Email: 1500 point BT list & melta in Fast Attack

Email:

Hey Laeroth! Firstly, I wanted to say that Implausible Nature is a wonderful resource that has taught me almost everything I know about competitive gaming and Black Templar. So, I've been on the fence about my BT for awhile, but I think the reward for being hipster and playing the oldest dex is worth making them my main army.Well, and the fact that I get a warm feeling in my chest when I think about how much of a bad ass chapter they are! So, I'm trying to figure out a 1500 point list to work with. You write a lot of 2k, but I understand that you can't always just scale down lists (not to mention most of your 2k have relied on allies, and you can't really use 'em at 1,500). So I just kinda winged it using my knowledge of 6th, BT, and your teachings.

HQ
122- Reclusiarch, PF, Auspex
140- EC, AAC

ELITES
255- Duel Asscannon termies
255- Duel Asscannon termies

TROOPS
424- 8 Inits, PF, meltagun, LRC, Dozerblade, Lights
152- 5 Init Las/Plas, Rhino, Lights
152- 5 Init Las/Plas, Rhino, Lights

1500 points on the dot

I think it's a decent army that is a nice core with several elements I would be able to use in other list types when I expand. Allow me to explain why I took what I took. Reclusiarch with only PF to save points. Both he and EC go in LRC with the Inits. Auspex because I had 2 points left over, and it will be nice to have a BS5 meltagun. AAC, I'm not 100% on. If I dropped it for Abhor, I could get a SS on the Reclusiarch and maybe another Init. However, the extra attacks on AAC will be golden for helping my Inits and termies punch stuff. Duel Ass termies I took because.... Well.... Haven't used em yet, but cyclones in 5th were awesome, and these look even better in 6th. Shooty termies are looking like the Crisis suits of BT; everyone takes 'em. Two Las/Plas squads for cheap backfield scoring. Rhinos there to help with durability (I don't trust 5-mans to live the whole game without a transport). Init squad in LRC and HQ's are supposed to go up to my opponents backfield, chop a troop off of an objective, and sit there glaring at anything not too hardcore that comes close. Hardcore ones will be shot and assaulted by termies. Name any troop in the games besides termies, and if I get the charge on them they will die. I took the dozerblade because I always seem to roll a 1 when taking a DT. Searchlights on my vehicles because of night fighting being so common now. Another list I was thinking of doing would be drop the LRC squad, get another cheap troop (either do 2 MM bunkers and 1 las/plas or 3 las/plas) and invest in a couple of vindicators. With glancing hits having no chance of removing weapons, AV13 being fairly durable (especially against all the str 7 we'll be seeing in 6th) and if i invest in storm bolters weapon destroyed being random, these bad boys just might avoid one-shot-gun-syndrome. Not to mention. partials are full strength on vehicles and ap 2 is +1 on the table. Str 10 roll 2d6 pick the highest and +1 damage? Yes please! not sure If I should do Marshal or Chaplain if I do this, though. Regardless, HQ's would prob go in termie squads and I would definitely take Abhor.

Another thing. I was talking 40k strategy with one of my friends last night, and we started talking about how pwnge it would be to have an assault squad with meltabombs in 6th, now that they are AP 1 and it is MUCH easier to hit vehicles in CC. Not to mention, I believe you can use them on MC's now?. It got me wondering what our best source of melta in our fast attack would be. Here are the three contenders that I came up with.

* 5-man assault squad with meltabombs (125 points)
* 2 attack bikes with MM (130)
* MM/HF speeder (75 points. We'll just say 150 for two, that puts it closer to the other two options)

BTW, I just wanted to say that the reason I'm only looking at melta stuff and not out typhoon speeder is that missile launchers aren't really as amazing anymore. Glances don't damage, so you can't suppress. Sure, you can still remove hull points, but they don't really have the volume of fire to do that. Add in the fact that melta gets +2 on the table and missile launchers get squat, they aren't good at destroying, either. You need a natural 6 to destroy on the table now, too. Whereas melta needs a 4+. They're the jack of all trades, but to a flaw now.

So, I will list the pros and cons as I see per unit and explain why I think each is good and bad.

Assault squad- gets the most melta hits by far, are the cheapest out of the three (assuming 2 speeders) and they even have a chance to auto hit! At worst, they will be hitting on a 3+ with everyone else. However, they are quite fragile. Not only will each wound remove a melta chop, they are only toughness four. Only 2-3 will probably make it turn two to assault if you are lucky, and I can all but guarantee they won't live to see the end of the game. However, they do have a small footprint and you can easily use LOS to artificially extend their lives. Also, they have the smallest threat range (assuming average charge range), averaging out at 19" while the speeder and bikes have a constant 24" threat range. Plus, this is random. So, while you COULD get a 24" range with everyone else, you could just as easily get stuck with only 14". So, assault marines have the most damage potential of the 3.

Attack bikes- With the change to Instant death, these guys now shrug off lascannon and missile launcher wounds (and get their jink, too!). They could also EASILY hide in a LOS blocker like the assault squad, and they nor the assault squads have to really worry about DT now that they get their armour. They are tied with speeders in the amount of melta shots, but they are reasonably likely to get both shots. Comparing them to the assault squad, I think it'll be like for every 3 assault marines dead, 1 bike will die. So the assault marines really wouldn't get to have that many more melta hits assuming they came under some fire. They are also of similar durability with speeders against small arms fire (basically the speeders have +1 "toughness" and a 5+, but the bikes get a 3+, so it probably balances out). They are also similar durability against lascannons. Lascannons need a 1 to "wound" speeders and speeders have 2 "wounds". Lascannons need a 2 to wound bikers, and bikers get 2 wounds. Also ,bikers don't have a chance to explode, get immobilized or lose a weapon,  unlike the speeder. So, bikers are the most durable of the 3.

Speeders- While less durable than the Attack bikes (and assault marines against lascannon shots), and with a larger footprint than the two, the Speeders have all the melta damage potential of the bikes and one extra advantage: duality. The heavy flamers allow them to flame some light troops squatting on an objective and do some serious damage. Be it a Carnifex, Land Raider, or Ork Boyz, the Speeder will be able to do some damage. 

That's my analysis of stuff you probably already knew. But on the off chance you lost your fast attack page in your codex or something, hopefully this will lay out the fast attack/melta options and my opinions on them. I'm personally leaning towards the bikes for the reliability of range and durability. but what do I know? :P Anyways, what do you think is the best option of the three? Or do you also disagree with me on the typhoons? I'd love to hear what you say on my list and our fast attack slots. Thanks in advance! Oh, and regarding my list. Feel free to scrap the whole thing. I'm not really worried about what's in it or anything, I just tried to write a decent 1500 point list.


Reply:

Hola!  First off, thanks for taking the time to email and put all your thoughts down!  Its a pretty heft email, but that is the way I prefer them.  Articulating your thoughts makes it much easier for me to understand where you're going with your army lists, tactics, etc.  Let's get to it!

You started off with the list and I have some thoughts on it.  At its core, I think your analysis is pretty good.  You're working with 1500 points, so filling out your troops slot isn't necessarily needed.  I think that 3 should be sufficient for your needs.  You do have transports for all three, which is good, as mobility is just as important in 6th Edition as it was in 5th.  You have plenty of AI in the list, but I am a little bit concerned at how much AT you have.  The only long range weaponry you have are the Lascannons.  The others require you to be within 24", which could become a problem in some games.  In addition, you only have the occasionally effective AC's against Flyers.  While I don't think you'll be seeing massed Flyer-wing at 1500 points, having only the two dual-AC units might not be enough.  Time will tell.  :)

There are a few things I would change, however.  First is the Auspex.  It doesn't give BS5, that is the Signum -- which the Techmarine carries.  Thus, the Auspex is nearly useless to you.  Second, I really think you need 2+ armor on your Chaplain.  You opted for the Reclusiarch, which is fine, but protect him you really need that bump in armor.  But how to pay for the Artificer Armor?  Besides dropping the Auspex, you should drop the meltagun from the large Crusader squad.  They are in the LRC anyway, so they won't be shooting any vehicles.  And when they get out, they likely want to charge infantry, so shooting at a vehicle could mess up a charge.

Next, change the power fist on the large Crusader squad to a power axe.  On the charge (with Litanies), the power fist will kill 1.875 MEQ and the power axe will kill exactly 2 MEQ.  Defensively, the power fist kills 0.417 MEQ and the power axe kills 0.667 MEQ.  Clearly, the power axe is superior.  There aren't enough attacks to make a power fist worthwhile, but that is why you have the Chaplain.  Save the 5 points.  Finally, change one initiate in that large squad to a neophyte (if possible).  The neophyte is exactly as effective as an initiate is in close combat, but you save 6 points.  I wouldn't go more than that, however, as to not shrink your pool of 3+ saves too much.  Use the remaining points to buy smoke launchers for your LRC and switch it to the Heavy Support slot, rather than a dedicated transport.  Your list will look something like this:

HQ
140- Reclusiarch, PF, Artificer Armor
140- EC, AAC

ELITES
255- Duel Asscannon termies
255- Duel Asscannon termies

TROOPS
132- 7 Inits, Power Axe; 1 Neophyte
152- 5 Init Las/Plas, Rhino, Lights
152- 5 Init Las/Plas, Rhino, Lights

HEAVY SUPPORT
274- LRC, Smoke Launchers, Dozerblade, Lights

[1500 points on the dot]

Its using your exact core, but making some minor tweaks.  Let's move on to the next portion of your email:  the fast attack slot.  I think your thoughts on Typhoons are spot on, which is why I haven't put them in my lists.  Missile Launchers definitely got whacked by the nerf bat and the only reason our CML terminators are decent is because of Tank Hunters.  Add in the fact that Land Speeders only have 2 hull points and you'll be afraid of anything Str5 or better.  So this leaves a blank spot in our Fast Attack slot.  You brought up some of the AT combinations.  Let's take a look at them.

* 5-man Assault Marines Squad w/ Melta Bombs -- You bring up one of their biggest flaws, durability.  This squad will not survive through the end of the game.  When you're looking at 2, maybe 3, guys getting a charge off on a single vehicle...you have to determine if it was worth the cost.  Is that one squad worth killing a sole vehicle?  I would say no in most cases.  That doesn't mean that their usefulness is non-existent, as you're right, they do have the highest damage potential.  If your opponent leaves them alone, they do have the capability of killing quite a few vehicles, especially if grouped up together.  But I just don't think that'll happen.  That isn't even counting their decreased mobility in comparison to the other two, which is something you mentioned in your email.  Great against vehicles and average against infantry.

* 2x Attack Bikes w/ Multi-Meltas -- These guys actually are worth taking now that they have as close to immunity to Instant Death as you can get.  The only problem that I have is that they are still relatively expensive at 65 points a pop.  Nevertheless, as you mentioned, they are much more durable now so they can take a hit or two before losing out on a bike.  Their speed is their boon, able to get around the board at pretty much a moment's notice.  They are easy to hide, as you stated, so they can play the "Peek-a-boo!" game.  Their extended range on the MM's is also a bonus, as it gives you a larger footprint than the shorter range meltaguns/meltabombs.  Being charged is a very, very bad thing so you have to use range to your advantage.  Great against vehicles, but only marginally effective against infantry.

* 2x Land Speeders w/ Multi-Meltas and Heavy Flamers -- As with the Typhoons, Land Speeders got a lot less "durable" in 6th Edition.  Cover is easier to get, but its not as good.  But that is okay, as you get cover simply by moving.  Duality is important for this setup (or any, for that matter), so they can fit into nearly any army list.  However, because 1x MM isn't totally reliable, 2x is the way to go on this front.  That get's expensive, especially if you're replicating it across three FA slots.  If you do this, Deep Striking will be the go to tactic and gives you the ability to knock out important enemy units.  Of the three, these are the most versatile.  But it comes at a price, as they are the easiest to neutralize.  Great against vehicles and infantry.

So in the end, it really depends on the list you want to run.  If you are bringing lots of vehicles, then perhaps the Land Speeders or Attack Bikes are best.  Running more hybrid or footbased, then the Assault squad might be the best route to go.  Honestly though, I'm more inclined to go with the Land Speeders due to their duality...but the Attack Bikes are a close second.  I just can't validate the cost of those Assault Marines for the threat range they have.  Just remember that we also have other options for this slot, like triple-plasma/melta bikers.  But having options is a good thing.  ;)