as not spending an arm and a leg on HQs. I really don't buy into HQ-hammer at that points level. Unless that character is ridiculously good (nothing comes to mind). :D

As for the list changes, I'm weary of removing transports from the list. It decreases the armor saturation and instead of 5 chassis, they only have 2. Making shooting them easy-mode. Not only that, the squad has to walk if they need to get someplace (which prevents them from firing).

I think a Land Raider...might...work in a list like this because of the armor saturation. But besides doing very minimal messing with the troops (they are our core), what would we remove to get it in? And would it be worth the expenditure?

I do agree the Marshal needs to be changed. I'm more apt to add one if he's armed with a LC and SS. Relatively cheap and efficient. That way those crusader squads are more efficient as well.

Reply
05/22/2011 1:46pm

Updated list (v1.1)

HQ:
* Marshal w/ Lightning Claw, Storm Shield, and Frag Grenades. [121]
* Emperor's Champion w/ Black Sword, Bolt Pistol, Armor of Faith, Frag Grenades, and the Vow: "Accept Any Challenge, No Matter the Odds". [140]

Elites:
* Sword Brethren Terminators: 5 Terminators w/ 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers, 5 Storm Bolters, 5 Power Fists, and Tank-Hunters. [265]
* Sword Brethren Terminators: 5 Terminators w/ 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers, 5 Storm Bolters, 5 Power Fists, and Tank-Hunters. [265]

Troops:
* Crusader Squad: 6 Initiates w/ 4 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons, 1 Meltagun, 1 Bolt Pistol and Power Fist & Frag Grenades; 2 Neophytes w/ 2 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons & Frag Grenades. Mounted in a Rhino w/ Smoke Launchers. [202]
* Crusader Squad: 6 Initiates w/ 4 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons, 1 Meltagun, 1 Bolt Pistol and Power Fist & Frag Grenades; 2 Neophytes w/ 2 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons & Frag Grenades. Mounted in a Rhino w/ Smoke Launchers. [202]
* Crusader Squad: 8 Initiates w/ 6 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons, 1 Meltagun, 1 Bolt Pistol and Power Fist & Frag Grenades; 2 Neophytes w/ 2 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons & Frag Grenades. Mounted in a Rhino w/ Smoke Launchers. [236]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 4 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons & 1 Flamer. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons and Smoke Launchers. [179]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 4 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons & 1 Flamer. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons and Smoke Launchers. [179]

Fast Attack:
* Land Speeder: Heavy Bolter and Typhoon Missile Launchers. [70]
* Land Speeder: Heavy Bolter and Typhoon Missile Launchers. [70]
* Land Speeder: Heavy Bolter and Typhoon Missile Launchers. [70]

Total Points: [1999]

Alright, as you can see, I added a Marshal to the list. In exchange, I dropped the Sword Brethren. While I think they would have been semi-useful as a disruptive unit, it would not have been reliable. I also dropped one initiate from two crusader squads, and added one initiate to the remaining CC crusader squad. As you can probably imagine, the IC's will go with the 8-man units and the other crusader squad now has the optimal combat size. No other changes. I still think the list is fairly solid, even if it loses a disruption unit.

Thoughts? Do I need to change more stuff now? Or revert to the previous one? Let's keep the discussion going. :D

Reply
05/22/2011 2:35pm

I admit, I was not thinking perfectly when I suggested the Marshal's set up. For a close combat list it would be better to fit him out for close combat.

If you want a disruption unit then I would find a way to fit in a command squad with only a couple of Meltaguns and an Apothecary in a Drop Pod with the Marshal. The two Meltaguns plus Drop Pod would give them enough reliability for their role. But that would detract from the rest of the list, a detraction which would not be worth the effect. Unless you dropped one of the Crusader Squads entirely and replaced it with a Command Drop Squad intended to stay around after their Melta job was finished.

I don't know, it is a possibility but I have no way of knowing how effective it would be on my own.

Reply
Lucion
05/22/2011 3:04pm

First of all it seems quite certain now that a new and competitive bt archetype is dev terminators. They have showed up consistently on all the decent bt sources and with aac you have great duality.

Now. Going through the response a bit at a time as my phone has a tendency to lose the msg.

The marshal is a nice addition. Without a doubt. But in an intense capture game will he do much or would that 1 extra squad be more significant?

The land raider is an off thought but with this list I think its worth playtesting. What would happen is you swap 2 razors and the marshal for upgrading a rhino to a lrc or lr. Is it worth it?

2 over priced razor who shoot one shot a turn and a marshal who is not essential for upgrading a rhino into a lr.
But is its threat enough, could it benefit the army more?

So you get 3 cru squads to break the line, 2 rhinos and a lr. Yes the other squads who capture then have to walk but what were they doing anyway? Sitting in a taxi?

Again I don't know how well my theory will work out. 2 rounds of shooting should hurt a lot of stuff to help the lr transition on. I am also considering the normal lr too, come on 6 inch,fire both, after picking up the terms and changing their dynamic as needed.

I am not sure how it will work out and orignally I was doing this with 3 term squads.

Reply
lucion
05/22/2011 3:14pm

Dev if your going to take an apoth and melta command squad I think death star is better than pod.

it would be this
Marshal, 4 terms, cml, reclusiarch, 3 cenobyte, reclus command squad, apoth, 2 melta.

Everything feels no pain. Its 240 plus the marshal and cml, good price for the threat it creates.

I didn't know you could do this till yesterday where I saw bt and retinue count as a single unit and the chaplain and his dudes can benefit the marshals guys.

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lucion
05/22/2011 3:31pm

Laeroth infact you could just lose 2 razor = 180 points. Lose marshal. That's 300 pts. Add basic lr. Add 1 rhino. No one has to walk except terms

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lucion
05/22/2011 3:55pm

Ok so if we drop the op razors and sweet but not essential we could use the lr or lrc lists would look something like

Champ aac
5 cml terms th
5 cml terms th

6 crusader,2 ini, melta "fist or swords" rhino
6 crusader 2 ini melta fist rhino
6 crusader 2 ini melta fist rhino
5 cru ml rhino
5 cru ml land raider

3 typhoons

Ok another is

Emp champ aac
5 term cml th
5 term cml th

6 cru 2 ini melta fist land raider crusader
6 cru 2 ini melta fist rhino
6 cru 2 ini melta fist rhino

5 cru las plas rhino
5 cru las plas rhino

3 typhoons

2k

Thoughts?

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lucionlucion
05/22/2011 4:15pm

Going back to the initial lists.

I am quite sold on the core of this.
The troops work together bringing out the best of bt.

I am also convinced on typhoons. With the rhinos to hide behind you can shoot and claim almost invulnerability in the enemy shooting turn.

The question in the big picture then is just how are our terminators going to fit in? A wall of rhino advancing,
Pressuring, typhoons firing, and a ack wall of figures shooting 8 str. 9 per turn.

Despite their straight up shootyness and ability to absorb damage I am curious how we will get the terminators to blend in. Perhaps it will be advancing with the rhinos?

Maybe 1 squad stays back and 1 advances?

This again is why I suggested a lr which could create interesting late game moves should it survive.

As before though I am not sure on whether lr or lrc. A lr is safer. Lrc will get in melta range quickly. I think lr is better. Sit back and shoot for 2 turns then pick up some remaining terms and go full in for the last turns.

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05/22/2011 4:33pm

@ Lucion

Alright, I'm not going to talk about your lists. I hope you aren't annoyed by that.

But I am interested in commenting on your LRC reserve idea. Just using it as a reserved unit I think that that job could be done for less without losing too much efficiency. Using a Rhino is a good example as it is fairly easy to hide it compared to a Land Raider and it is still a vehicle even though it isn't as tough as a LR.

But dropping the two Razorbacks to upgrade a Rhino to a Land Raider could be done (without even dropping the Marshal). Of course, it would be a regular Land Raider with Extra Armor and Smoke. But you would simply have it sit back and do what the Razorbacks were going to do; that is, fire two Twin-Linked Lascannons each round. You do have the loss of only being one vehicle, thus a lucky Lascannon shot can silence both guns. But you are AV 14 so most guns won't hurt you and those that do will have trouble getting back to you, a shaken result (even two of them) will still let you fire one of the Lascannons, you have a Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter so getting a Weapon Destroyed result won't be as bad. In almost every way you improve.

Except that one of those forward squads would have to stay behind or foot-it, neither option being a good one. So if there were, say, 50 or so points available then it might be a sound option. The problem there, though, is that one of the list's strengths is the number of Rhino chassis on the board, you would lose at least 2 of them to bring this in. But it is a valid option for some lists and one that I will keep in mind.

++++++

While thinking about this (during my other online routines) I came to the realization that replicating this list is not just what we should be doing. We should instead be identifying the parts that make it work, which we can then integrate into our lists.

So while we now have, as close as possible, the Black Templar version of his list what we should be doing is trying to find different ways to fill various roles that are taken and trying to see how they incorporate into other lists.

Just some thoughts I had.

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lucion
05/22/2011 4:55pm

Hey dev, thx for comments.

First list with a lr actually keeps 4 rhinos and 1 land raider. So the 3 melta fist guys get rhinos.

Only guys who need to get out are an objective squad -no problem!

Back to your main point. Could you expand a bit on that please I think an example of the "different ways to fill different roles” is needed.

Makes me think of other patterns in proven winning lists that might be drafted in to see how bt might fit about them.

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05/22/2011 5:24pm

I'm not trying to dissect how to beat the list, I just don't know if we should play that closely towards it. Let me do some looking at what the leaders and TWC do for his list, because as far as I'm concerned, that isn't approaching "Rhino chassis saturation". So there has to be something else drawing fire away from them besides just the Long Fangs.

The only way to duplicate the effect of the Scouts IMO is to use a Pod Drop, maybe two. You don't really need those two Razorbacks and forget the fact that the Rhino bodies in your list are "just 18 points more" (90 points or Crusader, 5/0, Missile Launcher there), they are 23! points more than Pods. Cut that Marshall down to Castellan and you are looking at 130 points, so you can give him a command squad with FNP if you wanted to.

This isn't a slap against your lists, they are actually nasty looking and flexible. Maybe it is my limited experience, but vehicle mounted troops don't seem to perform any better than pod troops coming out with enough firepower to eliminate a decent chunk of the enemy they fall on and then grinding inwards towards the rest of the enemy (or sitting on an objective if need be).

I've just never had the "darn, wish I had a Rhino for them to get in" moments that I did when running mechanized Sisters.

Yes, Congratulations, you have created a deep strike monster. Well, helped create it anyway. ;)

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lucion
05/22/2011 9:34pm

Good points algesan and a well needed stir on what's happening.

Thing is rhinos can do lots of tricks. Pods can't.

We have stuck to the kupach list but replication has its limits.

Dude on twc is basically one bad ass wolf lord,3 wounds, eternal warrior, an independent threat.

We can't do that.

Nyal sends out bolts of doom from a rhino and messes up enemy movement.

We can't do that.

Our strenth is aac.

What can we do is lrc and assault terms. It messes up the dynamics though.

Another way to draw more fire is simply another cml term squad,

So its x3 cml term squads

Command squads at this level we go with a cheap reclusiarch,3 cenobytes,and 5 of a command squad with apoth. That is 220 pts and has fnp which will be conferred to a castellan or marshal with a command squad of termies. Might just be better to take an offensive stance with extra termies though rather than have one tough unit.

I am opting for more terms.
If we push it and lose the lr and typhoons It would be like. Castellan and cml terms plus 3 squads of terms with cml. 16 str 9 missiles. Everything benefits from aac. We switch to 16 frags if horde. Good bye orks lol

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05/22/2011 9:59pm

@ Lucion

First, let me explain that one of the things I meant (but slipped my mind from including it specifically) was that we can learn from how many troops he has. Half his army is spent on troops, as opposed to the normal 1 choice per 500 points or 2/5. This is something that can be integrated into lists fairly easily but simply devoting more resources to troops, but it begs the question of an older Codex having good enough troops to be worth that inclusion as the newer codices have generally very good troops.

Alright, I think that I have a good example. But first I need to make a comment about Learoth's list choices:

He took CML Terminators to replicate the Long Fangs (massed missile barrage). I think a better choice would be a squadron of two Land Speeder Typhoons per Long Fang Squad. They end up at the same points value, you lose 1 missile but gain a couple of Heavy Bolters. You do lose the status of Infantry so if they get shaken they can't shoot but are now fast skimmers, giving them much greater maneuverability. Where Marshal Learoth took the Typhoons was to replace the Close Combat Shock threat that was the Fenresian Wolves and TWC. As we already have selected Typhoons for a different role we can assume that these are replaced by the CML Terminators. A slight change with no difference on the final list but must be noted.

Now the example, the role we have to fill is Shock Troops, and we have a little more than 500 points to do it (as we are looking at what will fill that role for the same price). For this there are more choices than just CML Terminators. Now, when I think of 'Shock' troops I think close combat, and I think that the units we are replacing filled just such a role, more specifically a strong close combat unit meant to deter enemy assault armies and make them more cautious. So we need a powerful close combat threat that costs around 500 points and, since we don't want to alter the list too much, it will probably have to be an elite choice or a Command Squad.

What can we take to fill this role? Obviously, we have the CML Terminators. But what about giving them different weapons? What about Assault Cannon Terminators? Sure, they aren't as good of a unit, but they definitely fill that shock role against assault armies once they lay down a total of 8 rending shots. And Heavy Flamers? Similar thing, they are such a threat at close ranges it is dangerous to get too close and thus they fill the same role. Of course, Assault Terminators also do this but all varieties lack something that the TWC have: speed. So how can we replicate Speed? By putting them in a transport. So any variety of the Terminators, when put in a LRC, can fill the role and actually fit the bill better than the CML Terminators.

And that is just Terminators. Sword Brethren can fill a similar role while also providing extra Rhino chassis. Then we have Command Squads, or even just adding Independent Characters to squads we have already mentioned. Finally we have Crusader Squads. We can spend those 500 points to beef them up, maybe having 4 of maximum size in Rhinos or putting two in LRCs.

All of these options fulfill the 'Shock' role to varying degrees and can be added to the current list. So when we need things for a list we can look at which roles need to be filled and try to see what can fill those roles.

I hope this clears up what I mean. It isn't a great thought but, for me, it is worth considering.

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Lucion
05/23/2011 3:15am

I really think the only decent shock unit we have is really assault terminators. Am I wrong? Can 2 squads of assault cannon termies do it as well?

The nice thing about CML termies is they can do both functions.. shoot and assault but they need a LR to be effective in both.

For the record do command squads and sword brethren really count as shock units, or heavy flamers for that matter? I am not convinced. If I wrote a tactica I'd say these units are un competitive.

Pricing
Laeroths list @2k:
We spent 1015 points whereas Tony spent 840 points for pretty much the same thing. A 3/2 formation with twin razors, 3 rhinos. We have replicated, it does the job in CC better, sure, but are the costs at competitive level hampering us in our attempts to replicate?

Onto another note. Just because the first place list took these points, the other top lists or people who won all their games at Adepticon also had their nice lists and who knows - maybe like them Templars will just do better with different choices.

Some are here http://www.baldandscreaming.com/army-lists/

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Lucion
05/23/2011 3:57am


So I am reading around to give inspiration to Laeroths list and found this quote from Stelek

"Stelek says:
January 17, 2011 at 7:20 pm
I think there are options you are missing. Accept any challenge is good if you have like 20+ Termies or 40+ Marines you intend to throw at the enemy. Not so much if you aren’t."

I am wondering, could our lists be tailored to get more terminators in and make more use of AAC?
Could be integrate a bit of Steleks wisdom with the existing patterns found in Kupachs list?

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Lucion
05/23/2011 6:42am

Heres a few of Steleks lists which have not used Rhinos, and alternative ways of running our troops so we get real bang for our buck.

http://yesthetruthhurts.com/2011/01/black-templar-shooty/

http://yesthetruthhurts.com/2008/11/black-templar-suffer-not/

Its taking these lists in an entirely different way, but its worth a thought.

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05/23/2011 9:50am

I have some thoughts, but once I get back from work I'll make them. :)

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05/23/2011 12:30pm

@ Lucion

Assault Terminators are the strongest close combat unit we have and fill the role the best because they are a specialist unit. Further they are known (specifically the Black Templar Assault Terminators with AAC) which makes them even better at making the enemy more cautious.

But CML Terminators provide Duality when they do it. But if you put them in an LRC then they have to get out to shoot.

Granted, the Sword Brethren wouldn't be able to do the job very well, but 2 units of 7 with a PoLC, Power Weapon, Terminator Honors on those two, in a Rhino, with Furious Charge comes to 502 points and each can be seen as a dangerous Close Combat unit. Similarly with a Command Squad: Apothecary, Seargeant with Terminator Honors and a Lightning Claw, a Fighting Company Champion, led by a Reclusiarch with a Bolt Pistol, 6 other members, all with Furious Charge in a Rhino comes to 372 points. You don't want to engage either squad except with something that can take, so either a similar set up or a Dedicated Close Combat unit.

The Heavy Flamer Terminators and Assault Cannon Terminators benefit from being strong in close combat and, since they are in an LRC they can count on getting shots off and then the charge. They are as good in the assault as CML Terminators but come cheaper and don't have to worry about shooting as that is not what they are brought for. They also have the added benefit, over the Assault Terminators, of having massed shots and templates to deal with hordes.

But, all that said, not all of the options are equal. If you take the Command Squad you can only have one without dropping something else from the list. The Sword Brethren aren't anywhere near as good as any version of the Terminators but try to make up for that by having two units, which the Terminator cannot do in this particular list as they are paying for the LRC. Also note that this is a specific role which makes the short range of the HF and Assault Cannon Terminators less of a burden.

These units count as shock, for the purposes here, but you're right; they are almost never a competitive option.

++++++

Thank you, Lucion, for adding up what Kopach actually spent on his troops. I failed to do that and simply looked at what we were spending and thus made a mistake. So this does not demonstrate that we should spend more on troops, we should still aim for around 40%.

You also make a good point about the other lists that were in the final games. I will make sure to look at those lists and perhaps take a hand at replicating them myself.

++++++

As the list is now, we have 10 Terminators and 30 Initiates which means that, under Stelek's comment, we have enough to be worth taking AAC. Though since you brought it up I will keep that in mind when making lists with AAC.

Also, both of those lists are focusing on a particular idea. The first is a static list without transports. The second is specifically intended to make use of Suffer Not, and is a Black Tide list. Neither one has aspects that could be integrated into this one except what is already there.

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Neophyte Bob
05/23/2011 2:28pm

After reading the posts so far (particularly those by Algesan & Lucion) I have been thinking a lot about replicating the purpose of the scouts and wolf lord as disruption / shock troops. Particularly since my BT lists tend to lack in this role. So starting from the core list Laeroth wrote I've tried a couple of things to achieve this.
The first is drop pods (as suggested before) as they can reliably put nasty things near the opponent's fire support / objectives, or just be sent off empty to block stuff in.
The second uses (don't kill me) bikes. I was thinking that a marshal and a small bike squad could slip around a flank as the rhinos charge up, spreading the threat out and maybe meltaing something important on their way. Once they are back there they can split up and go after fire support or the backs of attacking tanks, or stick together to shoot up and melee something nasty. I have also kitted out the marshal to go after dreadnoughts/MCs/etc. I know the bikes are not very resilient for their price, but they are very mobile and can put out a lot of fire while moving. Keeping them with the marshal should help them get past the lines intact, drawing fire with them and away from the rhinos.
What do you think?

List 1. Pods Away!

EC AAC 140
SB Terminators 2CML Tank Hunters 265
SB Terminators 2CML Tank Hunters 265
CS 5/2 ccw/bp Mg, Rhino w/ smoke 163 (EC rides here)
CS 5/2 ccw/bp PF Mg, Rhino w/ smoke 178
CS 5/2 ccw/bp PF Mg, Rhino w/ smoke 178
CS 5/0 ccw/bp LasC Fl, Rhino w/ smoke 154
CS 5/0 ccw/bp LasC Fl, Rhino w/ smoke 154
LS Typhoon x 3 210 (separate)
CS 5/0 ccw/bp Pw Mg, Drop pod 130
SwBr 5 ccw/bp PoLC Mg FCh, Drop pod 160
1997 pts

List 2. Emperor's Bikers

EC AAC 140
SB Terminators 2CML Tank Hunters 265
SB Terminators 2CML Tank Hunters 265
CS 5/1 ccw/bp Mg, Rhino w/ smoke 153 (EC rides here)
CS 5/2 ccw/bp PF Mg, Rhino w/ smoke 178
CS 5/2 ccw/bp PF Mg, Rhino w/ smoke 178
CS 5/0 ccw/bp LasC Fl, Rhino w/ smoke 154
CS 5/0 ccw/bp LasC Fl, Rhino 151
LS Typhoon x 2 140 (Separate or squadded for cover)
Marshal ThH SS AdMtl Bike 190
Bikes 3 1MG 2PG AtBike w/ MM 186
2000 pts

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05/23/2011 3:22pm

Alright, my turn! First off, I want to ensure that we know that I'm currently comparing Tony K's Nova open list and my v1.1 list in the comment sections. :D

Now, I want to talk about what I think the themes are for these two lists. Tony's list revolves around Rhino-based Grey Hunter spam. Lots of saturation and marines on the board to get whatever he needs done. Combined with his Psykers (which we cannot replicate), he has a fairly solid troops core. He also has some decently mobile CC-elements in his list that aren't troops. These are his Wolf Scouts and sacrificial Fenrisian Wolves, then his more powerful Wolf Lord on TWC. Considering everything in his list, it is plainly slanted more towards CC and shooting. And to be realistic, his shooting is relatively weak and relies quite a bit on his short-ranged melta.

My list, on the other hand, doesn't have that CC presence outside of our troops. Our terminators will do okay, but that is not their main role. But that isn't a bad thing, as I compensated by increasing the shooting in the list, which was clearly a weakness of Tony's. Is that shooting enough to replace the loss of CC units? I'm not sure, but remember that a Wolf Lord certainly can't win a battle by himself and Fen Wolves die to simple bolter fire (6+ save). My list concentrates on shooting the crap out of my opponent, then moving in with the CC-troops to clean up. Because our main source of firepower is terminator based (with Ld 10 from our Marshal) and hopefully in cover, they won't be going anywhere unless someone manages to get a charge off on them or puts significant firepower their way. The former, is a dangerous proposition unless a dedicated CC-unit. The latter only helps the list.

The point of this exercise was to take the core values of a successful list, put it into ours, then make it better. We cannot do what the Space Wolves can. We are the Black Templars, so using those tenets is what will ensure our success. But with that being said, I agree with Devjon in his assessment that trying to use too many of those pros is a detriment to our list and actually creates inefficiencies rather than optimizing.

So the question I present is, do we REALLY need that "shock" unit? Separate the comparison to Tony's list for a moment. Think about what a 5th Edition list needs to be successful. Long range AT (primarily transport popping), short range AT for heavy armor, short range AI, mobility, and redundancy. Do we have AT? Yes, in abundance. What about short-range AT and AI? We've got our meltaguns in three crusader squads and every unit in our army is proficient at killing infantry. So that leaves mobility and redundancy. We've got everything in transports or move under their own power (Typhoons). The exception is the terminators, but they are relentless fire support platforms so will likely never need to advance beyond mid-field. And we definitely have redundancy in our 3/2 crusader squads, 3 Typhoons, and 2x CML Terminators. So we have the tools to compete against every army on the table. We have lots of scoring units, lots of kill power, and can easily play defensively if needed too. As far as I'm concerned, we could leave the list as is now...but do we want to? Maybe.

To be continued...

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05/23/2011 4:34pm

Before I go into the actual list and potential changes, I want to address Stelek. He knows his shit about 40k and does a good job of showing that in his lists. Most of the time, they are legitimate contenders and work. However, it is my very strong belief that he doesn't quite grasp the Black Templars fully. He's come up with a few good army archetypes (i.e. MSU Drop Pods, PotMS Razors/Vindicators), but even that is all hypothetical. Of all of his armies, I think he is the least experienced with the BT. And it shows in his specific advise. I don't want to toot my own horn, but I understand the army and its capabilities much more than he does (Nikephoros, BigDunc, Brother Loring, Messenger of Death do as well). Its not a fault of Stelek's, but you cannot be perfect with every army. It simply cannot be. That doesn't mean disregard his advice, but make sure you peer-review it before actually implementing whatever he says in regard to the BT.

Now that is out of the way...I also want to point out that in Tony K's Nova list, his "troops" actually cost 954 points because you have to add in the Wolf Guard that attach to the Grey Hunters. For all intents and purposes, they are the Sergeants of those units. And the troops in my v1.1 list is 998. So very close. My troops were upgraded slightly higher to account for "Wolf Guard" that were taken. So when you look at it, the troops really are a wash. They have an extra one-shot melta in each unit, as well as the banner, and counter-attack. We have greater wound allocation abilities and Preferred Enemy. Preferred Enemy pretty much invalidates both counter-attack and the banner. So the only thing we don't have is the one-shot meltas. Meh. We'll live.

I think we can tweak the troops a little bit from my v1.1 version, but it'll require the Marshal being downgraded to a Castellan as Algesan suggested. Because we're not relying on the Ld 10, as we're in boxes (and have Ld 9 on the terminators already)...we don't really need the extra wound. Changes are he'll get one, maybe two, good charges in a game. With the storm shield, he should survive just long enough to get into the second assault. And that is all we need. Besides, cheaper is better.

So so with the change, we save 15 points, plus the extra point we had left over. When I made my v1.1 list, I was a little concerned about the optimal CC-unit sizes for the IC crusader squads. It was one initiate short on both. If I lose the powerfists and replace them with power weapons, plus drop the smoke launchers on the Razorbacks...I can buy two more initiates for those two units. That will get them to the preferred 7/2 setup. I can hear you now: "But what about Monstrous Creatures and Dreadnoughts?" SHOOT THEM. You are mobile and in Rhinos. You can avoid them easily and if they do get close, shoot them more! In the case of T6 stuff, you'll still do a reasonable 3-4 wounds with your IC crusader squads (though without an IC, you do a marginal 2 wounds). Normally I like the power fists better, but in this case, I think we'll be just fine without them. Not to mention, it gives our units a legitimate scare factor. The non-IC unit isn't meant to an end-all, be-all CC unit. But it can clear the way of basic troops/shooty units. Leave the heavy lifting to the ICs.

As for the Land Raider suggestion, I tried plugging on into my list. I did not like a couple things:

1) Instead of having two vehicles that need neutralization to prevent them firing, you only need to stop one. While taking a regular LR helps somewhat against meltaguns and protection against Missiles, it isn't protected against Lance fire, Multi-Meltas, Rending weapons (Assault Cannons/Psycannons), or the lucky lascannon shot. 250 points is a lot of points in one vehicle.

2) What does the LR really give us? We don't really have anything worth picking up and moving (except maybe one of the Crusader squads). Its shooting is replicated by the Lazorbacks for cheaper. And the regular LR cannot even shoot its two lascannons at the same target because the hull gets in the way.

3) Whatever is inside of the LR cannot shoot its weapon. If you put a flamer squad in there, no big deal as it can't shoot anyway. But if you're carrying around a melta unit, you'll not be able to fire. :(

I think the LR idea definitely has merit now that PotMS was updated, but the list needs to be built around them. Which is not the case in this particular list. It is trying to force something in there that doesn't really fit in my opinion.

I also made 3x CML Terminator list and I'm not entirely enthused there either. Really cuts down on what is in the army. While they'll put out lots of firepower all game, they give your opponent's AT weaponry no other choice other than to fire at the Rhinos. Yikes. You also lose the ability to target 2 more units a turn, as well as close combat utility from the commander. Which really hurts their ability to damag

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05/23/2011 4:38pm

Updated list (v1.2)

HQ:
* Castellan w/ Lightning Claw, Storm Shield, Krak Grenades, and Frag Grenades. [108]
* Emperor's Champion w/ Black Sword, Bolt Pistol, Armor of Faith, Frag Grenades, and the Vow: "Accept Any Challenge, No Matter the Odds". [140]

Elites:
* Sword Brethren Terminators: 5 Terminators w/ 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers, 5 Storm Bolters, 5 Power Fists, and Tank-Hunters. [265]
* Sword Brethren Terminators: 5 Terminators w/ 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers, 5 Storm Bolters, 5 Power Fists, and Tank-Hunters. [265]

Troops:
* Crusader Squad: 7 Initiates w/ 5 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons, 1 Meltagun, 1 Bolt Pistol and Power Weapon & Frag Grenades; 2 Neophytes w/ 2 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons & Frag Grenades. Mounted in a Rhino w/ Smoke Launchers. [214]
* Crusader Squad: 7 Initiates w/ 5 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons, 1 Meltagun, 1 Bolt Pistol and Power Weapon & Frag Grenades; 2 Neophytes w/ 2 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons & Frag Grenades. Mounted in a Rhino w/ Smoke Launchers. [214]
* Crusader Squad: 8 Initiates w/ 6 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons, 1 Meltagun, 1 Bolt Pistol and Power Weapon & Frag Grenades; 2 Neophytes w/ 2 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons & Frag Grenades. Mounted in a Rhino w/ Smoke Launchers. [231]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 4 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons & 1 Flamer. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons and Smoke Launchers. [179]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 4 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons & 1 Flamer. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons and Smoke Launchers. [179]

Fast Attack:
* Land Speeder: Heavy Bolter and Typhoon Missile Launchers. [70]
* Land Speeder: Heavy Bolter and Typhoon Missile Launchers. [70]
* Land Speeder: Heavy Bolter and Typhoon Missile Launchers. [70]

Total Points: [1999]

Reply
Lucion
05/23/2011 4:40pm

I am glad you always leave an opening Laeroth. In the end the truth is subjective.

I am quite convinced against razors TLLC with Zeal. For 180 points with them both you could get 2 5 man squads with a ML, meaning 3/4 - illegal, but its max troops and thats good.

Today I used a humble x2 5 man crusader squads with ML. 90 points a piece, thats a bargain and marines cant do that. SW cant do that. No one can do it. Just us. Those cheap marines sat on objectives all game and won it for me.
A scouting baal predator even turned up, roasted 3 of them, but they held and won it in the end.



Laeroth I like the list, infact, I love it, but as you said, we cant do what SW can do.
So lets get rid of the x2TLLC and get in a crusader. 2 5 man squads with ML is suffice for defensive duties.

If we drop those 180 points we are on par with Tony's list in terms of point expenditure. At the moment we are over.

The thing about Tonys list is it had a solid core 3/2. After that - we can get fluffy stuff. He gets fluffy Stuff. So we can because we have the core - we can play with whatever killing tools suits us.

Maybe some of us like x3 auto las pred, what is our style and what luck are you willing to put on it? In the end it has to suit the player.

So I say in with a LRCs.

Dont make it official if you dont want to, but remember. Tony used Nyal. That is official.

The Lrc I used today was a multi purpose unit. Its a serious threat. Sure melta owns it but if one is smart and keeps at 24 inch the little melta squads cant do much.

heh 1 melta squad turned up, shot at me and nothing happened. Next turn boom, hurricane bolters, 5 man squad riddled dead.
One just needs to me mindful of those squads, melta is the only thing that can hurt us.

The LRC doesnt even need to rush in, it can act more as a defender, hold troops launch our static terminators in. Well. I am sold on it for 2k, and I'd try it at 1750 too. 1500 is pushing it.

Reply
Lucion
05/23/2011 5:02pm

Heres the list I will try out anyway.

I am not concerned whether it is approved or not because it is this type of list, which for me, feels it has more "direct threat" than "attrition" which suits my own style of play.

I like to know my opponent knows - yup, that LRC has these damage ranges and I cant go there.

Also the 6 TH SS terminators I will try as dual AC termies or a third CML squad. Point being, they can ride inside, then jump out and shoot if I want too, and jump back in if need be.

Its true, the troops have been abused in Kupachs list, but other top adepticon players took similar "light" troops and lost no games.

* Emperor's Champion w/ Black Sword, Bolt Pistol, Armor of Faith, Frag Grenades, and the Vow: "Accept Any Challenge, No Matter the Odds". [140]

Elites:
* Sword Brethren Terminators: 5 Terminators w/ 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers, 5 Storm Bolters, 5 Power Fists, and Tank-Hunters. [265]
* Sword Brethren Terminators: 5 Terminators w/ 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers, 5 Storm Bolters, 5 Power Fists, and Tank-Hunters. [265]
* Sword Brethren Terminator Assault Squad : 6 Terminators w/ Thunder hammers + Storm shields. [240]

Troops:
* Crusader Squad: 7 Initiates w/ 5 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons, 1 Meltagun, 1 Bolt Pistol and Power Weapon & Frag Grenades; 2 Neophytes w/ 2 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons & Frag Grenades. Mounted in a Rhino w/ Smoke Launchers. [214]
* Crusader Squad: 7 Initiates w/ 5 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons, 1 Meltagun, 1 Bolt Pistol and Power Weapon & Frag Grenades; 2 Neophytes w/ 2 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons & Frag Grenades. Mounted 1in a Rhino w/ Smoke Launchers. [214]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 4 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons & 1 Missile launcher. [90]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 4 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons & 1 Missile launcher. [90]

Fast Attack:
* Land Speeder: Heavy Bolter and Typhoon Missile Launchers. [70]
* Land Speeder: Heavy Bolter and Typhoon Missile Launchers. [70]
* Land Speeder: Heavy Bolter and Typhoon Missile Launchers. [70]

Heavy Support:
* Land Raider Crusader : Twin Linked Assault Cannon, Multi Melta, Hurricane Bolters, Smoke launchers. [268]

Total Points: [1996]

Reply
05/23/2011 5:32pm

Just a quick clarification: The only player that went undefeated in the Adepticon Championships was Tony K. There were 4 other players that got 3-1 though. The same goes for Nova Open 2010. The only undefeated player was Tony.

I don't have to "approve" a list for you to play it. As you said, and I've mentioned on my Site Primer, it all comes down to the player's tastes. My list does not have to be your list. Its more of a guideline and a basis of what I'd personally run in battle. The discussion regarding why such choices were made is what matters. Through that dialog, a player can learn about what they want to do in their lists and if it'll be effective. All I can do is give advice, its up to others to decide whether or not to use them. :D

As for dropping a troops unit, its possible it can be done and still be effective. But I'd have to think about how I'd do it and still present a solid list.

Reply
Lucion
05/23/2011 6:06pm

Another thing:

Although melta fist has been taken as a kind of standard with so much anti tank/dread, a sword makes much better use of aac. Its painful to watch a fist fail to wound!

I also wonder - upon what Stelek did recently. Multi melta and melta gun in 1 rhino. 2 of them are so good for pushing tanks and their so cheap!

Err Solution for dropping troops unit. Make the Initiate squads in rhinos 5 man with meltas and go x3 crusaders with ML. 2/3

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Lucion
05/23/2011 6:11pm

Altered a 1500 point list I saw earlier with the new troop changes. I like it.
You could comfortably change the typhoons for a Marshal CC monster if wished. Call it LC, Terminator Armour, Storm Shield and Furious charge. Some grenades and your in.

Black Templar 1500

Duke Lexander, Chosen of the Emperor 140
The Black Sword, Armor of Faith, Crusader Seals, Frag Grenades, Bolt Pistol
Vow: Accept any challenge, no matter the odds

Sword Brethren Assault Terminators (5) 215
(1x) Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield, (4x) Crusader Swords (Lightning Claws), Furious Charge

Crusader Squad (5 initiates) 151
Initiates: (1x) Meltagun, Bolt Pistol/Chainsword (5x) Bolt Pistol/Chainsword, (1x) Power Axe/Bolt Pistol, Boltgun Frag Grenades
Transport: Rhino, Smoke Launchers,

Crusader Squad (5 initiates) 151
Initiates: (1x) Meltagun, Bolt Pistol/Chainsword (5x) Bolt Pistol/Chainsword, (1x) Power sword/Bolt Pistol, Boltgun Frag Grenades
Transport: Rhino, Smoke Launchers,

Crusader Squad (5 initiates) 90
Bolt Pistol/Chainsword (3x) Boltgun, (1x) Missile Launcher, Boltgun

Crusader Squad (5 initiates) 90
Bolt Pistol/Chainsword (3x) Boltgun, (1x) Missile Launcher, Boltgun

Land Speeder Typhoon (1) 70

Land Speeder Typhoon (1) 70


Land Raider Crusader (1) 268
(2x) Hurricane Bolters, (1x) Twin Linked Assault Cannon, (1x) Multi-Melta
Upgrades: Power of the Machine Spirit, Extra Armor, Smoke launchers

Predator Destructor (1) 125
(2x) Sponson Lascannons, (1x) Turret Mounted Autocannon

Predator Destructor (1) 125
(2x) Sponson Lascannons, (1x) Turret Mounted Autocannon
1441

1495

Reply
05/23/2011 6:33pm

@ Marshal Learoth

For what it's worth, the Land Raider can indeed fire at two targets. The only difference is that it has to decide what it is shooting at before rolling the dice, so while you can focus the Razorbacks' guns you cannot as easily while using the Land Raider without the chance of overkill. Also while you can chain-shake the Razorbacks with light weapons, you can only silence 1 of the Land Raider's Lascannons by shaking it.

I still think that a Land Raider could work in the list. But it wouldn't be quite as good due to not having fire-points and having to replace one of the Rhinos, thus putting it more in Melta range.

I agree with decreasing the Power Fists to Power Weapons. While the Power Fist is better against light vehicles (in close range) and high-toughness things, it is better to simply shoot those rather than endangering yourself in close combat and having the right number of Initiates is always good.

But I cannot agree with dropping down to a Castellan. As you said, we'll be in metal boxes and thus will not have to take as many morale checks. But a Marshal can benefit the Terminators; a Castellan will only benefit the Crusader Squads (who won't be making very many checks). It makes him hardly worth the points. Those 108 points you are spending on him could be used to buy an extra Terminator in each squad, improving their durability and Close Combat effectiveness, as well as upgrading those Power Weapons back into Power Fists (which, when points permit, are a good insurance).

I suppose that we don't need a Shock unit with the close combat strength of our troops (they should be able to defeat Tony Kopach's troops) and so we may not need that particular role to be filled. However, that role can be filled in other lists and could be done with our Crusader Squad plus a powerful Independant Character, such as a Marshal with Lightning Claw and Storm Shield or the Emperor's Champion.

++++++

Now, a thought about the list which cannot really be implemented but worth considering in later lists. When Las/Plas squads are taken they often are also used to purchase a Razorback with TL Lascannon. But for an extra 10 points you can get a Predator Annihilator without any sponsons. It does the same job (firing a TL Lascannon) but has front AV 13. Of course, you lose out on not being able to transport the squad, but you can spend an extra 10 points and get Heavy Bolter sponsons which gives it duality (and you cannot get duality with a Razorback except through its squad).

++++++

@ Lucion

While building a good core and then adding in some things that you like, despite how effective it is, will not make a list 'bad'. I assume (by the picture at the beginning) that Marshal Learoth is intending to include this list in his Black Templar guide. Thus, in the spirit of the website, the list must be as competitive as possible. I don't think that including a Land Raider, especially not a Land Raider Crusader, improves the list much.

++++++

@ Neophyte Bob

I hope you don't feel neglected. With your first list I would switch the Power Weapon on the Drop Pod Crusader Squad to a Power Fist to add to their ability against vehicles (improving their disruption capability). I would also drop the PoLC on your Sword Brethren in favor of a Powerfist (for the same reason).

For your second list I don't think it has a good premise. Bikes aren't a very good unit and need ablative wounds (by having a full squad) or else they are easily dealt with. Further, you are spending an insane amount on your Marshal. I would decrease him down to minimum, drop the bikes, and buy a Techmarine with a Servo-Harness, Bolt Pistol, and Storm Shield for taking on major threats. With him you get a 2+/3++ save, 2 wounds, 3 Power Weapons attacks, and 2 Power Fist attacks for 121 points. You also have a Flamer and a Twin-Linked Plasma Pistol so he can sit in a squad and provide support until they get near a Monstrous Creature or an Independant Character when he can split off from the squad.

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05/23/2011 6:39pm

Also, I forgot something about the 1.2 list.

It is a really little thing but instead of the Krak Grenades I think an Auspex would be more useful. The situation for using it is just as rare but while the Krak Grenade will likely do nothing when it is used, the Auspex will let you shoot at something near-by and you are more likely to do something effective.

Again, it is a very small thing but I see no real reason to keep the Krak Grenade instead.

Reply
Lucion
05/23/2011 7:36pm

@ Bob.

I can see your trying to make a disruption unit because BT dont have a Wolf lord.
However Bikes are not the answer.

Closest thing to those points/range of movement and firepower is a LRC.

Also the core of your list has taken some elements of what has been created but pods mixed in? I think theres a better way to finish these lists than Bikes and Pods (Bikes are over priced and pods work better in all pod lists)

@ Dev

Shooting point? Who needs a shooting point on a land raider its got an assault ramp!

A ton of players would say taking Nyal doesnt make a list competitive either.
When I saw Tony win and talk the thing he talked most enthusiastically about was Njal, his favourite part of the army, so really, what people say what is competitive and what isnt is really - totally subjective.

Why do you play this game and choose units "oh cos I read these guys and they said this woz competitive...so im taking it cos they said it woz good..but I dont know.." or "Oh Cos I love these units and they work for me"
Theirs alot of talk about whats competitive at the moment, and alot of blind adherence to this. The fact is what won the tournament had elements which are considered extremely uncompetitive, thus it was skill not "list" that did it. People can rant on about it forever but they will still be in denial.

So What is competitive? Its the player. Not the list.

The spirit of the website is a guide for people to find their own lists and a means to find ones own "way" in gaming.

Laeroth does this exceptionally and its the true wisdom of a teacher - who helps you find your own "inner knowledge" and not judging you. He gives room and guidance, and that is the single best thing one can give.

I am quite honoured that Laeroth has taken up the idea of replicating Tonys list. Do I think its reached an ultimatum? No - because I dont think anyones played with it yet.

Finally.. taking a techmarine with servo harness and storm shield, woot, 105 points on a tech marine, it would made a bad ass terminator conversion too but COME ON!! :)

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05/23/2011 10:35pm

@ Devjon

I was thinking about adding this article to the 101 guide. Or at least the thoughts behind it in some form.

The Marshal is nice, but I really only did take him for his CC-abilities. I don't think the Ld 10 is needed, but I'll try and find some points to get him back. :/

As for the Auspex, I thought about it actually...but it doesn't actually work with that unit. The longest range in the unit is 12" and that is the CLOSEST your opponent can deploy if you do not have LOS. At which point, they'd have to deploy 18" away...which is out of range. :(

@ Lucion

The player matters a lot in competitiveness, but the list is also very important. Assuming equal skill and average dice rolls: Player A with an average list will be beaten by Player B with an optimized list almost every time. No matter how knowledgeable you are with your list. So its important to make sure its at least taking marginally competitive units. But there is some lee-way there for players. I, personally, roll with :D

As far as Implausible Nature, I try! It helps when I have dedicated readers. :)

@ Bob

I was wondering what Devjon was talking about! You replied as I was typing up my big comments so I didn't see ya. :(

The 1st list isn't bad. Could use a couple efficiency tweaks like changing the Lascannons on your Crusader squads to Multi-Meltas and adding a power weapon to the crusader squad that doesn't have a CC weapon.

The 2nd list, however...is not as good. Bikers in the BT are too expensive for what they do and not survivable at all. Any disruption they would provide would only take maybe 1/4 of your opponent's firing in one turn to eliminate. Unless they turbo boosted, but even then they're a points liability. Such is life. :D

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05/24/2011 12:31am

@ Lucion

Just because people can have success with a unit does not make it competitive. What's competitive is not "totally subjective". Painting is subjective, the fluff is subjective, personal preference is subjective, competitiveness is not.

A unit's competitiveness is based on many, many factors. To name off a few there is one for each number in the stat line, a factor for each special rule, the opportunity cost, how many and what kind of weapons including Power Weapons (and the like) as well as special and heavy weapons, what their standard load out is, what the rest of the list is, what you want them to do, your play style, psychological effects they have on the opponent, the list goes on and probably cannot be completed by the likes of me.

That is why people disagree and make it appear subjective, they are simply missing factors when they consider the unit. Also, very few of the factors change over time except through new editions or over the course of numerous codex updates (for other codices) so there is no "what's competitive now".

While player skill plays an immense factor in who wins and loses, it is not the sole factor nor greater than all the others. Evidence of this is that in the higher tiers of tournaments you will not see completely unoptimized lists. You will probably see some like Tony's which aren't fully optimized, but he would not have done as well if he had used a list lacking a strong core.

Do you have to take an optimized list? No, you don't. In fact, some think that you do better if you don't take the most optimized list and instead replace a few things with units or upgrades that you are more comfortable with; and these are competitive gamers who know how to play Warhammer well.

Yes, he liked Njal. I don't know all of what Njal does but I doubt he was a bad choice, just not an optimal choice. For all I know Njal might have given a special rule that was key for Tony to use some aspect of his army.

But that does not make a Land Raider, or its variants, an optimal choice for the list. It does not fit with one of the list's main defenses, namely the number of Rhinos and Razorbacks on the field. So your opponent has fewer decisions to make when targeting you vehicles and you lose the option to tote around the smaller Flamer squads. Target selection cannot be measured, but again that does not make it subjective.

I also want to point out something, you said "Why do you play this game and choose units 'oh cos I read these guys and they said this woz competitive...so im taking it cos they said it woz good..but I dont know..'" and "Laeroth does this exceptionally and its the true wisdom of a teacher - who helps you find your own 'inner knowledge' and not judging you. He gives room and guidance, and that is the single best thing one can give."

Now, I take offense at the first set of quotes. I was raised and taught to think, several of my school courses were dedicated to independent thought, logic, even study of philosophy to some extent. I do not hold by anything because someone else said so, nor do I give my opinion if I'm unsure without making it quite clear that I am unsure. I have learned from other people but not blindly, I have used my own reason to decide if they are right.

I cannot speak for Marshal Learoth's methods as I have not taken specific notice of any techniques he may or may not use. But I do know that you do not have 'Inner Knowledge' and you do not need 'room' to learn. Information and understanding do not just bubble up to the surface of your mind, it is taught to you either by yourself or someone else.

++++++

@ Learoth

Okay, I was thinking about him as a Ld booster, which is why I normally take him, rather than simply a close combat improvement. I would either drop the commander entirely in favor of having nice little upgrades like Extra Armor on the vehicles and full 6-man units in the Razorbacks; or I would upgrade him to a Marshal to provide not only close combat efficiency but also Ld boosting, two roles filled for an extra 15 points.

And I'm glad that you thought about the Auspex more than I did. I knew that they would be in a Rhino so you would really only get a Meltagun and a Bolt Pistol fired at any enemies, but since they will be out of range I suppose that the Krak Grenades would actually be better.

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Neophyte Bob
05/24/2011 4:18am

Thanks for the comments all :)
Yeah, so bike. Bikes should be good at something but they really are just awful. Oh well, maybe my marshal will get to play polo with tanks in some magical future codex...
With the pods I wasn't trying to create any sort of saturation just disrupt home objectives / fire support in the same way outflanking scouts or termicide units do in other armies. However they are probably too expensive and too unpredictable to be worth taking given how much I had to thin out the melee units to do it.

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Lucion
05/24/2011 5:08am

Well its my Birthday today and a little dis-heartening to know I've stirred someone up, not being intentional.

If your reacting offensively to something that comes up, well, I am not being intentionally offensive, I am speaking my heart on the matter.

I spoke generally on the matter, without referring to you or anyone. If you have taken offence, perhaps there is a grain of truth in it. If it hurts, well, thats what Stelek would say, and Jung would say there is no coming to consciousness without pain.

The truth is a sub optimal list won Adepticon, and I would gladly try the same over what other people say it an optimized list anyday.

Theres talk now about how lists are not subjective, theres some objective thing out there which spells a good list. Starting to sound a little scientific on the matter, funny, because scientific agreement is based on an inter-subjective consensus. There is nothing objective about a molecule apart from a group of people agreeing it is a molecule.

Objective knowledge refers to a posteriori knowledge, 2+2 = 4, all black birds are black. Competitive lists are not the same, they are a prioiri - knowledge based on experience -the game is not systemic enough to be classed as A posteriori knowledge.


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05/24/2011 11:57am

@Neophyte Bob

The Drop Pods and Drop Pod units aren't a problem to have, but you must be careful that they don't detract greatly from the list.

@Lucion

Happy Birthday!

Now, I know that there is nothing actually directing that comment at me. But the discussion has been between you, Learoth, and myself (you and myself primarily). Since you obviously didn't think the latter statement applied to me then you must think, though it is not specifically applied, that the first statement applied to me.

I am not reacting because there is a grain of truth, I am reacting because it is wrong and, were it actually directed, would be insulting. Indeed, it seemed to be directed at me for above reasons.

The truth is not that a sub-optimized list won Adepticon and Nova Open, it is that a fantastic player did. Yes, he had a sub-optimized list. No, he would not have won with a terrible list. In fact, he probably would not have done as well with a fully optimized list assuming he had not had time to practice with it. He was comfortable with his list, Njal probably helped that, and that allowed him to use it well.

Now, a people agreeing that something is a molecule is a Tautology. We agree to say something is something and so it is; another good example is the statement "a father of a father is a grandfather". It is only so because people agree upon it.

But something being more competitive than something else is not so. Take, for example, two guns that are exactly the same except one is S7 and the other is S8. That is not subjective. The S8 gun is better and, so long as they are the same in other ways, it will always be better. Everyone could agree that the S7 gun is better but that would not make it so. It is fact and objective.

How competitive things are cannot be worked as a science. Why? Because, partly, some of the factors are subjective, though this does not make the entirety subjective; and partly because there are so few factors that we can measure. We cannot treat immeasurable things scientifically but that does not make it entirely subjective.

We may be unable to come to an agreement here, if you don't think we can than we can shortly drop this subject and move on.

++++++

I have found this to be enlightening. I went through the list of finalists and semi-finalists and remade their lists into Black Templar ones, similar to what has been done here, and I realized something. First off, three out of five of the lists that I worked on were Space Wolf ones; secondly, they all had at least one unit of scouts with some Melta.

Now, this may just be their scouts being extremely good. But I have begun to think that my lists require a similar way of disrupting the opponent. Infiltrating Melta, Deep Striking Melta, even Vindicators with PotMS all do this. I will be spending some time looking at how I can integrate this into my lists and perhaps more ways of getting the same result.

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05/24/2011 4:06pm

NOTE: For those that don't know, I run an exclusive Deep Strike list, but most games I deploy the Terminators (both kinds) and Typhoon Speeders on the board.

@Laeroth: I agree, I don't know if I would lose the PF, but... I see where you are coming from there.

I might be an oddball, but I never had any trouble with 6/3 & 7/3 Crusader squads. I really don't mind 6/4 or 5/4 either, but it can put you in a bit of a spot where you have to take a hit on a Neophyte that you would normally put on an Initiate for his better armor save. Worth the points for me sometimes.

One reason I field two THDC Terminators and one 3/2 Assault Terminator squad stems from the need for a studly CC unit. Crusaders with AAC get the job done for most things, but with MSU, it isn't so hot.

Oh, the Assault squad rarely gets to do the cross the board and slam into the enemy thing (and in my last game, took one loss and failed the RZ test right off the board) that everyone says it needs to be doing. Mainly it gets to get "in the middle" and play king of the hill. Ignore it, it eats you for lunch, work around it (since it is on foot) and its done its job, shoot it to death, praise the Emperor, that just soaked up a lot of firepower for a unit that doesn't have a mission critical offensive job.

I get away with this because I focus on controlling the initiative with deep striking, punching out transports (walking is better for your health) and killing long range stuff that can kill my Speeders.

On the Lazorbacks, I'm really starting to dislike them. Thin skinned and you can buy another Predator for the cost of a pair of them. Also I buy into Stelek's 4+2 Troop theory (four mobile squads plus two MSU foot ones with LC, PC or ML for fire support). Some armies may like 100% mobility, but Marines don't need it IMO.

@Several people: What is up with the Lascannon/Flamer squads? Really, those are back line fire support and for the same price as the Flamer you can get the Plasmagun with a 24" range (since you shouldn't be moving with that LC) that can force anything to take an invulnerable (cover) save that wounds almost everything on a 2+. Why do I want an 8" teardrop template that is worthless against any enemy who can move up to 12" since they are then within move + charge range?

I love flamers with Sisters, but then that is the Heavy Flamer (not Flamer) + Meltagun combo at work with faith powers.

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Lucion
05/24/2011 6:13pm

@Dev

I didnt have you in mind in mind specfically when writing that quote, I was referring to a state of mind people have.

Yes of course str 8 is objectively better than str 7. But when its the last few 200 points of a list and its being moved around for fun and trials, - even if I am fooling myself with a land raider - I will keep optimistic regardless of any competitive label.

I am curious to see the lists you come up with.

I think its whats "underlying" these lists though.. specifically strengths, ranges, patterns, dynamics and !!! points !!!

@ Algesan

I must concur with the lazors. Way over priced. Easily penetrated by a cheap krak missile and you get a tllc. I'd rather get 2 squads on foot with Missile launchers than a squad and a TLLC.



Final thoughts for tonight:

I like the tony list and all, but I am wondering if its time to consider other ways to run competitive lists with insights we have gained.

I would like to begin a competitive Materia tactica for Black templars which will be a living piece of work (I would encourage people to take part in it too)
I thought something like a website where people can download the file.. write in game experiences/units - upload it back so theres a kind of database.

What does everyone think about that?

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Lucion
05/24/2011 6:24pm

Another thing guys.

If there is a rhino in front - my land speeder is behind it -

in the shooting phase I can shoot over rhino without moving into line of sight - i just fly up, then fly down.

However in the following shooting phase, even if I "land" I can still be shot at - but receive a cover save?

Also, my opponent, they dont receive a cover save of course if they are out in the open, even though I am technically behind my own rhino.

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Lucion
05/25/2011 10:31am

When I wrote about the tactica I dont mean a run through of just the units either but units in lists.

Combations of units in succesful, tried lists, to discover new formulas and stuff

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05/25/2011 12:14pm

@Algesan

I have wondered about the best ratio of Initiates to Neophytes myself. I will accept Learoth's claim for now but I would really like some evidence. Though I suppose I could run some numbers...

Also, you could teleport your Assault Terminators right into the middle of the board or where ever you need them. Don't like them clumped? Then Run and get spaced out. Of course, this does intone a difficulty if they come on late and are unable to do much. But then again that problem exists with all you squads.

There are times when you cannot replace Razorbacks with Predators, but if you can then I agree you probably should. When I try for the 4+2 setup I usually find myself taking Razorbacks for the smaller squads and then using them independently. However, this discussion(s?) have led me to question if that is a good idea.

Finally, when at least I was talking about Las/Flamer squads I was thinking that the Flamer would be better against what the Lascannon has trouble dealing with, such as a horde unit or something. Then, armed with Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons, once the enemy unit is within 12" (when they move there) I don't fire my Lascannon but simply move up, open fire, and charge to clear them out. Small Las/Flame squads mean that the two will probably need to work together but it can still be done. The Flamers simply give them an effective weapon against what they normally have trouble dealing with; of course, a Plasma Gun would be better against tougher infantry but I somehow don't expect them to be in my backfield as much as horde units or even just large groups of Infantry.

++++++

@Lucion

Yes, the last few points do not need to be the best choice all the time and are usually better spent on what the player is more comfortable fielding. I hope you enjoy playing your list. The Land Raider can do well, just perhaps not best.

If you're talking about some sort of Wiki, I don't think that's a good idea. There are too many people who consider things good when they really aren't (the amount of Black Tide players is a prime example) and it could quickly become unreliable. However, a section on here with various articles that people write (obviously checked and edited by Marshal Learoth) may be a good idea. And if you want easy access, you can just copy/paste into a word document or something.

But no, your Land Speeder cannot rise above your Rhino just to shoot. If it does not have Line of Sight where it is then you cannot shoot. But that does work both ways as Line of Sight is measured from the guns (Typhoon Missile Launchers are on top) and your Rhino may easily protect your Land Speeder (though I do not know exactly how they are proportioned).

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Lucion
05/25/2011 3:00pm

@ Dev


Thanks I feel your putting into words precisely what I think about the Land raider.

Nah Im not thinking about a Wkki and I dont think everyone should be allowed to add stuff, just good information, good insights, not everyman and his dog.

Ill write some stuff in a week or two and see what people think, mainly I'll be taking little insights across the board, putting it together, and creating new insights I suppose

@Alge

Why tp terminators and not pod them, much safer no?

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05/25/2011 4:28pm

I'm sure that if you write up something good then you can email it to Marshal Learoth and he will post it specifically for discussion.

Also, while putting Terminators in a Drop Pod is safer (and slightly more accurate) than teleporting them it does cost an extra 30 points.

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05/25/2011 10:23pm

Safer yes, but generally the Terminators start on the board. The two times they didn't was against a 'Nid army with Doom of Mylanta (only the Speeders did in hopes that it would pop up on turn 2, which it did and the Speeders shot it down) and a Chaos Demon army when I kept everything off the board.

In the meantime, that is 90 points I saved.

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Lucion
05/26/2011 4:08am

Anyone have experience using CML terms and AC terms in tandem?

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05/26/2011 11:14am

Well, Theoryhammer dictates that using one of each in the same squad is a bad idea.

But the problem with Assault Cannon Terminators is that they cost practically as much as CML Terminators. So if you have enough Fire Support elsewhere then they may be able to work, but it isn't very likely.

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05/26/2011 12:00pm

I think he is referring to having a squad with CML and a squad with AssCans. I'll admit I've thought about it, but just cannot see the reason why to split like that. I could justify going with pure AssCans in my two squads, but while 4x S6 AP4, Rending shots are nice, for ten more points I can have 4x S8 AP3 shots plus the option to lay out 4x S4 AP6 Blast templates. Oh yeah, the range difference matters too.

Rending is nice, so let's say I roll a "6". Well, I just forced a cover/invulnerable save. For almost all models in the game, the AP3 of the krak missile does the same thing. If the models are tight, I can go with the Blast if they are in cover to rack up torrent of fire saves. I won my game against the Chaos Demons by fragging and heavy boltering his troop units down until I was left with a squad in cover on an objective covered by Terminators and Speeders (blocking passage) at the end of the game.

Oh, Rending does give you +D3 armor penetration against vehicles, which does give the possibility of getting a 15. However, the average penetration, assuming you roll the "6" is only 2, which is 14, just like the krak does when it rolls a "6". Without the "6" roll, you have only glance on Rhino AV11, while krak penetrates on a 4+.

Also, I don't have to give up my Storm Bolters to field the CML, which IMO makes that extra 5 points worth the cost.

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Lucion
05/26/2011 1:18pm

Thanks guys.

Just played a decent game vs a tournament sw list. Did ok with this list

It was 1.5k points


* Emperor's Champion w/ Black Sword, Bolt Pistol, Armor of Faith, Frag Grenades, and the Vow: "Accept Any Challenge, No Matter the Odds". [110]

Elites:
* Sword Brethren Terminators: 5 Terminators w/ 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers, 5 Storm Bolters, 5 Power Fists, and Tank-Hunters. [265]
* Sword Brethren Terminators: 5 Terminators w/ 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers, 5 Storm Bolters, 5 Power Fists, and Tank-Hunters. [265]

Troops:
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 5 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons, 1 Meltagun, 1 Multi melta. Mounted in a Rhino w/ Smoke Launchers & search lights. [154]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 5 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons, 1 Meltagun, 1 Multi melta. Mounted in a Rhino w/ Smoke Launchers & search lights. [154]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 4 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons & 1 Missile launcher. [90]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 4 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons & 1 Missile launcher. [90]

Fast Attack:
* Land Speeder: Heavy Bolter and Typhoon Missile Launchers. [70]
* Land Speeder: Heavy Bolter and Typhoon Missile Launchers. [70]


Heavy Support:
* Land Raider : x2 God Hammers, Twin linked Heavy bolters, Smoke launchers, search lights. [254]


The game was a draw and whilst abhor the witch was handy, I am concerned over the loss of AAC and melee threats.

I am considering the combination of a CML terminator squad and a assault terminator squad next time.

I dont have the massed razors with tllc even though its recommended, and although that maybe best, have some faith in dual ML foot squads and 2 rhinos with guys.

I also felt the land raider was a waste, it wouldnt die but basically, it doesnt put out enough firepower for what it does - land raider needs a big healthy squad inside, and it should be a LRC because of the free multi melta and extra armour.

The CML terminator squad is much much better than autolas preds, you lose the auto cannon but the manageability is much better.

Typhoons are ok, mainly disruption but worth it mainly for late game capping.

I am thinking more like this for the next game at 1.5k

1750

* Emperor's Champion w/ Black Sword, Bolt Pistol, Armor of Faith, Frag Grenades, and the Vow: "Accept Any Challenge, No Matter the Odds". [110]

Elites:
* Sword Brethren Terminators: 5 Terminators w/ 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers, 5 Storm Bolters, 5 Power Fists, and Tank-Hunters. [265]
* Sword Brethren Assault Terminators: 5 Terminators w/ 3 Lightning claws, 2 Thunder hammers. [215]

Troops:
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 5 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons, 1 Meltagun, 1 Multi melta. Mounted in a Rhino w/ Smoke Launchers & search lights. [154]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 5 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons, 1 Meltagun, 1 Multi melta. Mounted in a Rhino w/ Smoke Launchers & search lights. [154]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 4 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons & 1 Missile launcher. [90]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 4 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons & 1 Missile launcher. [90]

Fast Attack:
* Land Speeder: Heavy Bolter and Typhoon Missile Launchers. [70]
* Land Speeder: Heavy Bolter and Typhoon Missile Launchers. [70]


Heavy Support:
* Land Raider Crusader : x2 Hurricane bolters, Assault cannon, Multi melta, Smoke launchers, [268]
1486pts

Reply
Lucion
05/26/2011 1:23pm

I am also considering trying dual predator annihilators instead of the CML terminators for a change.

It loses the management ability but its doing something no other SM list can do.

With regards to the troops, the dual melta squads were nice for pressuring, although need to remember to pop smoke when going up "lol".

I do think 2 is not enough though, if your going this style of play one should just get at least 3-4.

Reply
Lucion
05/26/2011 2:14pm

So I've been thinking about the CML terminators. Their great, however, I feel their assault element is not going to get used in much games, as most stuff that comes to them will prob assault from vehicles and maul them.

Interesting thought for base capture is Tri las preds and ML guys on foot.

I would say auto las, but my experience so far is those las cannons are not enough to put av 14 things to a FULL stop. I had a game the other day firing 4 las cannons for like 3 turns and.. it just wasnt enough.

So I say tri las. The ML guys can get 4+s from the vehicles, or simply, being in the same vicinity, no one wants to come close to dual tri las and preds at 1.5 k points.

Sure, you lose anti horde, but dual hb and auto cannon was only giving 1 extra shot anyway.

Im a little sad about removing the typhoon, and may cut out an initiate squad next time instead, we'll see how it goes, for now, heres the new list


* Emperor's Champion w/ Black Sword, Bolt Pistol, Armor of Faith, Frag Grenades, and the Vow: "Accept Any Challenge, No Matter the Odds". [140]

Elites:
* Sword Brethren Terminators: 5 Terminators w/ 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers, 5 Storm Bolters, 5 Power Fists, and Tank-Hunters. [265]
* Sword Brethren Terminators: 5 Terminators w/ 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers, 5 Storm Bolters, 5 Power Fists, and Tank-Hunters. [265]
* Sword Brethren Terminator Assault Squad : 7 Terminators w/ 4 Thunder hammers + Storm shields, 3 Lightning Claws and Furious charge. [320]

Troops:
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 5 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons, 1 Meltagun, 1 Multi melta. Mounted in a Rhino w/ Smoke Launchers & search lights. [154]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 5 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons, 1 Meltagun, 1 Multi melta. Mounted in a Rhino w/ Smoke Launchers & search lights. [154]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 5 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons, 1 Meltagun, 1 Multi melta. Mounted in a Rhino w/ Smoke Launchers. [153]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 4 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons & 1 Missile launcher. [90]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 4 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons & 1 Missile launcher. [90]

Fast Attack:
* Land Speeder: Heavy Bolter and Typhoon Missile Launchers. [70]
* Land Speeder: Heavy Bolter and Typhoon Missile Launchers. [70]


Heavy Support:
* Land Raider : x2 God Hammers, Twin linked Heavy bolters, Smoke launchers, search lights. [254]

2k points
1750

* Emperor's Champion w/ Black Sword, Bolt Pistol, Armor of Faith, Frag Grenades, and the Vow: "Accept Any Challenge, No Matter the Odds". [110]

Elites:
* Sword Brethren Terminators: 5 Terminators w/ 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers, 5 Storm Bolters, 5 Power Fists, and Tank-Hunters. [265]
* Sword Brethren Assault Terminators: 5 Terminators w/ 3 Lightning claws, 2 Thunder hammers. [215]

Troops:
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 5 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons, 1 Meltagun, 1 power sword Mounted in a Rhino w/ Smoke Launchers & search lights. [154]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 5 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons, 1 Meltagun, 1 power sword. Mounted in a Rhino w/ Smoke Launchers & search lights. [154]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 4 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons & 1 Missile launcher. [90]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 4 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons & 1 Missile launcher. [90]

Fast Attack:
* Land Speeder: Heavy Bolter and Typhoon Missile Launchers. [70]
* Land Speeder: Heavy Bolter and Typhoon Missile Launchers. [70]


Heavy Support:
* Land Raider Crusader : x2 Hurricane bolters, Assault cannon, Multi melta, Smoke launchers, [268]
1486pts



* Emperor's Champion w/ Black Sword, Bolt Pistol, Armor of Faith, Frag Grenades, and the Vow: "Accept Any Challenge, No Matter the Odds". [140]

Elites:
* Sword Brethren Assault Terminators: 5 Terminators w/ 3 Lightning claws, 2 Thunder hammers. [215]

Troops:
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 5 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons, 1 Meltagun, 1 power sword, 2 initiates Mounted in a Rhino w/ Smoke Launchers & search lights. [174]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 5 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons, 1 Meltagun, 1 power sword, 1 initiate. Mounted in a Rhino w/ Smoke Launchers [163]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 4 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons & 1 Missile launcher. [90]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 4 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons & 1 Missile launcher. [90]

Fast Attack:
* Land Speeder: Heavy Bolter and Typhoon Missile Launchers. [70]


Heavy Support:
* Land Raider Crusader : x2 Hurricane bolters, Assault cannon, Multi melta, Smoke launchers, [268]
* Predator annihilator: Twin linked Las cannon, Las cannon sponsons [145]
* Predator annihilator: Twin linked Las cannon, Las cannon sponsons [145]

1500pts

Reply
Lucion
05/26/2011 3:41pm

On my search for new bits of information I found this.

Perhaps TLLC razors are the way?

:)

http://yesthetruthhurts.com/2010/07/40k-army-building-basics-primer-by/

Reply
05/27/2011 9:39am

Minor tweak. You have two foot squads with missile launchers and I'm the last to tell you that that is a bad way to spend your points, I've brought the point up enough here. However, looking over the rest of your lists, I'll note that you are short of Typhoon Speeders in all of these lists.

Suggest that you pull one of these: * Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 4 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons & 1 Missile launcher. [90]

And replace it with another Typhoon + one Neophyte each for two of the Rhino squads.

Then change the weapons of the other Missile Launcher Crusader squad from BP/CCW to Bolter. Again, stagnant unit that would prefer not to move, so give it 4x bolt shots out to 24" or 8x out to 12". Long story short, out of necessity I pulled some AoBR bolter Marines out as I was trying to ramp up from a 1000 point army to 2000 point army that at least had black armor and white shoulders in two weeks. The usefulness of having an objective sitting squad of bolter armed troops plinking away at targets two feet away (as opposed to watching them go by with my BP/CCW squads) may not have won me any games, but it doesn't hurt anything either. It will kill about 1/2 a MEQ or an Orc or almost a couple of IG.

Reply
Lucion
05/27/2011 5:25pm

Thanks Algesan.
I was considering this. The list begins to look like Laeroths all comers list, and favourite one to play :)

Sure gotta love rolling up the LRC hey!

Despite going against what is best, I'd still try it at a tournament, at 1750, an LRC that is.

Going back to the main topic, are there any other ways templars might run these list elements.

For example, not 3 advancing squads, but 2, and 3 at the back?

Reply
05/28/2011 10:08pm

Grrr, that is partly a preference question. Personally, I'd only want one or two in the back on foot. Mobility is too useful but dedicated home objective sitters/fire support MSU squads don't hurt anything IMO. Of course, this from the Drop Pod guy, but then I consider the Pod to be what delivers my troops to objectives _plus_ I carry an "extra" troop over the usual 1/500 points, so I do have a throwaway squad, often used as a suicide melta.

OTOH, Laeroth's Nova list is full of backfield sitters, although I think he will move them up after he has pulled his Alpha Strike. Note that he has no unmounted squads either, which is what we are proposing. All of them have the potential to advance.

If we are getting into the "Zen" of list building, then we just need to cover certain bases. The three phases of the game highlight three of the core items, but one that gets missed often is controlling the initiative.

Look up "40k Water Army" online. That is a nice little article. I wouldn't write it that way, but the concepts are solid. Every army has a series of strengths in Movement (Air), Shooting (Fire), Assault (Earth). The "Water" army matches where it is stronger against where the opposing list is weaker. Basic stuff really, but where I think the key is when he refers to which army is the "beatdown" army. If you know if your army has to do the "beatdown" or develop and survive your opponent's "beatdown". That is where grabbing and maintaining the initiative comes into play and where I'm weakest.

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05/28/2011 11:19pm

Insanely crazy week at work. I'll make my reply tomorrow night. Same drill, different week.

*Sad to see all of his free time dry up*

Reply
05/29/2011 5:03am

Time? Free Time? What is this strange concept? Actually, I think I should have some next week...well, I'll finish what is sucking my time up by Wed, but then I have to catch up on all the things I've deferred, which means deferring other things and I still have to....Ahhh!

<big evil grin> It never goes away.

Reply
Lucion
05/31/2011 8:16am

Thanks Algesan I think I read it a year ago, but will do so again.

Reply
05/31/2011 6:06pm

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=101214

Use this link, not the "Librarium" version.

Reply
06/01/2011 9:10pm

Alright, I wrote down what I'd comment on, but I didn't write down who mentioned what...and there are A LOT of comments in this blog post so I don't want to go find out. Wow. :D

Anyway, I'll try to keep this pretty short. First, about the Crusader squad ratio: there will be a separate post concerning this. Its primarily mathhammer based.

Lucion, I sent you an email concerning the tactica you're referencing. I agree, for things to be hosted here, I'd have to review the information and ensure it was up to a certain standard. If it is, then we'll have no problem. But it may not be, at which point, we'll have to do some editing. Remember, while I value community input to facilitate learning, Implausible Nature is a place where you can find undiluted competitive information regarding the Black Templars. :D

Lucion, regarding your Land Speeders: Rhinos do not create Hull Down (50% obscured) for the speeders. Even using the little plastic post. However, a Predator does and that is what I use to grant my cover saves. You can shoot over the top of them via the vantage point of the guns, but your enemy needs to shoot your hull, not your guns so you get cover. Unfortunately, you cannot fly down and land. You have to stay at the same level all game unless you are immobilized or destroyed.

The discussion regarding the Lascannon/Flamer crusader squads can be found in the comment section. http://www.implausiblenature.net/1/post/2011/05/prepping-for-the-nova-open-over-compensation.html#comments

I agree with everything that Algesan said regarding the AC's and CML's on the Terminators, so I don't really need to rehash that number. In addition, I agree with your assessment of the LR Lucion. Though, I did mention that before. I tried to warn ya'll. Even with improved PotMS, it sucks balls. ;)

It is a very important part of my Nova list, the mobility. Each of my units HAVE to have transports, especially since they are deep in my deployment zone. Once the Alpha Strike is finished and my opponent sufficiently crippled, they jump into the razorbacks and advance to claim the needed objectives. If I didn't have a transport, I wouldn't be able to do this and my list would be seriously flawed. If I'm taking a transport, I'd rather it did something (i.e. shooting).

Finally, the AC/Las vs Tri-Las discussion. I have already done it before. Two places actually, but I'll link both. I stand by the AC/Las Predator over the Tri-Las 98% of the time. :)

1) http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=228753&view=findpost&p=2743059

2) http://www.implausiblenature.net/1/post/2010/03/talk-of-the-town-black-templars-predators.html

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