Implausible Nature
  • Home
    • Links and Contact Page
    • Site Index
    • Site Primer >
      • Casual vs Competitive Players -- Healing the Divide
      • Laeroth's Take On Building Fluffy Armies
  • Laeroth's Blog
  • The Njesta Crusade
    • Black Templars Army Lists
    • Njesta Crusade Fluff >
      • Black Templars Background Literature
  • Black Templars 101
    • BT 101: Where to Start >
      • BT 101: Unit Analysis
      • BT 101: Building Low-Point BT Armies
      • BT 101: Commonly Used Abbreviations
    • BT 101: Building an 9th Edition List >
      • BT 101: Building A Competitive 9th Edition List
      • BT 101: Building Another Competitive 9th Edition List
    • BT 101: Assembling Your Crusade
    • BT 101: Playing With Your New Army >
      • BT 101: Tactics
      • BT 101: Duality
    • BT 101: The Conclusion
  • Painting and Modeling
    • Black Templars Gallery
    • How To Paint Black Templars

Black Templars Unit Analysis:  Transports in 6th Edition

8/5/2012

20 Comments

 
Hello again everyone!  Its time to move on to the next portion of my unit analysis, the Black Templars Transports.  Unfortunately for us, we only have a few to choose from:  the Rhino, Razorback, and Drop Pod.  Which is pretty standard fare for Space Marine armies.  These vehicles were integral to our armies in 5th Edition, so let's take a look at them in today's environment.  Will they play as big a part as they did previously?  Or is everyone correct in their doomsday predictions that mechanization is dead?  We'll just have to see now won't we?  ;)

Note:  Both variations of our Land Raiders can transport units as well, but I'll be doing those in the Heavy Support article.

Rhino:

Ah, yes.  The humble Rhino.  It was the key cog in many of our lists over the past few years, providing our relatively fragile units protection and mobility.  While it remained somewhat pricy compared to the newer 5th Edition codices, it was a vehicle that you couldn't leave home without.  Having the ability to maneuver around the battlefield was that important, and honestly, it still is.

There have been some changes, however.  Gone are the days where you can drop close combat-oriented troops from normal transports.  In case you're not familiar with the rules, that is due to not being able to assault the turn you disembark from your transport (unless its an assault vehicle).  In addition, a disembarking action cannot be made if the transport moved more than 6" in that movement phase.  Kind of a bummer right?  Well, if it makes you feel any better, every other army has to deal with this "nerf" as well.

So gone is one of the huge reasons for taking transports.  But are they still useful?  Absolutely!  They still give us protection and mobility.  These are things that will probably become even more important going forward in 6th Edition.  Objectives are going to be harder to reach, more plentiful, and there are more mission parameters.  Your troops will be very important in claiming objectives/table quarters, so will require as much time out of the line of fire as possible.  Just remember that you have to disembark to "claim" those objectives, as your troops don't count as scoring while embarked in a transport.

There is an argument regarding whether or not Rhinos are worth taking due to the changes in vehicle damage.  Some players believe that vehicles are easier to kill due to the Hull Point additions and the increased ability to strike them in CC.  I would agree, if you're talking on the scale of a single vehicle.  Its quite easy to focus and destroy a Rhino.  But if you have 6, plus other vehicles on the board?  I believe that the redundancy actually makes it harder for you to be de-meched.  It ultimately comes down to the fact that vehicles died just as fast in 5th Edition when my opponent wanted them to, so there is no difference to me now that there is a new edition.  A skilled opponent will destroy my vehicles no matter what, so there is no use worrying about the how it happens.  Stelek talks about this a bit in his article here.

But of course, its not all bad.  Its easier to grant cover saves to vehicles now, allowing simple infantry or small-scale terrain to provide 25% coverage.  Area terrain now grants cover to vehicles.  Transports can make an extra "flat-out" move in their shooting phase, but it prevents their occupants from shooting.  Sometimes that extra little push is needed.  And then there is the ability to fire heavy weapons from moving transports using the Snap Fire rules.  While you only have a 1/6 chance of succeeding, that is a significantly higher percent chance than what we got in 5th Edition.  This makes them perfect for transporting units such as MM Bunker squads around.  In addition, they can still tank-shock, though its harder to pull off due to the changes in Moral.  And let's not forget their usefulness in providing mobile cover for your forces or LOS blocking "terrain" for your units in key positions.

So in the end, are Rhino's useful?  Definitely.  Especially if you use them with shooty squads.  They are much less needed if you intend to outfit your squads in a CC-oriented manner.  In fact, I wouldn't advise giving them a Rhino-chassis transport at all.  However, because of the expensive nature of our troops (and our need to have many of them), smaller squads stand a much better chance at survival if they use our boxes.  While these vehicles provide very little in the way of firepower, they will be important going forward for the same reasons as they were in 5th Edition.

Razorback:

The Razorback has almost all of the of the pro's and con's that the Rhino has, with a few extra on top.  Previously, the main reason for selecting a Razorback was its ability to fire a heavy weapon.  This will still be the case, but its less needed for it's anti-tank duties because I believe that people (at least initially in knee-jerk fashion) will be taking fewer vehicles in their armies.  On top of that, I feel that torrent of fire is the way to go moving forward (or highly effective AT), so having a larger array of weaponry is going to be important.  Right now, all the BT Razorbacks can take is the standard TL-Heavy Bolter and the TL-Lascannon.  The first isn't very good period, but the latter doesn't fulfill the ToF that we're looking for.

In addition, your Razorback has no fire points so an embarked unit cannot fire.  Because your embarked unit won't likely be a CC-oriented squad due to the changes in transports, they'll either be a shooty unit or naked.  Having no fire points is a big problem for the former.  Combine that with a very expensive price tag, and you will be seeing fewer of these on the board.  Now, if we get updated in line with the rest of the SM Chapters?  Then my statement will need to be adjusted.

All is not lost for the Razorback though.  It is still one of the best sources of long-range weaponry in the Black Templar codex, even at the price of 90 points.  Shooting has only gotten better in the new edition, so these will still have a place in some armies.  With proper application of points, you have the ability to field more long-range weapons in your army than almost anyone else in the game.  In addition, you can still add a Power of the Machine Spirit upgrade to the vehicle, but with the new vehicle damage rules, I don't think that its wise to invest 120 points into an AV11 vehicle any longer.

Moral of the story:  Razorbacks are useful for gunline armies or units designed to camp home objectives.

Drop Pod:

Disregarding the fact that Games Workshop accidentally removed the ability to even take a Drop Pod, there have been some big changes to them.  The big one is regarding how they come down from reserves.  As predicted, we lost our ability to stay completely in reserves and with it, our ability to use board manipulation.  However, with the changes to the die roll needed to bring out units from reserves on turn 2 (6th: 3+; 5th: 4+), we don't get slammed by the piecemeal drops nearly as bad.  Thus, drop pod armies will still be a viable strategy going forward.  It, however, does have a flaw in 6th Edition that can't be dealt with without ally support:  Flyers.

One of the benefits of drop pods is the ability to deliver Alpha Strike forces into your opponent's army on turn one.  Against a skilled opponent, they will be ready for this, but much like the DDP of 5th Edition...it allows you to control the tempo of the game early on.  You give yourself the opportunity to cripple a portion of their army, but it will cost you that unit in reply.

Likewise, with the close combat nerf to transports, drop pods may see a rise in that respect.  They are a good way to deliver CC-oriented units to where they need to go, early on in the game.  Because they have to wait a turn to charge anyway (due to the new transport rules), all they have to do is survive the shooting phase and you're off to the races.  They are able to drop with relative accuracy, anywhere on the board.  This has obvious strategic and tactical advantage, especially when used in conjunction with your troops.  The ability to reliably land on objectives or in specific quarters is huge.  And it doesn't rely on your opponent's shooting, or lack thereof, to accomplish that goal.  The only real hindrance is Warp Quake.

On the other hand, drop pods come down immobilized.  Thus, in some tournament scenarios, that will cause you to lose Victory Points right off the top just by dropping.  They are still relatively easy to kill, being open-topped, and don't really provide much in the way of firepower.  Then we have the problem of mobility after the drop.  In a non-board manipulating army, you'll need to go to where the enemy is.  But if they are faster than you are (i.e. Necrons, Dark Eldar, Eldar, SM Bikers, etc), then you're going to have problems.  You won't be able to get to where you need to be in a timely manner and you'll just get picked off slowly.

Despite that, the drop pod is a very viable replacement for the Rhino.  Just remember that your army's redundancy is affected and you are forced to deploy 1/2 of your drop pods on the first turn.  Its best to ensure that you either have a CC-oriented unit embarked or one that can cause some serious Alpha Strike problems (i.e. Command squad) if you're bringing it down in the first wave.

20 Comments
theMarshal
8/5/2012 05:38:17 pm

hey Laeroth. so, regarding transports i was thinking;
5 x lasplas on Rhinos , repeat thrice, is about 465 points.
I was thinking of adding a couple static squads, to be in a fortification operating the quad gun. what do you think should be their setup? initialy i thought of lasplas, but maybe a single missile launcher would be better for this setup(i have multimeltas on more mobile platforms)? and, do you think these 5 troops are enough for 2k?

Reply
Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link
8/9/2012 10:38:56 am

It is important to note the type of list you're planning on running these with. Complete gunline? Hybrid? In general, however, I think our best Fortification campers are the Las/Plas units. You only need one guy to shoot the Quad Gun, so might as well make it a bolter dude. The Las/Plas can actually shoot at a different target than the Quad Gun, so its worth giving them decent wargear. In addition, its important to note that because the Quad Gun is an emplaced gun, your opponent can shoot and blow it up. That will make having effective weaponry on your Fortification squad even more important.

As for the Rhino units, I'm not so sure that Las/Plas is the best option for them unless in a full gunline list. Rhino's make me think advancing and maneuvering into position. Which means a MM will likely be in range, which is a far superior weapon. ;)

I think 5-6 troops will be an absolute necessity in 6th Edition. Period. No more 2-3 troop armies.

Reply
Algesan link
8/5/2012 07:04:05 pm

Well, you can't ignore the removal of Drop Pods until GW gets around to putting out a new FAQ, which is rumored not to be until September with the release of the starter kit so they don't "change game balance while people are learning 6th". Heh.

Actually, if you can put everything in Drop Pods, then everything can be put in Reserve. Maybe not so great, but it could be fun it you are going second since the "nothing on the board" tabling rule kicks in at the end of the *game turn*.

Also the mech list for 5th I finally got excited about was the one where I used the LS-Typhoon to Rhino balance since if you take one LST and one Rhino, the price is pretty much the same as any other Marine codex. Since the new HP rules hammer Speeders hard, that balance has been taken away.

Your points about transports are correct though, they move faster and still protect their passengers. That is actually the biggest hurt to the Drop Pod lists, between several things eating up points, too many things have to be cut to get enough squads in Pods to be able to control the tempo with anything more than a shadow of the old flexibility.

Yep, I'm a bit negative but after NOVA I'm going to be putting together my BT/IG Black Tide list and see how it goes. I actually think that sucker is going to kick arse fairly hard.

Reply
Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link
8/9/2012 10:46:25 am

Technically we can't field Drop Pods yet, but it was worth writing this as if we could. That way I don't have to go back and do a billion edits. ;)

I think that full Drop Pod armies can still be done, and I have a few more ideas on how to make that happen...but I'm still working out the kinks. It'll be very important to ensure that the Alpha strike does enough damage so that our weaker troops have a easier time cleaning up.

As for speeders, I agree. Even assuming the Typhoons get changed back to their good old selves, they are squishy now. They are still a good buy at 70 points if you need AT, but...you'll have to know that they will die. Quickly. Which makes the MM/HF Land Speeder more attractive again. Plus, vehicles cannot contest objectives anymore (unless in those special missions) so they lose one of their biggest roles in games (late game contesting).

I think we'll have a grand ole' time at Nova discussing possibilities. ;)

Reply
phatosen
8/6/2012 09:31:43 am

Relatively new to Templars, and really learning a lot from these analyses. Keep it up! :)

Reply
Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link
8/9/2012 10:48:58 am

Hehe. Thanks. Glad to see you're finding them useful! :D

I'm trying my best to keep churning them out at a reasonable pace, while still maintaining a steady painting cycle for Nova Open 2012!

Reply
loquacious
8/7/2012 12:52:05 am

Anxiously awaiting LRC analysis. Will tell me if I need to pick another variation of marines or not.

Reply
Algesan link
8/8/2012 04:09:39 am

Why? All varieties of loyalist Marines get the LRC. It is both stronger and weaker than before, like most armor. Partly it depends on what you want to do with the Land Raider. Deliver bodies into the enemy's face? Crusader. Big durable shooter? Phobos (standard LR).

I think it was Devjon who made the case quite a while back that the Phobos as a gunnery platform was superior in some ways to the Predator, mainly because it didn't have weak flank armor.

Me? I'm more worried about how GW ends up handling our vows and especially Righteous Zeal. The rumor that new codices are all going to give each army some unique abilities is hopeful, but that sounds like wishrumoring.

Reply
Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link
8/9/2012 10:53:26 am

I'm going, I'm going! lol! :D

Reply
MarshalPyriel
8/9/2012 10:08:54 am

it is interesting to note that 6th ed, up to now, makes us get more and more scoring units.3-4 units were enough in 5th, while i have started to believe 5-6(!!!) are needed in 6th. this will definitely affect both the tranposrts' playstyle and the weapon loadouts of units.

Reply
Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link
8/9/2012 10:52:56 am

I agree. The more I play, the more I see that having those 5-6 Troops is extremely important. Having maxed troops was good in 5th, but its almost essential in 6th. Fortunately, its not too difficult to accomplish. Honestly, I like having more troops because I feel like I can adapt better to the changing battlefield. And honestly, it fits the fluff a whole lot better (if you care about that). However, it does give armies like Black Tide some points problems...

Reply
Algesan link
8/9/2012 01:00:00 pm

Black Tide is a "Kill Them All" list. Defining "Kill Them All" as a list that constricts your opponent's options and destroys their scoring units so that even it if doesn't get to table them, you can still grab more objectives than your opponent.

Phoenix Darkus
8/11/2012 01:46:41 pm

Can you expand on your reasoning on having 5-6 troop choices?

I'm still playing with 2-3 troop choices and haven't run into any serious issues so far.

Love the site!

Reply
Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link
8/13/2012 10:38:24 am

Sure. Its important to note that pretty much all of my advice is tournament tuned, because that is what I play -- competitively. More often than not, that advise is going to be based off the Nova Open-styled missions...since quite a few tournaments take their lead from MVBrandt. Which is a good thing, in my opinion.

Basically my point is that competitive missions have multiple goals to accomplish (Kill Points, Table Quarters, Objectives). Not the single mission parameters that the rulebook often has, though its gotten significantly better with 6th Edition. If you're playing a BRB mission, you can get away with the 2-3 troops. In a tournament, unless you're playing a random Draigo-wing type list, having few troops is often a bad idea. Though, in 5th Edition, Darkwynn did well in tournament play (though it was comped) with only 2 troops.

With more scoring units, you have more tactical options when you're playing your games. You hold the initiative and can do multiple things at once. That gives you an edge and something you can hopefully turn to your advantage in a game. With only 2-3 scoring units, you become predictable and a good opponent will often figure out your game plan early on in the game. More often than not, you're not able to do more than one or two things reasonably well with your troops.

Having more troops also gives you "durability" via redundancy. If something goes wrong and your opponent ties up/destroys your 2-3 troops, then its game over pretty much. You don't have to worry as much about losing via no scoring units if you have 5-6 of them. This is especially important if you're using mechanized armies. And if you make use of allies, you can gain access to some really good allied troops.

Reply
ribster
8/13/2012 08:23:39 am

Why do we 'technically' not get drop pods at the moment? Also, when you say 5-6 troops choices, at what points level are you talking, 2000?

Reply
Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link
8/13/2012 10:08:56 am

Because the GW 6th Edition FAQ for BT removed and replaced the paragraph in the Drop Pod Assault special rules. Which also happened to be the paragraph that mentioned which units could select a drop pod as their transport. Because that paragraph no longer exists, and there is no other mention of who can take drop pods in the codex, there is no way to field them "technically".

And yes, when I say 5-6 troops...I am referring to 2000 points. Or rather, 1999 + 1 bonus point (no double FOC stupidity). When I'm talking about things, unless otherwise noted, its safe to assume I'm talking 2k. :)

Reply
Algesan link
8/13/2012 02:47:18 pm

There is a balance to be struck in numbers of troops. To get many troops you often must choose less durable units, but with the advantage Marshal Laeroth has noted of more flexibility and redundancy. OTOH, while many troops are nice, relatively fewer (4-5) troop choices of much greater durability have the advantage of requiring more killing and providing more firepower. Depending on your codex and style of play, a list my be built more as a "Kill them all" list that blasts multiple weaker troop lists away to deny your opponent scoring opportunities.

Even in on a tournament table it is possible to win by eliminating your opponent's scoring units. You can do this also with a troop heavy list because to merely win you only need one more objective or quarter than your opponent, even if it boils down to a 1-0 situation because he has no troops and you have one left.

It can be trickier to do, but one reason I've gone for a lighter troop level is because MVB chose to make a bad ruling about allied ICs attached to a squad but preventing that squad from riding in its own transport. As I've pointed out, he wrote two rules about Allied ICs when only one was needed. Until I saw that one coming, I was moving between lists that had six to nine troop units.

Unfortunately, I'm now stuck with four and no time to test any of the alternates I had been considering. It will probably cost me given the surprise rewriting of the Necron codex rules, especially if I have to face any lists with the now stupid-good Space Wolf Rune Priests. Heh, if Black Templars could take Rune Priests in an ally detachment, I'd have swapped back after the final NOVA FAQ was published a couple of days ago.

Reply
irishi
8/14/2012 05:51:08 am

i enjoy learning from all of u guys games/experience but it seems to me, that in your area or atleast this nova thing;the TO's are not flexible in any fashion and favor paticular armies, cause in my gaming area ive never had any of these issues.For EX: im still allowed to use drop pods and such. AND why cant you use rune priests algesan?

Reply
phatosen
8/14/2012 06:33:05 am

Because Rune Priests are sort of Space Wolf Librarians - and therefore are psychers. A "true" Black Templar will not ally with a psycher. :) In fact, our codex prohibits us from joining with any psycher (pp. 23), except from Grey Knights, but don't know if this an exact rule or is more fluff.

Algesan link
8/14/2012 10:11:52 am

Oh, if I wanted to use BT Drop Pods at NOVA, we probably could have brought it up and MVB would have probably FAQ'd it back in for the NOVA FAQ. I even built a list for it, going back to Dreadnoughts (which could suicide drop or let the pod drop empty) instead of Terminators and using some Guard. The guys at the LGS would just say "sure" and not worry about it.

phatosen is correct, we cannot ally or fight beside any psykers except for GK. I'll note that this rule is usually waived when fighting casual partner games, but unlike getting the "official" lost of Drop Pods tossed, the anti-psyker bias is part of what Templars are along with the Righteous Zeal.




Leave a Reply.

    Laeroth's Blog

    This blog is devoted to the Black Templars chapter and the tactics, list building, and general musing associated with them.  Readers will see occasional posts from Marshal Laeroth.

    Check out the Implausible Nature YouTube Channel!

    Follow me on Twitter!

    Like what you see and want to help support Implausible Nature?  Click the link below and donate!

    RSS Feed

    Archives

    December 2020
    August 2020
    July 2020
    May 2020
    March 2020
    February 2020
    January 2020
    December 2019
    November 2019
    October 2019
    September 2019
    August 2019
    July 2019
    June 2019
    May 2019
    April 2019
    January 2019
    December 2018
    October 2018
    September 2018
    August 2018
    April 2018
    March 2018
    February 2018
    January 2018
    December 2017
    November 2017
    October 2017
    August 2017
    July 2017
    June 2017
    May 2017
    March 2017
    January 2017
    December 2016
    November 2016
    July 2016
    June 2016
    March 2016
    November 2015
    July 2015
    June 2015
    May 2015
    April 2015
    March 2015
    February 2015
    January 2015
    September 2014
    May 2014
    December 2013
    October 2013
    September 2013
    August 2013
    June 2013
    May 2013
    February 2013
    January 2013
    December 2012
    October 2012
    September 2012
    August 2012
    July 2012
    June 2012
    May 2012
    April 2012
    March 2012
    February 2012
    January 2012
    December 2011
    November 2011
    October 2011
    September 2011
    August 2011
    July 2011
    June 2011
    May 2011
    April 2011
    March 2011
    February 2011
    January 2011
    December 2010
    November 2010
    October 2010
    September 2010
    August 2010
    July 2010
    June 2010
    May 2010
    April 2010
    March 2010
    February 2010
    January 2010
    December 2009
    November 2009
    October 2009
    September 2009