Lol this is funny and slightly upsetting. There must be a mis understanding.

I wrote some pretty sucky lists on 10th of may. I accept that lrc and vindi sucks ok. On the 17th I wrote a full of kupach analysis for bt [wrote about 2 hours of thoughts]. Today I find for representing myself on kupach your using the sucky list from the 10th of may and disregarding my work on the 17th.

Hope you can see things from my pov..

Thanks for the change. Much better representation, sorry for moaning just written so much here. Girlfriend is moaning now grrr. Will get back soon.

I think the most important thing for bts is the core of kupach list.

that's the troops.

Consider kupach used nyal and In the final game vs stelek nyal only killed 2 marines and a storm bolter.

Perhaps a lrc is viable after all?

Ps i think this could be a use for sb but as dev said a pod maybe better. Ah so much excitement and fresh thoughts. Back soon..

@ Marshal Learoth

Yes, your list does replicate his as well as I think we can. But what I was trying to do was improve it while maintaining a similar style. But in his list the Scouts seem almost an afterthought, not meant to be a good part of the list almost. I think that a Marshal would do much better than them for the points as we cannot have a unit quite as good, more cost and less reliability.

But the exchange of Terminators for Predators is one I can no longer stand by. Between now and when I posted I have come to the realization (largely from your comment) that it is not an automatically better option, mostly from the Shaken results and the ability to move 6" every turn and fire at full capacity. SO I understand your reasons here.

In the end, the only real change I can encourage is a Marshal instead of the Sword Brethren. Give him a Storm Shield, Storm Bolter, and 5 more points of equipment and he costs the same while providing a greater utility to the rest of the army than the Sword Brethren, or even a Melta Drop, can provide unless it is done well.

I'm going to have to read some more breakdowns on how the list was actually played, but looking at his 2k list, some things pop out. First, target priority is straightforward. The two Lazorbacks have to go, but I already have the two Tank Hunting dual Cyclone Terminators and those will probably put paid to them. If need be I can commit Typhoon fire to them to finish them, but I'd prefer to use them to beat down the Long Fangs.

As soon as those are eliminated it becomes a matter of popping the rest of the transports, dealing with the TWC and cleaning up. My five Crusaders in pods will do for providing anywhere on the board flexibility of deployment and my Assault Terminator squad fulfills the bubblewrap/countercharge slot to deal with leakers.

Lots of melta in there, but then I don't have many vehicles and they can all outrun the melta units. The main thing is to keep them away from my Terminators as long as possible.

I don't know the full capabilities of the TWC and Njal, but this looks (in theory) to be a straight beatdown of LR firepower and mobility followed by killing. Of course, this list just won two big tournaments, so I may be talking out of my arse, but why strain to build something close when we have all the tools already in the Drop/DS lists?

My argument for a lr as being viable is 2 reasons.

1. If tony can use a 240 pt character with 2 wounds which in the final game vs stelek kills 2 marines and a storm bolter, well, I will try my chances for 10 or 25 pts more with a raider.

2. Bt 101 was very good but our transports still suck ass. Taking the tony list we pay on average 110 points more than space wolf for taking our rhinos 15 points more x 3 and razors 35 points more each piece.

First of all it seems quite certain now that a new and competitive bt archetype is dev terminators. They have showed up consistently on all the decent bt sources and with aac you have great duality.

Now. Going through the response a bit at a time as my phone has a tendency to lose the msg.

The marshal is a nice addition. Without a doubt. But in an intense capture game will he do much or would that 1 extra squad be more significant?

The land raider is an off thought but with this list I think its worth playtesting. What would happen is you swap 2 razors and the marshal for upgrading a rhino to a lrc or lr. Is it worth it?

2 over priced razor who shoot one shot a turn and a marshal who is not essential for upgrading a rhino into a lr.
But is its threat enough, could it benefit the army more?

So you get 3 cru squads to break the line, 2 rhinos and a lr. Yes the other squads who capture then have to walk but what were they doing anyway? Sitting in a taxi?

Again I don't know how well my theory will work out. 2 rounds of shooting should hurt a lot of stuff to help the lr transition on. I am also considering the normal lr too, come on 6 inch,fire both, after picking up the terms and changing their dynamic as needed.

I am not sure how it will work out and orignally I was doing this with 3 term squads.

Laeroth infact you could just lose 2 razor = 180 points. Lose marshal. That's 300 pts. Add basic lr. Add 1 rhino. No one has to walk except terms

Going back to the initial lists.

I am quite sold on the core of this.
The troops work together bringing out the best of bt.

I am also convinced on typhoons. With the rhinos to hide behind you can shoot and claim almost invulnerability in the enemy shooting turn.

The question in the big picture then is just how are our terminators going to fit in? A wall of rhino advancing,
Pressuring, typhoons firing, and a ack wall of figures shooting 8 str. 9 per turn.

Despite their straight up shootyness and ability to absorb damage I am curious how we will get the terminators to blend in. Perhaps it will be advancing with the rhinos?

Maybe 1 squad stays back and 1 advances?

This again is why I suggested a lr which could create interesting late game moves should it survive.

As before though I am not sure on whether lr or lrc. A lr is safer. Lrc will get in melta range quickly. I think lr is better. Sit back and shoot for 2 turns then pick up some remaining terms and go full in for the last turns.

Hey dev, thx for comments.

First list with a lr actually keeps 4 rhinos and 1 land raider. So the 3 melta fist guys get rhinos.

Only guys who need to get out are an objective squad -no problem!

Back to your main point. Could you expand a bit on that please I think an example of the "different ways to fill different roles” is needed.

Makes me think of other patterns in proven winning lists that might be drafted in to see how bt might fit about them.

Good points algesan and a well needed stir on what's happening.

Thing is rhinos can do lots of tricks. Pods can't.

We have stuck to the kupach list but replication has its limits.

Dude on twc is basically one bad ass wolf lord,3 wounds, eternal warrior, an independent threat.

We can't do that.

Nyal sends out bolts of doom from a rhino and messes up enemy movement.

We can't do that.

Our strenth is aac.

What can we do is lrc and assault terms. It messes up the dynamics though.

Another way to draw more fire is simply another cml term squad,

So its x3 cml term squads

Command squads at this level we go with a cheap reclusiarch,3 cenobytes,and 5 of a command squad with apoth. That is 220 pts and has fnp which will be conferred to a castellan or marshal with a command squad of termies. Might just be better to take an offensive stance with extra termies though rather than have one tough unit.

I am opting for more terms.
If we push it and lose the lr and typhoons It would be like. Castellan and cml terms plus 3 squads of terms with cml. 16 str 9 missiles. Everything benefits from aac. We switch to 16 frags if horde. Good bye orks lol

@ Lucion

Assault Terminators are the strongest close combat unit we have and fill the role the best because they are a specialist unit. Further they are known (specifically the Black Templar Assault Terminators with AAC) which makes them even better at making the enemy more cautious.

But CML Terminators provide Duality when they do it. But if you put them in an LRC then they have to get out to shoot.

Granted, the Sword Brethren wouldn't be able to do the job very well, but 2 units of 7 with a PoLC, Power Weapon, Terminator Honors on those two, in a Rhino, with Furious Charge comes to 502 points and each can be seen as a dangerous Close Combat unit. Similarly with a Command Squad: Apothecary, Seargeant with Terminator Honors and a Lightning Claw, a Fighting Company Champion, led by a Reclusiarch with a Bolt Pistol, 6 other members, all with Furious Charge in a Rhino comes to 372 points. You don't want to engage either squad except with something that can take, so either a similar set up or a Dedicated Close Combat unit.

The Heavy Flamer Terminators and Assault Cannon Terminators benefit from being strong in close combat and, since they are in an LRC they can count on getting shots off and then the charge. They are as good in the assault as CML Terminators but come cheaper and don't have to worry about shooting as that is not what they are brought for. They also have the added benefit, over the Assault Terminators, of having massed shots and templates to deal with hordes.

But, all that said, not all of the options are equal. If you take the Command Squad you can only have one without dropping something else from the list. The Sword Brethren aren't anywhere near as good as any version of the Terminators but try to make up for that by having two units, which the Terminator cannot do in this particular list as they are paying for the LRC. Also note that this is a specific role which makes the short range of the HF and Assault Cannon Terminators less of a burden.

These units count as shock, for the purposes here, but you're right; they are almost never a competitive option.

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Thank you, Lucion, for adding up what Kopach actually spent on his troops. I failed to do that and simply looked at what we were spending and thus made a mistake. So this does not demonstrate that we should spend more on troops, we should still aim for around 40%.

You also make a good point about the other lists that were in the final games. I will make sure to look at those lists and perhaps take a hand at replicating them myself.

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As the list is now, we have 10 Terminators and 30 Initiates which means that, under Stelek's comment, we have enough to be worth taking AAC. Though since you brought it up I will keep that in mind when making lists with AAC.

Also, both of those lists are focusing on a particular idea. The first is a static list without transports. The second is specifically intended to make use of Suffer Not, and is a Black Tide list. Neither one has aspects that could be integrated into this one except what is already there.

@ Marshal Learoth

For what it's worth, the Land Raider can indeed fire at two targets. The only difference is that it has to decide what it is shooting at before rolling the dice, so while you can focus the Razorbacks' guns you cannot as easily while using the Land Raider without the chance of overkill. Also while you can chain-shake the Razorbacks with light weapons, you can only silence 1 of the Land Raider's Lascannons by shaking it.

I still think that a Land Raider could work in the list. But it wouldn't be quite as good due to not having fire-points and having to replace one of the Rhinos, thus putting it more in Melta range.

I agree with decreasing the Power Fists to Power Weapons. While the Power Fist is better against light vehicles (in close range) and high-toughness things, it is better to simply shoot those rather than endangering yourself in close combat and having the right number of Initiates is always good.

But I cannot agree with dropping down to a Castellan. As you said, we'll be in metal boxes and thus will not have to take as many morale checks. But a Marshal can benefit the Terminators; a Castellan will only benefit the Crusader Squads (who won't be making very many checks). It makes him hardly worth the points. Those 108 points you are spending on him could be used to buy an extra Terminator in each squad, improving their durability and Close Combat effectiveness, as well as upgrading those Power Weapons back into Power Fists (which, when points permit, are a good insurance).

I suppose that we don't need a Shock unit with the close combat strength of our troops (they should be able to defeat Tony Kopach's troops) and so we may not need that particular role to be filled. However, that role can be filled in other lists and could be done with our Crusader Squad plus a powerful Independant Character, such as a Marshal with Lightning Claw and Storm Shield or the Emperor's Champion.

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Now, a thought about the list which cannot really be implemented but worth considering in later lists. When Las/Plas squads are taken they often are also used to purchase a Razorback with TL Lascannon. But for an extra 10 points you can get a Predator Annihilator without any sponsons. It does the same job (firing a TL Lascannon) but has front AV 13. Of course, you lose out on not being able to transport the squad, but you can spend an extra 10 points and get Heavy Bolter sponsons which gives it duality (and you cannot get duality with a Razorback except through its squad).

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@ Lucion

While building a good core and then adding in some things that you like, despite how effective it is, will not make a list 'bad'. I assume (by the picture at the beginning) that Marshal Learoth is intending to include this list in his Black Templar guide. Thus, in the spirit of the website, the list must be as competitive as possible. I don't think that including a Land Raider, especially not a Land Raider Crusader, improves the list much.

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@ Neophyte Bob

I hope you don't feel neglected. With your first list I would switch the Power Weapon on the Drop Pod Crusader Squad to a Power Fist to add to their ability against vehicles (improving their disruption capability). I would also drop the PoLC on your Sword Brethren in favor of a Powerfist (for the same reason).

For your second list I don't think it has a good premise. Bikes aren't a very good unit and need ablative wounds (by having a full squad) or else they are easily dealt with. Further, you are spending an insane amount on your Marshal. I would decrease him down to minimum, drop the bikes, and buy a Techmarine with a Servo-Harness, Bolt Pistol, and Storm Shield for taking on major threats. With him you get a 2+/3++ save, 2 wounds, 3 Power Weapons attacks, and 2 Power Fist attacks for 121 points. You also have a Flamer and a Twin-Linked Plasma Pistol so he can sit in a squad and provide support until they get near a Monstrous Creature or an Independant Character when he can split off from the squad.

@ Lucion

Just because people can have success with a unit does not make it competitive. What's competitive is not "totally subjective". Painting is subjective, the fluff is subjective, personal preference is subjective, competitiveness is not.

A unit's competitiveness is based on many, many factors. To name off a few there is one for each number in the stat line, a factor for each special rule, the opportunity cost, how many and what kind of weapons including Power Weapons (and the like) as well as special and heavy weapons, what their standard load out is, what the rest of the list is, what you want them to do, your play style, psychological effects they have on the opponent, the list goes on and probably cannot be completed by the likes of me.

That is why people disagree and make it appear subjective, they are simply missing factors when they consider the unit. Also, very few of the factors change over time except through new editions or over the course of numerous codex updates (for other codices) so there is no "what's competitive now".

While player skill plays an immense factor in who wins and loses, it is not the sole factor nor greater than all the others. Evidence of this is that in the higher tiers of tournaments you will not see completely unoptimized lists. You will probably see some like Tony's which aren't fully optimized, but he would not have done as well if he had used a list lacking a strong core.

Do you have to take an optimized list? No, you don't. In fact, some think that you do better if you don't take the most optimized list and instead replace a few things with units or upgrades that you are more comfortable with; and these are competitive gamers who know how to play Warhammer well.

Yes, he liked Njal. I don't know all of what Njal does but I doubt he was a bad choice, just not an optimal choice. For all I know Njal might have given a special rule that was key for Tony to use some aspect of his army.

But that does not make a Land Raider, or its variants, an optimal choice for the list. It does not fit with one of the list's main defenses, namely the number of Rhinos and Razorbacks on the field. So your opponent has fewer decisions to make when targeting you vehicles and you lose the option to tote around the smaller Flamer squads. Target selection cannot be measured, but again that does not make it subjective.

I also want to point out something, you said "Why do you play this game and choose units 'oh cos I read these guys and they said this woz competitive...so im taking it cos they said it woz good..but I dont know..'" and "Laeroth does this exceptionally and its the true wisdom of a teacher - who helps you find your own 'inner knowledge' and not judging you. He gives room and guidance, and that is the single best thing one can give."

Now, I take offense at the first set of quotes. I was raised and taught to think, several of my school courses were dedicated to independent thought, logic, even study of philosophy to some extent. I do not hold by anything because someone else said so, nor do I give my opinion if I'm unsure without making it quite clear that I am unsure. I have learned from other people but not blindly, I have used my own reason to decide if they are right.

I cannot speak for Marshal Learoth's methods as I have not taken specific notice of any techniques he may or may not use. But I do know that you do not have 'Inner Knowledge' and you do not need 'room' to learn. Information and understanding do not just bubble up to the surface of your mind, it is taught to you either by yourself or someone else.

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@ Learoth

Okay, I was thinking about him as a Ld booster, which is why I normally take him, rather than simply a close combat improvement. I would either drop the commander entirely in favor of having nice little upgrades like Extra Armor on the vehicles and full 6-man units in the Razorbacks; or I would upgrade him to a Marshal to provide not only close combat efficiency but also Ld boosting, two roles filled for an extra 15 points.

And I'm glad that you thought about the Auspex more than I did. I knew that they would be in a Rhino so you would really only get a Meltagun and a Bolt Pistol fired at any enemies, but since they will be out of range I suppose that the Krak Grenades would actually be better.

NOTE: For those that don't know, I run an exclusive Deep Strike list, but most games I deploy the Terminators (both kinds) and Typhoon Speeders on the board.

@Laeroth: I agree, I don't know if I would lose the PF, but... I see where you are coming from there.

I might be an oddball, but I never had any trouble with 6/3 & 7/3 Crusader squads. I really don't mind 6/4 or 5/4 either, but it can put you in a bit of a spot where you have to take a hit on a Neophyte that you would normally put on an Initiate for his better armor save. Worth the points for me sometimes.

One reason I field two THDC Terminators and one 3/2 Assault Terminator squad stems from the need for a studly CC unit. Crusaders with AAC get the job done for most things, but with MSU, it isn't so hot.

Oh, the Assault squad rarely gets to do the cross the board and slam into the enemy thing (and in my last game, took one loss and failed the RZ test right off the board) that everyone says it needs to be doing. Mainly it gets to get "in the middle" and play king of the hill. Ignore it, it eats you for lunch, work around it (since it is on foot) and its done its job, shoot it to death, praise the Emperor, that just soaked up a lot of firepower for a unit that doesn't have a mission critical offensive job.

I get away with this because I focus on controlling the initiative with deep striking, punching out transports (walking is better for your health) and killing long range stuff that can kill my Speeders.

On the Lazorbacks, I'm really starting to dislike them. Thin skinned and you can buy another Predator for the cost of a pair of them. Also I buy into Stelek's 4+2 Troop theory (four mobile squads plus two MSU foot ones with LC, PC or ML for fire support). Some armies may like 100% mobility, but Marines don't need it IMO.

@Several people: What is up with the Lascannon/Flamer squads? Really, those are back line fire support and for the same price as the Flamer you can get the Plasmagun with a 24" range (since you shouldn't be moving with that LC) that can force anything to take an invulnerable (cover) save that wounds almost everything on a 2+. Why do I want an 8" teardrop template that is worthless against any enemy who can move up to 12" since they are then within move + charge range?

I love flamers with Sisters, but then that is the Heavy Flamer (not Flamer) + Meltagun combo at work with faith powers.

@Algesan

I have wondered about the best ratio of Initiates to Neophytes myself. I will accept Learoth's claim for now but I would really like some evidence. Though I suppose I could run some numbers...

Also, you could teleport your Assault Terminators right into the middle of the board or where ever you need them. Don't like them clumped? Then Run and get spaced out. Of course, this does intone a difficulty if they come on late and are unable to do much. But then again that problem exists with all you squads.

There are times when you cannot replace Razorbacks with Predators, but if you can then I agree you probably should. When I try for the 4+2 setup I usually find myself taking Razorbacks for the smaller squads and then using them independently. However, this discussion(s?) have led me to question if that is a good idea.

Finally, when at least I was talking about Las/Flamer squads I was thinking that the Flamer would be better against what the Lascannon has trouble dealing with, such as a horde unit or something. Then, armed with Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons, once the enemy unit is within 12" (when they move there) I don't fire my Lascannon but simply move up, open fire, and charge to clear them out. Small Las/Flame squads mean that the two will probably need to work together but it can still be done. The Flamers simply give them an effective weapon against what they normally have trouble dealing with; of course, a Plasma Gun would be better against tougher infantry but I somehow don't expect them to be in my backfield as much as horde units or even just large groups of Infantry.

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@Lucion

Yes, the last few points do not need to be the best choice all the time and are usually better spent on what the player is more comfortable fielding. I hope you enjoy playing your list. The Land Raider can do well, just perhaps not best.

If you're talking about some sort of Wiki, I don't think that's a good idea. There are too many people who consider things good when they really aren't (the amount of Black Tide players is a prime example) and it could quickly become unreliable. However, a section on here with various articles that people write (obviously checked and edited by Marshal Learoth) may be a good idea. And if you want easy access, you can just copy/paste into a word document or something.

But no, your Land Speeder cannot rise above your Rhino just to shoot. If it does not have Line of Sight where it is then you cannot shoot. But that does work both ways as Line of Sight is measured from the guns (Typhoon Missile Launchers are on top) and your Rhino may easily protect your Land Speeder (though I do not know exactly how they are proportioned).

I'm sure that if you write up something good then you can email it to Marshal Learoth and he will post it specifically for discussion.

Also, while putting Terminators in a Drop Pod is safer (and slightly more accurate) than teleporting them it does cost an extra 30 points.

I think he is referring to having a squad with CML and a squad with AssCans. I'll admit I've thought about it, but just cannot see the reason why to split like that. I could justify going with pure AssCans in my two squads, but while 4x S6 AP4, Rending shots are nice, for ten more points I can have 4x S8 AP3 shots plus the option to lay out 4x S4 AP6 Blast templates. Oh yeah, the range difference matters too.

Rending is nice, so let's say I roll a "6". Well, I just forced a cover/invulnerable save. For almost all models in the game, the AP3 of the krak missile does the same thing. If the models are tight, I can go with the Blast if they are in cover to rack up torrent of fire saves. I won my game against the Chaos Demons by fragging and heavy boltering his troop units down until I was left with a squad in cover on an objective covered by Terminators and Speeders (blocking passage) at the end of the game.

Oh, Rending does give you +D3 armor penetration against vehicles, which does give the possibility of getting a 15. However, the average penetration, assuming you roll the "6" is only 2, which is 14, just like the krak does when it rolls a "6". Without the "6" roll, you have only glance on Rhino AV11, while krak penetrates on a 4+.

Also, I don't have to give up my Storm Bolters to field the CML, which IMO makes that extra 5 points worth the cost.

Thanks Algesan I think I read it a year ago, but will do so again.