Defensive Drop Pods -- Post Nova Open 2011

10/15/2011

Hello everyone! This is just a quick update to show you some of the little tweaks I've been making to my Defensive Drop Pod list. More so prompted by my experiences at Nova Open 2011 (Game Four battle report will be up within a day), I've had to take a serious look at all my lists and decide whether they will be successful on Nova Open boards. Because there is a pretty good push for Drop Pod lists again, as well as numerous articles being written (such as Algesan's), I started exploring mine.

Well, let's just say that my list didn't come out the way it went in. But that isn't always a bad thing. We shall have to take a look see, now won't we? First, the original DDP v2.2 list that I was using before to great success.

HQ:
* Castellan w/ Power Weapon and Combi-Melta; 3 Command Squad Initiates w/ 2 Meltaguns & 1 Bolter; 1 Apothecary w/ Bolter and Narthecium; 1 Command Squad Sergeant w/ Bolter. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [240]
* Castellan w/ Power Weapon and Combi-Melta; 3 Command Squad Initiates w/ 2 Meltaguns & 1 Bolter; 1 Apothecary w/ Bolter and Narthecium; 1 Command Squad Sergeant w/ Bolter. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [240]
* Emperor's Champion w/ Black Sword, Bolt Pistol, Armor of Faith, Frag Grenades, and the Vow: "Accept Any Challenge, No Matter the Odds." [140]

Elites:
* Dreadnought w/ Assault Cannon, Heavy Flamer, and Extra Armor. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [150]
* Dreadnought w/ Assault Cannon, Heavy Flamer, and Extra Armor. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [150]
* Dreadnought w/ Assault Cannon, Heavy Flamer, and Extra Armor. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [150]

Troops:
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 4 Bolters & 1 Meltagun. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [120]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 4 Bolters & 1 Meltagun. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [120]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 4 Bolters & 1 Meltagun. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [120]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 4 Bolters & 1 Meltagun. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [120]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 4 Bolters & 1 Meltagun. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [120]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 4 Bolters & 1 Meltagun. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [120]

Fast Attack:
* Land Speeder Squadron: 1 Land Speeder w/ Heavy Bolter and Typhoon Missile Launchers. [70]
* Land Speeder Squadron: 1 Land Speeder w/ Heavy Bolter and Typhoon Missile Launchers. [70]
* Land Speeder Squadron: 1 Land Speeder w/ Heavy Bolter and Typhoon Missile Launchers. [70]

Total Points: [2000]

Pretty effective list. As noted in my "How To" article, this army relies heavily on its ability to manipulate the board with MSU. It is incredibly difficult to beat if you're playing an objective or table quarter game. Even Annihilation missions are not out of the question, but if there is a weakness in the list, that is it. However, that is the main reason I decided to tweak the list. Nova Open showed me that every unit needs to be effective in their role, even if they present very little overall "threat" to my opponent. I need to be able to kill things, especially vehicles, as that is the best source of Kill Points and furthers my board manipulation agenda.

Now, this isn't to say that my list didn't kill things before, because it most certainly did. But I can make it a little better without changing the core of the list. I also want to correct some inefficient things in the list, as they really didn't help the army out all that much. Lastly, I wanted to see if I could build in a little bit more "durability" via unit choices, weaponry, and/or my Vow.

The first thing I needed to do was address my dreadnoughts. In my previous version of the list, I had changed them to Assault Cannons from the previously established Multi-Meltas because I didn't think I needed them in my list. After playing some games, that normally was the case, but it forced me to put my Crusader squads into the line of fire so they could use their meltaguns. The Assault Cannon simply did not kill vehicles as well as I was hoping, although, they did do wonders against AV10 Open-Topped vehicles (i.e. Dark Eldar). They also excelled against infantry, but I digress. With a kill chance of only 14.4% against AV11, I needed more punch from my distraction units. The goal was to pin my opponent in their deployment zone and prevent them from advancing. Assault Cannons didn't do that for me. So I need that MM back. Plus, I'd still have reasonable anti-infantry available via my Heavy Flamers and charging.

But where was I going to get the points? Easy. I simply needed to change my vow to "Abhor the Witch." My list used "Accept Any Challenge" primarily as a deterrent against enemy charges, but it really didn't do a good job of that because of the lack of power weapons. Even on the Command Squad, the Castellan only killed 1 MEQ on average on the charge. Not exactly efficient. I'd much rather have the defensive nature of the "Abhor" helping to protect my units, especially with the huge numbers of offensive psykers out there nowadays.

The list remains fairly unchanged so far. But we're not done yet. Prompted by long email discussions with Devjon, I explored the option of putting heavy weapons in my Crusader Squads. We tossed around the various possible upgrades, with Heavy Bolters being the first on the list to add in due to their low cost. Ultimately, we discarded that idea because they didn't add much kill power to the list. We also explored Plasma Cannons and Lascannons, but also decided against those options because of their expensive nature. That left us with Missile Launchers and Multi-Meltas. Initially, both of us leaned on the Missile Launcher due to its decently dualistic nature. However, after playtesting, we found that the combo really left much to be desired. It wasn't terrible, but it wasn't particularly good at either role either. But what about the Multi-Meltas?

Now, previously, I have been a critic of the heavy weapons in drop pods. The fact that you could not fire the turn you dropped was a huge turn off. Plus, because you never knew when you'd be coming down, you may never even get to fire the weapon. That was a problem for me. Adversely, it allowed your squads to put some distance between them and the enemy, which helped increase their survivability. It also gave options to those squads who dropped particularly far away, likely on your home objectives, rather than just sitting there all game with nothing to do. The MM also gave me even more ability to kill vehicles, making sure that there would be absolutely no reason why I couldn't be able to take the majority of my opponent's stuff down.

However, even with the cons, I wasn't adverse to trying it for 10 points. The loss of the bolter in each squad really doesn't hurt me, so adding a heavy weapon should only be a boon, provided I could find the 60 points to buy them. As it turns out, finding the points wasn't too difficult. Because we had dropped AAC as our vow, we no longer needed the power weapon on the Castellan. Saves us 30 points. I also didn't need the combi-melta on those characters, it was just an insurance policy. With those simple changes, I had enough to arm all of my troops with MMs. Unfortunately, it left my Castellan naked.

Try as I might, I played around with points and upgrades for several hours trying to squeeze points from something to allow me to arm my Castellans with weaponry, but I was coming up dry. The Apothecaries were pretty much essential for the Command Squads, as it gives the squad FNP and helps them fulfill their role as a distraction unit. For 15 points, taking an Apothecary is a no-brainer. Nor could I drop the meltaguns in the unit. The dreadnoughts where how I liked them: MM and HF. Hypothetically, I could drop the Extra Armor on them, but then that would drastically reduce their effectiveness when receiving incoming fire (which they will). Not being able to charge when you want hurts. Nor could I drop the HF, as it was as one of the reliable AI options I have in the list. Then you have to add in the fact that I'm semi-OCD on certain things. One such thing is the fact that I don't like units with differing wargear and weaponry. For example, I can't have two Dreadnoughts with Extra Armor and one without. It would simply bug me to no end. There has to be symmetry in my units. Its much more aesthetically pleasing for me.

That left the Crusader squads. Devjon had opted to change his special weapons to plasmaguns so he'd have more range on his units. It also gave him better options against MEQ units, while still being reasonably effective against light armor. I, however, couldn't bring myself to make that change. If my reserve rolls were not favorable, I needed to be able to bring my Crusader Squads up close and be able to kill something the turn they dropped. The only way I could have a high chance of that occuring is if I left the meltaguns on the squads. This gives me the ability to make tactical choices. Not to mention, bringing vehicles into range of double-melta is a scary prospect. So the Castellan is going to just stay naked. Whatever weapon I would give to him wouldn't really add much to the battle anyway. The unit is designed for act as a durable distraction that is packing dual-melta. The Castellans are only really there to unlock the Command Squads and I really don't need bolters on those characters to make the CS's more effective in their role. For what I'd have to lose to find points, it'd be more of a detriment to the list than what I would gain.

HQ:
* Castellan w/ No weapons; 3 Command Squad Initiates w/ 2 Meltaguns & 1 Bolter; 1 Apothecary w/ Bolter and Narthecium; 1 Command Squad Sergeant w/ Bolter. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [210]
* Castellan w/ No weapons; 3 Command Squad Initiates w/ 2 Meltaguns & 1 Bolter; 1 Apothecary w/ Bolter and Narthecium; 1 Command Squad Sergeant w/ Bolter. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [210]
* Emperor's Champion w/ Black Sword, Bolt Pistol, Armor of Faith, Frag Grenades, and the Vow: "Abhor the Witch, Destroy the Witch." [110]

Elites:
* Dreadnought w/ Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer, and Extra Armor. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [160]
* Dreadnought w/ Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer, and Extra Armor. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [160]
* Dreadnought w/ Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer, and Extra Armor. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [160]

Troops:
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Multi-Melta, and 1 Meltagun. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [130]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Multi-Melta, and 1 Meltagun. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [130]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Multi-Melta, and 1 Meltagun. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [130]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Multi-Melta, and 1 Meltagun. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [130]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Multi-Melta, and 1 Meltagun. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [130]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Multi-Melta, and 1 Meltagun. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [130]

Fast Attack:
* Land Speeder Squadron: 1 Land Speeder w/ Heavy Bolter and Typhoon Missile Launchers. [70]
* Land Speeder Squadron: 1 Land Speeder w/ Heavy Bolter and Typhoon Missile Launchers. [70]
* Land Speeder Squadron: 1 Land Speeder w/ Heavy Bolter and Typhoon Missile Launchers. [70]

Total Points: [2000]

This army is sporting 9 Multi-Meltas, 10 Meltaguns, 6 Missile Launchers, 3 Heavy Bolters, and 3 Heavy Flamers. All the while, we're maintaining extreme MSU and the defensive nature of the list. Enjoy! :D

14 Comments

Devjon link

10/15/2011 02:15:51 pm

I don't remember talking about Plasma Cannons, but I would never consider them (being so expensive plus primarily being an anti-infantry weapon). One of the advantages of Heavy Weapons in the squad (except Heavy Bolters) is that their usefulness extends beyond being able to more reliably kill tanks, that low-AP applies to killing Infantry reliably as well.

I talked with Brother Loring via Email about the same time and he was against the idea of Heavy Weapons in the Crusader Squads. His reason was because it makes them less mobile. While that's true to a certain extent, you don't have to shoot the Multi-Meltas if it would be better to move instead. Plus the greater range of the Multi-Meltas (or other Heavy Weapons) means that you are potentially less vulnerable to assault units and you have less need of moving.

BroLo link

10/15/2011 09:33:59 pm

Aye, I'm now almost certainly against heavies in crusader squads unless they're run as proper bunkers. 5 man units aren't tough to wipe out and with no reserve manipulation wiping out the marines that are going to be bothersome won't be that tough.

I prefer the dreads in your new list. I think the speeders are a bit average. They're too easy to shoot down and I think only work in a heavily light mech list.

Algesan link

10/16/2011 11:00:35 am

Lose the OCD. ;)

I've been doodling with putting some heavy weapons in Crusader squads because out of the five I run, four have Neophytes and although the PF is fun, and upon occasion critical, those occasions are rare. It also doesn't hurt quite so much since I swapped at least three of the squads to bolters rather than BP/CCW. So I have two or three "sitter" squads that squat on an objective (or in cover) with the ability to plink at 24".

So, I was thinking about converting that two or three squads into one with a heavy weapon (I think two though). The downside for me would be that I'm then focusing those squads into certain roles and making them somewhat ineligible to play the suicide melta squad role. I could not do what I did yesterday and slam down four drop pods right alongside the Rhino rush shielding the Vindicator with sizzling melta and RF bolters while knowing several of those squads were going to die for their efforts.

For my Deep Strike list, I'm a bit leery of the heavy weapons, but I have this box of Devastators I haven't built... I'll fiddle and give it a try.

Interesting tidbit: If the Rhino chassis vehicle has popped smoke and you can still see a square mm of the arse end, go for the shot. Bolters will glance on a 6 and the cover save is the same from the smoke, so.... Getting a lucky shaken from a bolter on a Vindi is its own reward.

I would vary the squads up a bit. You still have to go with what you have when they drop, but say 1x Plasma Cannon, 2x ML, 2x MM, 1x BP/CCW/Neophyte(?) for the EC. No, the last isn't great, especially without AACNMTO, but it doesn't hurt to have a tarpit unit that covers for the EC and can smack tactical type squads around.

No, I haven't checked what the points would be on that combo.

RANT: WHY is there NO heavy flamer option in heavy weapons!?

10/16/2011 07:09:19 pm

@Algesan

Having Heavy Weapons doesn't make you unable to fulfill a suicide role, it gives you options on what you can do with that unit. Just like having a Meltagun and a Heavy Weapon in a Crusader Squad means you have the option of sitting where you are and firing your Heavy Weapon or moving and firing the Meltagun as circumstances dictate which is the better option. The Heavy Weapon comes into play once you've been down for a turn and makes you that much more dangerous. Multi-Meltas go well in Bolter squads because they have the same ranges, which means your unit takes the same roll but it's just better at shooting things.

Have you destroyed a Lascannon off of a Predator with a Drop Pod's Storm Bolter yet?

The main problem with taking different weapons is that you lose reliability. If all six have Multi-Meltas (or Lascannons or whatever) then you always know what you're Crusader Squads are capable of, and it doesn't change between squads. Once each squad has a different weapon, you lose that advantage along with a certain amount of redundancy. Basically you set yourself up to need one thing, and get anything but that.

Also adding a single Neophyte into a 5-man Crusader Squad doesn't exactly make them scary, nor does it make them capable of tar-pitting units. The Emperor's Champion is going to be there anyway, and the extra Neophyte still won't make a difference. Compare that to, say, a Multi-Melta and you lose a lot of versatility.

Don't worry, if Cruddace does our next codex we just might have Heavy Flamers. They will be 20 points each.

10/17/2011 03:09:25 am

I haven't done that to a Predator yet, but I've killed a Demon Prince with Drop Pod Storm Bolters. ;)

Taking different weapons doesn't mean losing reliability, it means making the units work in a plan. Let's say I have four squads with bolters & meltagun, but a different heavy weapon: Lascannon, Plasmacannon, Multimelta, Missile Launcher. It does not kill any reliability in the list, I simply have four different weapons that serve a similar purpose, to provide AT capability with low AP. Admittedly, the MM & LC are better vs high AV vehicles, but vs transports aren't that much better and both provide better AI firepower.

Strict redundancy is lost since if I need weapon X and one or more is all that is available then I'm shafted, but given their range and by being flexible you can make do with what is at hand.

The only problem I see comes from what you get from the points you spend. PF are marginal, but are useful. You can get three Neophytes for two PF and while they don't make the squad any more threatening, they do serve quite nicely as an ablative hit at a lower cost than using the PF or meltagun Initiate. In general, the Neophytes are more useful than the PF, but when you need a PF, you need it badly. OTOH, if I'm carrying around a PF for utility, why not a heavy weapon that increases firepower for a loss in CC capability? Similar reasoning (without costs involved) let me to swap out most of my Initiates from BP/CCW to Bolter.

Hmmm, I'm definitely going to have to explore the idea, because the PF are only useful in CC and while I have been known to indulge in it, with MSU it isn't the preferred choice, so maybe it will work out for heavy weapons.

10/17/2011 08:09:38 am

All of the wounds, or just finished it off?

If you have all the same Heavy Weapon, then you can have a plan and you can't get the wrong one for the job. You do lose the ability to make certain plans (Multi-Meltas don't make good long-ranged fire-support; Plasma Cannons aren't great anti-tank weapons) your tactics can adjust to what you have without real loss. Also, knowing for sure what you're going to get allows you to plan ahead. But you can't plan ahead quite as well if you don't know which Heavy Weapons you're going to get. It can be done (knowing that all of the Heavy Weapons have some ability to kill vehicles and placing them in general roles or making a separate plan for each unit so that you have a specific plan regardless of what comes down) but it isn't as easy or as accurate. That's what I meant by reliable, you always know what you're going to get.

For your list I would probably plan on Missile Launchers first, swaping them out as playtesting shows you what you need. They work against Infantry, Vehicles, don't cost a whole lot, and have the range to affect most of the board (so objective holders can use them quite well).

10/17/2011 04:17:13 pm

Finished it, it had one wound on it I think. Maybe two. It was really bad saves by my opponent after some lucky hit and wound rolls.

I've been running mixed Crusader squads with one or two more CC oriented (BP/CCW instead of Bolter and a Neophyte or two). I don't mind dealing with some mixing of my units. If I need to grab a side objective, I'd prefer to use a Bolter squad and if I need to charge something, I'd prefer to use a BP/CCW squad, but I've done both with both squads.

Granted, I'm not considering the plasmacannon seriously yet, but I don't want to take it off the table until I think about it some more. It is a bit more unreliable than a plasmagun for nailing transports, but it does give a small blast with 2+ to wound and no armor save.

First cut is to lose the Neophytes & PF, which gives me back 85 points. Then give four Crusader squads a MM or ML.

Turn the 5th one into the EC's toy with BP/CCW, a PF & three Neophytes. Maybe swap out the meltagun in two of the others for plasmaguns to give 5th squad grenades.

I'm getting set up to crank some numbers on some lists now and report back the metric values. I'm thinking I'm going to get higher numbers on my list, but we will see and there are intangibles.

10/19/2011 01:06:43 am

@Devjon - I'm having trouble posting on Blogger too for some reason.

Anyway, first run on the lists
Old DDP:DMS - 22.444
DMCC - 22.144
DRPG(S) - 48.75
DRPG(A) - 20.417

New DDP:DMS - 23.334
DMCC - 12.86!!! <=
DRPG(S) - 68.056!
DRPG(A) - 20.417

There is enough stuff that I'm not bothering with DLRPG, by the time you have a half dozen or so meltas, the list has plenty. I split the DRPG into (S)hooting and (A)ssault because I like it better that way and in this cass, simply add them together.

The old DDP looks adequate everywhere, especially in the critical DRPG, although it has to take CC into account to do so. Weakness is in the MEQ killing area if any. Note that I ignored Assault Cannon Rending and counted the Castellan combi-meltas as a single shot added to the rest of the command squad for DRPG(S) and as a bolter the rest of the time.

The new DDP is most robust in the DRPG area, makes a marginal gain in the DMS but crashes in the DMCC stat. AACNMTO makes a big difference along with no PW on the Castellans.

True, this is a finesse list, but let's check on some variations on the new DDP list:
First - pull the MM off the Crusaders.
DMS - 21.334
DRPG(S) - 49.722
Points available = 60
Second - pull the MM off the DNs
DMS - 23.889
DRPG(S) - 65.556
Points available = 30

IMO, both of these options would be acceptable variations and maybe even superior, especially the reverting of the Dreadnoughts to Assault Cannons since it keeps a higher DMS and only a marginally lower DRPG(S) even without considering Rending. So, take the 30 points, buy the Castellans some gear and try that.

@Marshal Laeroth - Am I detecting a tendency that since big time CC doesn't work to sacrifice it heavily for more dakka, perhaps over-sacrificing it?

By going with AtW over AACNMTO you gained the ability to kill 0.89 more MEQ in shooting each turn for the loss of the ability to kill 9.284 MEQ in CC. Not good I think.

10/19/2011 05:42:55 am

Opps, made an error on the DRPG(A) numbers, for the EC I forgot that he hits vs AV10 in CC, so instead of 1.667 DRPG(A), it should be 3.333, so they should be +1.666 higher.

Instead of running out of commentary space here, I'm going to get a post up over on my blog, but here are the figures:
Deep Strike List: DMS - 22.666
DMCC - 42.088
DRPG(S) - 53.056
DRPG(A) - 54.167

Castellan Deep Strike List: DMS - 23.131
DMCC - 41.OO5
DRPG(S) - 51.945
DRPG(A) - 57.5

Note: In both cases the THDC squads blow right past the 15 max DRPG(A) limit. 23 over in the first list, 35.917 over in the second list. Not directly there in metric calculations but shows the ability to multiassault Rhino body vehicles trivially with them.

Alexander Millar

10/19/2011 12:46:56 pm

I'm curious about the typhoons. I know they're a great shooting platform but I'm thinking of just taking the list above, dropping the typhoons and beefing up each of the units by a marine or 2 and giving the castellan some weapons, perhaps toss a power fist in there...

10/21/2011 04:31:44 pm

@Alexander
Given the current state of the codex, I wouldn't be caught anywhere without at least three Typhoon Speeders split into single squadrons. They are lethal, so much so that I include them in lists for Codex Marines and Space Wolves I've fiddled with. Even at 90 points, they are worth it.

What saves them is that even though they are nice and nasty, there is always something nicer, nastier and tougher on the board. For the DDP lists, the Dreadnoughts and Castellan squads, for my DS lists, the Terminators.

Going after my Speeders is a good tactic, but...everyone who has tried it has ended up with Terminators in their faces beating them to death.

Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link

10/23/2011 05:34:31 pm

Ahhh! So many numbers! lol! You guys are killing me. :D

I can't get rid of my mini-OCD. Its me! And I like it. :)

Alright, as for the rest of the comments, I'll kind of address them broadly and hopefully not hit the comment limit (I made a Weebly suggestion about that) while doing so.

The first thing is the Typhoons. I think Algesan pretty much hit my position best here. I considered adding MM/HF Land Speeders instead of the Typhoons, but decided against it due to the huge numbers of melta that I already had. Plus, even in a DP list, those MM/HF LSs are really sacrificial. The Typhoons really do have much more versatility. Sure, they might get shot down quicker, but that means they aren't targeting my more important stuff on the board. However, they are dangerous enough that if they aren't targeted, they will do some damage. So it makes it tough for my opponent. They certainly aren't a necessary part of the list, but rather a bonus. They are super cheap. I don't care if they die, but if they don't, I'm going to use them to hurt my opponent. I couldn't think of a better use of 210 points to be completely honest. Perhaps I've just had better success with mine? Dunno. I've heard both horror and success stories.

As for the heavy weapon issue, I really want to stick to pure redundancy on them. As Devjon noted, having 6 of one kind ensures that I can always rely on having that weapon available, no matter which Crusader squad comes in. The downfall is, however, that the Multi-Melta is far from a long ranged weapon. Still, it allows me to hold mid-field with greater efficiency than before. Previously, my Crusader squads either dropped into my opponent's face and blasted them with melta, or they just sat around and did nothing (and being ignored). Now my opponent actually has to worry about shooting them dead or I'll hurt them. But I can still drop them in their face effectively too. That makes every unit dangerous, not just my main ball buster units.

As for the dramatic loss in DMCC, if you do the numbers on the dreadnought, he doesn't actually lose much to the loss of AAC. Its the difference between killing 1.875 MEQ vs 1.25 MEQ on the charge. But lets be serious here: Are we expecting our Dreadnought blow over units in CC? Is that Dreadnought really going to win a combat THAT much quicker with another 0.625 dead a turn? Personally, I prefer that the Dreadnought stay in combat longer. I dropped him where I wanted him to be (near an objective usually), so likewise, he charged a unit so tie it up. Being in combat means that he's still contesting, preventing that unit from doing anything else, and/or not getting shot to death on my opponent's turn. You also have to remember that this is the day and a life of MSU, so 2-3 CC phases is more than enough time for me to kill a 5-man unit successfully and move on. It'd be the same amount of time for AAC too.

10/23/2011 05:40:36 pm

The Castellan-led Command squad is different. The Castellan loses nearly all of his CC abilities with the loss of AAC, but that really is okay for me to be honest. I used this unit more as a contester anyway. I wanted to blow something up with my melta, then camp on an objective or in front of the enemy. Its an unit that screams come and get me if you dare. FNP helps ensure that they stick around, but they aren't meant to win combat. By the time my opponent wins that battle, I've already set them up elsewhere around the board.

It was something I realized when playing my games. I certainly killed more dudes with AAC and the PWs, but I didn't kill the UNITS. My list isn't designed to kill stuff, though it can. It uses its weapons to manipulate the board and my opponent into making mistakes, forcing them into a corner, and presenting them with decisions that are lose-lose. Obviously, against lists that work similar (Daemons, Nipplewing, Loganwing, BT Drop Pods, etc), being able to kill stuff is important. But as your numbers prove, I have more than enough of that to go around. Its in MSU format, so my opponent will have fun trying to kill everything I have while I'm systematically dismantling their list. You also have to remember that almost all of my DMCC comes from those CS and Dreadnoughts. If I'm shooting my bolters (highly likely), the CS isn't charging anyway. Nor are the crusader squads.

So while you are correct Algesan that I'm sacrificing CC to gain marginal MEQ killing power, what I am actually doing is shoring up my ability to pin my opponent where I want them in the board. Being mobile hurts my game plan, as it takes some of the initiative from me. I need to be able to kill transports and lots of them. Beyond that, I don't think I need much else kill power in order to win. Kill Point battles are slightly different, but I improved the list enough to allow me to be able to kill more MEQ if needed. The Assault Cannon came off because I simply couldn't rely on it to kill vehicles when I needed it to, but I will admit, I will miss its AI abilities.

Just remember, if things don't work out as planned, I can always go back to the tried and true list. I just don't mind experimenting with stuff to test if they work, to see if I can get better efficiency out of my lists. I'm terrible about that. lol!

10/24/2011 01:50:15 am

I'd much prefer to blow everything off the table with my list, because I know the weaknesses of CC for us in 5th, but I've always wanted to maintain the ability to shift someone's arse in CC. I don't have to win the fight, but I want them to know they've been nudged.

Of course, a big chunk of "my game" is deception...except when it isn't and everything comes down your throat to kill and be killed. ;)

Defensive Drop Pods -- Post Nova Open 2011

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