Devastator Centurians

9/14/2013

I'd like to hear your experiences with them. With any armaments that you may have used. What was your opponent playing (codex/allies and basic list build)? How did you use them? What worked? What didn't? What would you do differently, if anything?

Thanks in advance. :)

40 Comments

Elotar

9/14/2013 06:05:43 am

I've looked at their stats, find no invul save and forget about them.

Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link

9/14/2013 06:22:44 am

Narrow thinking, in my opinion. There are plenty of other ways to keep them alive. Not to mention, they are not scared of the typical AP1/2 weaponry as they are T5 and won't be ID'd by them.

mrpessimistic

9/14/2013 06:26:02 am

At 280 points for 3 models I want an invulnerable save, period. One IG Plasma Vet squad is fully capable of killing 1-2 of them.

And the moment they get caught in CC they're S5 Tactical Marines for all the good it'll do fighting back, which puts your massive investment down the drain faster than you can say 'damn maybe that wasn't such a great idea'.

Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link

9/14/2013 06:47:39 am

@ mrpessimistic

Ideally, I'd like one too. I think they should have one, but they don't. Nevertheless, their firepower is extremely efficient and so blatantly powerful that its stupid to not at least consider them in some types of lists, even without the invulnerable save. Cover works wonders against most of the dangerous threats they would face. Against opponents like Tau? No unit is safe from their focused firepower, invulnerable save or not. You just weather the storm.

Being in close combat, is in fact, a negative. I 100% agree. But it is a negative that every shooting-oriented unit faces. The difference is, as many have kindly pointed out elsewhere, 6th Edition favors shooting. It will be an exceptional and lucky unit/player that manages to get close enough to you without you noticing. Then for you to chose to ignore that threat by not using your excessively powerful weaponry to kill that unit in one turn (or at the very least, cause significant damage), as to let them charge you? If that happens, IN is not going to be a resource that helps that player until they can learn basic tactical skills in order to drastically reduce that problem. Don't get me wrong, you're not going to stop everything, especially when overloaded with CC units, but the firepower potential of this unit makes going near it a suicidal prospect (unless you're a Flying MC or some such). You should see the potential for this to happen before the game even starts by simply looking at your opponent's list and deploying appropriately. It is far, far, far easier and more efficient to deal with Dev Centurians by shooting them.

When I saw the price tag of these guys, I was no longer as "for them" as I was previously. Hence this topic. Having lots of people's detailed game experiences with the unit is far more valuable than having my own solo-experience. It removes the "vacuum" factor from making drastic analytical decisions so soon.

Algesan

9/14/2013 09:28:05 am

Are they on 40mm or 60mm bases? I'd think 40, but... Either way, you should be able to proxy them. Heh, if I could use AoBR Terms when I fielded my first Deep Strike Lists with a splotch of yellow on the base = Cyclone ML and splotch of orange on the base = Chainfist, then it is all good. Yes, I literally had the color coding typed on my lists for my opponents to see.

chadsteam

9/14/2013 12:51:04 pm

I do not have the models yet, but BoLS reported that they are on a new 50mm base. I really want to try them, but I am holding out to see what the meta game shows. Dropping that much money into something I won't use later is tough to do.

Marshall Laeroth makes a great point regarding the Inv Save. There's cover (great post on BoLS about how to effectively use tanks as LOS blocking or cover once they've been blown). They exert area control on the board. They become a target priority to free up other units. And then there's always Grimaldus Servitors for those that just have to have the physical presence of an Inv Save.

Anyway, the point is, there is more to spending 290 points on a unit than simply how much can it kill vs how long can it survive if everything shoots and charges it.

Algesan

9/14/2013 05:23:14 pm

There are 50mm bases around, I've got a few from Wargames Factory, but it would be easy enough to cut some out of foam board and/or simply sub in a 60mm base for a proxy. Next question would be size of this "Space Marine inside a Space Marine". I'm guessing smaller than a Dreadnought (although Dreadnoughts are way under scale, should be ~50% bigger and hanging off the edges of a 60mm base). You could cut out a rough foam board shape of the right size and width to make do.

AdroitSquirrel link

9/14/2013 10:12:14 am

I just got home from an event at my local store and I was pleased with how they ran. The only battle they curled up and died in was against Chaos Space Marines. Some warp shenanigans and a ton of AP2 attacks in close combat put an end to them real fast, but before that they put the hurt on.

Cover is key, like we all assumed it would be. They were targeted with St10 weapons once, but I was able to quickly deal with the vehicle quickly with my assault oriented troops and only lost one model. I didn't get to see how their grav cannon would fair against vehicles because every vehicle I faced stayed far, far away and let me dictate how they moved around the board. The high point for them was when a squad of Blood Angel jump troops came up on one of my objectives and my Centurions' support fire shredded the squad before they could threaten the squad holding the objective.

I ran them as a mixed bunch. The sergeant had an omniscope and grav-cannon, while the other two had lascannons. Omniscope was awesome the one time I used it and it freed me up to put the grav-cannon to work while the others handled other problems. All three were equipped with missile launchers in case I faced mass infantry lists (which I didn't this time). At 290, they were one of the most expensive units in my army, but they either earned their points back, or had enough of an influence on my opponent's movement and strategy that they earned a consistent, if not semi-permanent spot in my lists. I like running very aggressive, assault oriented lists, and the Centurions filled the heavy weapons platform role I wanted for them.

elotar

9/14/2013 04:49:48 pm

or 290 you can get two squads of devastators - one with LC, one with ML which will got you more firepower and more surviability.

Grav weapons looks fun against 2+, but main such target is riptide, which is faster and got 72' AP2 gun.

Plain version (bolters) is interesting, but I think wirlwinds is better antiinfantry solution.

Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link

9/21/2013 04:05:07 am

While I don't disagree with you that devastators are pretty good...they eat up necessary Heavy Support slots for things like Thunderfire Cannons. Which, in my opinion (after playtesting), are more necessary than both the Dev Centurians and normal Devastators. **Definitely** should have at least two in a list. But if you do that, then you're leaving only one slot for anything else. One normal devastator squad with ML/Las is pretty lame.

Algesan

9/14/2013 05:29:58 pm

Hmmm, they should just die like Terminators do. Which might be a way to look at the points. Two wound models with 2+ save...in Terminators that would be 240 points base, plus weapons. So, if the firepower worth 50 more points and the slightly more fragile unit? Because, there is still S10 out there...

greggles

9/14/2013 11:07:12 pm

Most battle reports I've seen with them involve keeping the standard hurricane bolters, and taking all grav cannons. The grav amp lets you reroll your wound/vehicle hits (so the chance you get a 6 with rerolls is pretty high, plus there is a raging debate over two grav 6's = 3 hull points off
(1 hull point + immobilize result, 2nd 1 hull point, then immobilize result, if already immobilized, additional hull point).

The reason no one takes the missile launchers is the hurricane bolters are a massive deterrent to assaults. Just realized they aren't allowed to overwatch...hmm some people have been playing with overwatch!

Plus we can get missiles and lascannons all over our codex.

Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link

9/21/2013 03:35:18 am

Aye, due to points constraints, I took the ML's off my Centurians and they did just fine with the hurricane bolters. I will say I missed the first turn firepower, but...it wasn't so needed that I'd immediately try to find those 30 points again in my list. Besides, 260 points is plenty enough of a points liability as it is. :P

People played the ML's with overwatch? Why? Doesn't matter if they are relentless... >.>

AdroitSquirrel

9/15/2013 12:52:17 am

@Elotar I'm not sure about how much more survivability you're going to see from Devastator Squads. There is a lot of AP3 flying around these days and they're 1 wound models. What the Centurions give us is a wide range of options and can be used to fill a variety of roles in building lists. I think we can think bigger than trying to just answer the Riptide question. Targeting a squad of regular marines with grav-cannons and grav-amps is a death sentence for that squad just as much as targeting 2+ armor models. Ultimately, I think the Centurions are good at being tailored for what you need them to be. I wanted something to provide mobile fire support for my Crusader Squads and the Centurions filled this role perfectly.

@Algesan I agree with your mentality with one slight difference. Strength 10 weapons are certainly out there, but is their survivability too much different than any AP2 weapon targeting Terminators? You may see more Strength 10 than I do in most games, and perhaps with the advent of Centurions these weapons will see an increase on the table. But this seems like a fair amount of balance. The Centurions have a clear weakness and this makes for a more interesting game for my opponent to exploit and for me to defend against. So far in my limited experience with the unit, the Centurions have more than made up for the 50 points in weapons.

@Greggles When I ran them in an event yesterday I debated and debated about spending the points on the missile launchers. What ultimately made up my mind was the lack of overwatch. I didn't want any enemy models close enough for double tap range and so I opted for the missile launchers. They may not shred as well as the hurricane bolters, but I think there's something to be said about dropping templates on a squad of boys or guants from a distance.

I'm not 100% sold on the Centurions just yet (prior gushing excluded :) ) but yesterday's games went a long way to showing how much of a threat they are. Keep in mind that I'm heavily influenced by local meta so your mileage may vary.

elotar

9/15/2013 07:37:47 pm

Where you find lot AP3? Most popular armies now are tau (AP2 riptide), eldar (s7 ignores cover), demons (ap2 monstrous crits), necrons (grav-cannons vs wrath :|). CSM was like 7% of the field at nova.
Terminators not only costs cheaper, they got 5++, fists and deep strike and still are quite bad.
Anything can kill regular marines, no point of using something special for it.

Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link

9/21/2013 03:48:13 am

I think it is a mistake to consider Centurians in a vacuum against those armies. As I said someplace (I forget where), the Centurians are not complementary units. They are the unit you build synergy around. If you want to make them useful, then you need to field units that minimize the effectiveness of the those other units you're referencing.

Ignore-cover is NOT so prevalent yet that it cannot be marginalized. It is often focused on a couple units. In the Tau's case, Pathfinders. Which happen to be really, really easy to kill. There are ways around the Ignore-cover special rule.

Zyth23

9/15/2013 03:55:12 am

I'll buy some of them and try to use them as Fire Support using Twin HB and Huriccan Bolters.
Last time I used an Hurrican Bolter system with my SpaceMarines, it was on a DreadNought IronClad and in two turns I killed 75% of 2 Khorne's Bazerkers squade with my Dreadnought and 2 HB from 2 tactical squad. (I had some BT with few Astartes marines to have my IronClad)

And for my 2 last battle, where I used many heavy weapon (like Plasma-Cannon, Lazer-Cannon, Missile-Launcher), the weapons that made highest kill counts where my marines Bolters. (was against 3k pts of Grey Knight, and all my oponnent's 2+ save failed against my bolters)
But it was with our old codex.

I still don't have my 6th codex, he's coming soon, but I always liked having huge amount of Bolters to provide high amount of shoot with rapid-fire at half range.

Trignama

9/15/2013 10:25:55 pm

I know this is supposed to be about the dev. Centurions, but has anyone paid any attention at all to the assault version of them?! They are really good for just the 3 at their base cost, with base weapons, and can switch to hurricane bolters as their chest weapons for free (so have 2 with bolters, sgt with grenades maybe?).

Not to mention their Flamers can be turned into meltas for only +5 pints a model.....

I really think they are much more points effecient than the shooty version, however they do need a transport in order to really do their business. So that is more than likely going to offset it.

Zyth23

9/17/2013 09:28:36 am

I still didn't read alot on the Assault version, but having no Invulnerable Save won't help for Assault attacks.
But their "Endurance" of 5 can be good (Don't know if it's the right word for english version, I mean what is the Centurion "Defence" state against Strength when taking damages)

Anyway as the Centurions really looks to be a Mix of IronClad and Terminator, their could be tank destroyers likes rhinos.

But I think the shooty version would suite better to our Templars, remember that the Hurrican Bolters was born with Black Templars, Land Raider Crusader. (And it is mentionned in the new codex too)
It's because it can bring bolter heavy fire rain without having our Crusader carrying bolters instead of having Close Combat stuff.

Maybe with this new Codex we will be able to bring 3 Land Raider Crusader in battle again like in 4th.

Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link

9/21/2013 03:53:15 am

Your last line said it all. The need for a transport really is what turns me off on them. That gives us a real points crunch for a unit I can replicate nearly as well with TH/SS terminators.

And the fact that they don't have invulnerable saves in close combat is sad face too. Monstrous Creatures/Dreadnoughts insta-gibbing my dudes makes me rage. :(

Zyth23

9/21/2013 05:52:03 am

I read logner the rules of Assault Centurions, and I will definitly use a squad of 3 with Siege Dril (STR9 AP2 that attacks at Initiative Rank 4, not at 1 like ThunderHammer) with Hurrican Bolters and FlameThrowers inside of a LRR against my next oponent (Okrs)
# 3 Centurions in Charge = 4+4+5(sergeant) attacks of STR9 AP2 at rank 4, and they can shoot with Flame-Throwers and count as they not fired. (with Omniscope it's possible to have one Centurion firing on another target too, which can be realy fun with Flame-Throwers)

The only problem with that is: as they don't have Invulnerable save, it force them to be inside of a land raider, and this mean minimum 240pts for a Redemeer.
Which equals a total of 190+10+240 just for them, but they replace what terminator (and maybe a dreadnought) would do in CC.

For the Devastators Centurion I've read in the last White-Dwarf that using 3 Devastators with Missile Launchers and Graviton cannon is really good.
But if your oponnent don't have many good Armor Save (like orks) they could be less usefull, especifically the Grav-Cannon, but they still can take down Vehicules easily.

montressor

9/17/2013 04:49:59 pm

If I were to use assault or devastator centurions i would put them in a stormraven with a locator beacon. The threat of being charged by assault centurions (and their rending sarge) from about 40in (4in seems to be my conservative average charge roll) is pretty scary. deploying the firepower of dev cents anywhere in that range could drastically change an opponents plans too. I'd like to proxy this to test the SR as a delivery method before shelling out 80 bucks for the models.

TheArcticTemplar

9/18/2013 09:01:18 am

Something that I've just tried doing is outflanking a 3-man Dev Squad with Grav Cannons by attaching a Raven Guard Librarian to the unit(he grants them Scout). Outflanking nearly guarantees that they aren't destroyed before they get in range, and it's unavoidable during Hammer and Anvil deployment. Just my two cents.

Zyth23

9/18/2013 07:17:50 pm

You can't use Librarian with Black Templars. Or they will kil the Librarian before attacking your enemy.

Algesan

9/19/2013 04:58:58 am

Not with the new Really Deep Dark Blue That Looks Black Templars in Codex Smurf. Ally away with the witch, the group formerly known as Black Templars now just have Librarius Envy. The loss of the Chaplain Corps was a result of having so many Brothers in treatment over the shock of this news.

@AdroitSquirrel - in response to you way up there: I'm just seeing a potential point source failure, but as long as there aren't any S10 deny cover attacks, it should be good. Of course, you could ally with someone who has a HQ that can buy that AE invul save in a radius...

TheArcticTemplar

9/19/2013 12:13:08 pm

You don't have to use the Librarian to give them Scout; any Raven Guard IC that doesn't have Bulky or Very Bulky would suffice. I just grabbed the cheapest HQ available and used it.

Zyth23

9/19/2013 07:24:00 pm

The rules about the Librarian restriction stay the same as before, the only Psykers we can play with are the Grey Knight, Any other LiPsykers would be the firtst target of our Templars. (Due to Horus nearly killed the Emperor with his psykic powers)

Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link

9/21/2013 04:01:02 am

Thematically, and in the past, that was correct. Now, with the new rules and the expansion on the fluff in that department, we can ally with psykers with no restrictions of any kind. We just can't take librarians ourselves.

Zyth23

9/21/2013 09:25:31 am

You're right Laeroth, and it seem that in our new Fluff, we don't hate psyker anymore. Only the Renegats Psykers. (Which isn't fun, was better before, I could attack an ally Psyker before my Opponnents troups)
(new codex page 52 *for french edition, maybe not same page for english version*)

Algesan

9/22/2013 09:05:34 am

Okay, I was trolling for Dust Tactics opponents yesterday at the FLGS and after one game ended up helping out a couple of 40K noobs playing one of their first games. Assault Centurions can be devastating, the level of firepower is insane coming out of a Land Raider. However, this was a 1250 game IIRC, so any Land Raider is devastating at that points level. OTOH, if the game had continued, I don't think the situation would have changed, which was the guy without the LR/Ass Cents ending up winning.
1. Cent guy had no flyer or air defense, opponent had a pair of Typhoon Stormtalons. They were setup for next turn sweep of his Cents if they didn't crawl back into the LR real quick.
2. The guy without the Cents had plenty of troops, so he was grabbing objectives on one side and would have ended up forcing the LR and/or Cents to run the gauntlet of his Stern(Van?)guard squad in a Rhino, hiding behind a hill, full of melta & plasma (most of it combi-weapon), which would have put paid to the LR.
3. In the meantime, the guy without Cents was working on removing enemy troop choices.

Another comment from conversation...why are people so scared of Deep Striking Assault Terminators? Yeah, they cost more now and losing a squad can kill your chance of winning, but do you know how hard it is to actually lose something Deep Striking, even close?

Seriously, all you need seven (7) inches and you are good, with a 70%+ chance of impact within that circle. For Drop Pods, it is even better. For heavy safety, I stay at least a hair over six (6) inches away from the board edge and it is all good. Yeah, but that is only 60% of no mishap...until you realize that it is just a few degrees of scatter that will take you off the board. By the time the scatter angle reaches 45 degrees from straight off the edge, you now have to roll a nine (9) to mishap.

Zyth23

9/22/2013 11:40:24 am

Because Deep Striking with our Black Templars was dangerous before, no teleportation balise available and all units was highly expensive before.

For my next game against massive Ork army, I will have IG ally (2vs1, 1k5+1k5 vs 3k points) and I'm thinking of using 5 Ass Centurions with Grimaldus inside of a LRC, but I need my Ass Centurions to pop behind the Orks lines. (LF Blood Angels Deep striking LandRaiders xD)

Is it allowed to place Centurion inside of a Storm Raven?

Algesan

10/4/2013 05:32:03 am

My point on the Deep Striking was a balance. At first I did "safe" DS only...and ended up losing games when my guys (esp Assault Terms) scattered entirely the wrong way and never got into the fight. I also lost games not being able to bring my Assault Terms into action against highly mobile opponents who scooted around and mostly ignored them.

Note, that I did not mind the times they ended up soaking up a ton of firepower before dying, that was actually a major purpose of the squad. No, they didn't "get their points back" technically, but eating a couple of turns of dakka allowed my THDC squads & LST squadrons to chew up my opponents while the Pods fell. Think about that one, a 215 point throw away unit, that I considered getting into CC a bonus...heh, because when they did my brothers, when they did...

I also lost a few games from failing an early RZ test and having my big studly Terminator squads run off the board squealing like little girls because someone killed Kenny.

So, I decided to start DS close to my opponents, preferably inside their perimeter and simply run for cover the first turn. It worked, surprisingly well, so I did the math and the odds worked out. Sure, I might die (and lose the game) unless I play it safe, but I find that better than losing while watching my safely DS unit crawling through terrain and running badly for turn after turn to never end up in the fight.

chadsteam

9/23/2013 02:34:06 am

Yeah, I did a similar thing yesterday. We're coming up on a 1k pt partner tourney and my strategy, because the pairing will be completely random is to take an army that can stand alone at 1k. He had 2 IG platoons with a Commissar bunkered in behind his Aegis line. I went ahead and took the chance of deep striking my 5 Termie squad with 1 Assault Cannon into about a 6-in circle behind his Aegis and nailed it(33%chance). They took out half his army while only losing 1 Termie per turn (terrible save rolling on my part) for the rest of the game.

Personally, I prefer the Teleport Homer on my bike HQ, but it's tough to fit that in at 1k.

Zyth23

9/23/2013 03:28:25 am

The Termi Saves are just.....
Las time I could saw that went when I had 3 full squad of Necron Soldiers at rapid fire half range.
3x20x2 shoots, to kill only 2 terminators... (with like 40% of shoots with 6 as result)

And I will definitly deep strike Only with massive Teleportations Beacons (maybe wrong name, the thing that allow to teleport without going into walls)

Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link

9/23/2013 11:28:44 am

To be fair, I think that 1250 points is way way too low for Centurians. They are too expensive for what you get at that level. Especially with a Land Raider. I am not surprised the guy without them looked to be winning, as he had a much more balanced army. :D

AdroitSquirrel

9/23/2013 02:30:21 am

@Algesan My biggest concern is the point sink. I'd prefer to give them a cover save, but placing Grimaldus and company on baby sitting duty seems like an adding too much emphasis on an expensive unit in the first place.

As Marshal Laeroth wrote elsewhere (I just got back to the blog today so it's all blending together in my head), The Centurions are great if in the right list (Sorry Laeroth I know I'm paraphrasing ;) ). I like them simply because they fit the sort of lists I enjoy running. I don't tend to worry too much about St 10 weapons as I already have out targeting them. What I think the Centurions do well, is highlight this codex. While we all want our particular chapter to rule the roost, I like that there are fewer insta-include units, and many of the units are priced in such a way that forces tough list building decisions. It really shows just how mixed a bag we have when we are still debating the merits or problems with Centurions almost three weeks after the release.

@Zyth23 Just double checked, and no the Centurions cannot go in a Storm Raven. Probably for the best without an invuln. I'm always scared of Storm Ravens being shot down. :)

Zyth23

9/23/2013 03:36:54 am

=/ I wanted to bring my Centurions behind enemy line.
Imagine 5 Assault Centurion, with Grimaldus to give them his special Rule, behind Orks line, all my cent witl Twin-Linked Flame-Throwers and Hurricane Bolters with the Omniscope on the Sergeant for Multi Squad Targetting.

and Terminators don't have enought Shoot+CC stuff on the same Squad, except Dark Angels.

Anyway if my opponent choose to shot down a Storm Raven, above 3k of Orks, I think this can definitly worth the cost of the Storm Raven and the Centurions in it xD.

Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link

9/23/2013 11:21:38 am

The more and more I play with them, the more I am convinced that shoving Centurians into a list willy-nilly is a big mistake. You need to support and build your army around them. With that being said, two squads are too many for anything less than 2k points. One squad max. You just cannot properly build a balanced army when 500+ points of your army are devoted to Centurians.

Zyth23

9/23/2013 10:54:20 pm

Do you include a LandRaider in the 500points for Centurions? (for Assault Centurions)

Spaguatyrine link

9/24/2013 01:49:56 pm

The lascannon, missile versions are the best option in my opinion. If you are going to run three units which I have playtested against for Feast of Blades run 2 las/mis and 1 grav/hur and they work wonders. They are hard to kill even for my tough maximized tournament list. Taking them with a buff commander and a riptide would be a killer combination!!!

Devastator Centurians

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