Email: Thought you might be able to help -- BT 1000 point list

1/7/2012

As was noted a couple posts ago, I was going to start posting up emails to start getting collective assistance from the BT community. At least from those willing to help out. Hopefully this will help ease my load of emails and give those emailing me a broader opinion. With that being said, keep all of your comments respectful and on topic.

Email:

Hey Laeroth, I've been drifting around with some small point Black Templar lists recently, and figured you were the best source to come to for advice. I'm hoping to make it competitive, while still able to build off of as I get more models and a larger army. My list is as follows:

Emperor's Champion (140)
AACNMTO

Crusader Squad 1 (200)
6 initiates: 1 meltagun, 1 PF/BP, the rest CCW/BP
2 neophytes: CCW/BP
Rhino: extra armor, smoke launchers, searchlight

Crusader Squad 2 (200)
6 initiates: 1 meltagun, 1 PF/BP, the rest CCW/BP
2 neophytes: CCW/BP
Rhino: extra armor, smoke launchers, searchlight

Land Speeder Typhoon x3 (210)

Predator Destructor x2 (250)
Autocannon, lascannon sponsons

Total: 1000

I feel this give a good balance between shooting and CC punch, and yes this is your list you made in the "Assembling Your Crusade" portion of your BT 101 guide. I'm just wondering how effective this list still is?

Thanks

Reply:

Hello! My answer would depend on the style of list you're looking to build. If you're picking that list, then my guess is that you're looking for something more CC-oriented. To be honest with you, if you're looking for something competitive at 1k points, that list has some failings.

The largest of those is the lack of troops. Well, not so much the lack of troops, but the absence of a troops squad that stays back in your deployment zone to guard objectives. In the current configuration, it wants to charge forward and do some damage. Anti-tank is definitely not an issue for this list, but large numbers of infantry might be. As such, I'm going to make some suggestions for changing that particular list for your needs.

*** Note, however, that these changes are going to be for a stand-alone 1k point list. Assuming that you're going to want to build up your forces and scale the army up, this might not be the route you're going for. If that is the case, the above list is just fine. ***

First, you're going to need more troops. That means you're going to have to lose a few things in the list. Fortunately, I think we're a little top heavy on the AT in the list so some of it can be sacrificed. The Predators are gone and one of the Typhoons. We're going to replace the Predators in a moment, but for now, I think the best objective camper we can put in the list at this points level is the Las/Plas unit for 101 points. They will do a decent job of replacing the lost long range firepower, but also allow you to compete in objective games.

To replace our lost Predators, I would highly recommend adding in a dual-CML Terminator squad with Tank-Hunters. These guys pack quite a bit more anti-infantry, as well as being much more durable against incoming firepower. Not to mention, they pack a helluva AT punch. Use these guys to protect your fragile footbased Crusader squad. To fit the points, you'll also have to make some other slight changes to the list. The end result will look something like this.

HQ:
* Emperor's Champion w/ Black Sword, Bolt Pistol, Armor of Faith, and the Vow: "Accept Any Challenge, No Matter the Odds." [140]

Elites:
* Sword Brethren Terminators: 5 Terminators w/ 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers, 5 Storm Bolters, 5 Power Fists, and Tank-Hunters. [265]

Troops:
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons, 1 Meltagun, 1 Bolt Pistol and Power Weapon; 1 Neophtye w/ 1 Bolt Pistol and Close Combat Weapon. Mounted in a Rhino w/ Smoke Launchers and Searchlights. [164]
* Crusader Squad: 6 Initiates w/ 4 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons, 1 Meltagun, 1 Bolt Pistol and Power Weapon; 2 Neophtyes w/ 2 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons. Mounted in a Rhino w/ Smoke Launchers and Searchlights. [190]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Lascannon. [101]

Fast Attack:
* Land Speeder Squadron: 1 Land Speeder w/ 1 Heavy Bolter and 1 Typhoon Missile Launcher. [70]
* Land Speeder Squadron: 1 Land Speeder w/ 1 Heavy Bolter and 1 Typhoon Missile Launcher. [70]

Total Points: [1000]

Anyway, if that isn't the way you want to go...there is quite a few different ways to play around at 1k points. Most of the time, so long as you include the essential firepower, you're good to go. To be honest with you, I've started to move away from the use of Predators lately and relying more on our amazing CML Terminators to get things done. In all aspects of the game, they are simply superior and give you much more tactical flexibility. On occasion, I've found the humble Predator to be a liability depending on the game. So its a safer bet on my part to just remove them from the equation from the start and pick up a better unit to replicate their AT duties.

Thoughts everyone?

13 Comments

Nikephoros link

1/8/2012 04:00:11 am

My thoughts are that 1000 is way too little to use AAC. Remember, it costs 50 points so on a per model basis, it makes your units severely overcosted.

At 1000, I would run a foot list with 4 or 5 units of 5 man missile/plas crusaders and some tank hunting terminators. You should have superior firepower to almost anybody and you won't waste your scant points on overpriced Rhinos.

Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link

1/8/2012 02:03:27 pm

While I would normally agree with you, I tend to tailor lists based on what I believe the emailer wants their style to be. Because I have quite a few different ways to go about 1k points here on Implausible Nature and they picked the CC one, that is what I assume is the guidelines for giving assistance. Unless I'm told otherwise, then the list advice changes dramatically. :D

At 1k points, I believe gunline is extremely effective for the BT...as we are quite simply the only MEQ codex that can put out as many guns at such small points levels. Even if its on foot, as mobility isn't quite as important at this level as it is 1500 points or above. Not to mention, with all those guns, you can easily kill your opponent's mobility yourself. :D

The only real problem opponents for the BT gunline at this level is Daemons and Nids. Tervigons at this level are just ridiculous and can easily overwhelm our forces by themselves.

Algesan link

1/8/2012 05:38:08 am

I'd use AACNMTO with EC
1x THDC Term squad w/ Chainfist
2x 5/0 Las/Plas squads,
1x 5/1, melta, PF, Frags in Rhino with XA/Searchlight
3x LS-Typhoon

But you can have fun with this list, get Las/Plas with Razorbacks, put a big squad in a LRC with Las/Plas support, but those go with AtW and a Reclusiarch with BP & Frags. LS-Typhoons to round out points. Yes, the LRC is a potential point failure in this list, but if you can focus on any melta and shoot it down, a lot of lists will have trouble dealing with AV14. Reclusiarch + EC give the first shot PW hits and Reclusiarch gives first turn reroll CC misses.

15 guys (7x Initiates, 6x Neos, two HQs, melta, PF) with rerolls to hit make for a great "torrent of chainswords". However, I would NOT use a LRC in any progressive match where you cannot dump it later.

Or you can put drop Crusader squads in Pods with THDC Terminators and LS-Typhoons for fire support.

1/8/2012 02:10:56 pm

I will admit, the lure to include a Blessed Hull LRC is pretty strong at this points level. As you said, very few things will be able to handle it. The problem is...what could you put inside of it that makes the points investment worth it? The LRC by itself will kill stuff, but not enough to justify its cost. There simply isn't enough on the board. :O

The fact of the matter is smaller points games can be fun because they constrict your normal armies dramatically. You're essentially building "rock" armies, even if they LOOK balanced. You'll always have holes. :D

1/9/2012 03:54:01 pm

I actually like how my DS list worked out at 1k;
EC-AACNMTO
1x THDC Terminator Squad
3x Crusader Squads with melta in Drop Pods (1 has 2x Neophytes)
3x LS-Typhoons

Lucion

1/10/2012 02:20:45 am

On list tailoring

"I tend to tailor lists based on what I believe the emailer wants their style to be." Marshal Laeroth

But what does the reader like ? How can we help tailor things to them as an individual? Are you sure he isnt just reading the bt 101 guide?

Alot of us reply with what we would use. But is it what he would use? The BT community has variety.

Does he like drop pods(alegsan) - CML terminators and shootyness (Laeroth and Nike) - Land raiders and TH SS terminators (darkwynn) black tide (devjon). YTTH wrote a decent BT foot list a while ago around assault terminators and cenobytes with reclusiarchs. But has any of it been tested - if it hasnt been tested - how can you call it competitive? Competitive thinking is not enough.

I think we need a revisement of these Archetypes, and also ways that they mgiht scale.

An example : Black Templar Land raider archetype (Darkwynns list)

A byte sized version might be

-LRC 265
-5 TH SS 200
-EC uphold 100

-typhoon 70
-typhoon 70
-typhoon 70

-crusaders, 80
-crusaders, 80

955

+leaves 65 points for either heavy weapons, another

terminator, tank hunters, blessed hull.

I dont agree that 400 points is an under-investment on troops when people have won 2k tournaments with only 266 points invested in troops. Thats dependent on a BT archetype land raider list - which removes others transports as a requirement for costs.

What makes a succesful BT gunline anyway because although the theory sounds good - the truth is in eating the pudding - and the
pudding has not been eaten yet.

1/12/2012 10:50:44 am

While you are correct in stating that you cannot know the true competitiveness of a list until you test it (you can deduce effectiveness via experience though), you can be "competitive" without doing so. Its simply a term used to describe how a player views their list building.

With that being said: MEQ codices do not scale very well below 1k points. They are simply too elite and are not able to bring enough "toys" to the battle. Xenos/Chaos are because they are generally cheaper and/or more durable for the same points. Because of this, we need different things in our list and simply scaling a 2k points list down isn't the most effective way for doing it. We can extrapolate what an opponent (in general) will have in their list based on how many points there are. That is how you build as balanced a list you can.

"What makes a succesful BT gunline anyway because although the theory sounds good - the truth is in eating the pudding - and the pudding has not been eaten yet."

Not sure what you're referencing here. A very large sum of BT players have had great success with their gunline forces. You can find this testimony all over the place among the online forums (B&C, DakkaDakka, YTTH, etc) and I have dozens of emails saying the same. It is one of the big reasons there are large "divides" in list building philosophies for the BT players. However, as far as I know, I'm the only one that has taken the archetype to a large-scale Grand Tournament. Didn't do as well as I hoped, but there were specific reasons for that and even then, all of my losses (except one) were extremely close.

Adversely, most the BT lists you see going into the GT's are close combat-oriented (with Darkwynn being an exception). I've done research and I've received a great many of these lists from TO's around the United States. These lists are winning 50% of their games or less. This is fact. There simply isn't anyone going to GT's with gunlines (very few BT players period), so there hasn't been an opportunity for anyone to win yet. The wins will come, no worries.

What makes them successful is simply having the "core" units available in the list. CML Terminators and Typhoons being the mainstays. You can get more guns in a variety of other places. What's important to note, however, is that "gunline" isn't a STATIC gunline like in 4th Edition. Mobility is almost as important as having the guns. :)

Esperanto

1/10/2012 12:52:49 pm

Hey everyone, as the emailer of the original list and request for advice on it, I thank you all for your input. I'm not sure on what my style really is, I just know I want some assault oriented aspect in the list, whether that be through assault terminators or crusader squads. I also know I like land speeder typhoons for their versatility and anti-infantry capabilities (many players at my gaming store play orks and tyranids), as well as their mobility. I hope to scale up to 1500 and 2000 point games eventually, but for now (and probably the next few months) I'll be around 1000-1500 points. I'm trying to stay away from a true gunline as well.

1/11/2012 12:23:43 am

Greetings. I'll just note that you don't forget the assault ability of plain Terminators. Yes, they hit second and have weaknesses, but all those powerfists (I always pay for one chainfist) blast through most things you find on the field, especially with AACNMTO.

IMO, I don't count on Crusader squads for CC. Yes, I've had some CC success with them, but almost always defensively (since we get a 75% hit rate with AAC rather than 50%, we give out more casualties than expected). The times I've used them offensively with success (as opposed to tarpitting with them) involve either a 5 vs 1 to finish off a unit I've just shot up OR using them as cover for the EC who usually gets first swing and can take down 3 MEQs by himself in the charge...

1/11/2012 12:54:12 am

Crusader squads are not competitive enough for assault compared to their counter parts - grey knights, space wolves, blood angels.
Theres alot of emphasis put on initiates in rhinos or razor backs with powerfists and melta guns.

But drop pods have only ever been used as a transport that has won Templars a tournament with 5 initiates, 2 neophytes, fist/melta. (Goes with land raiders and speeders)

Typhoons are the only way to get in the missiles at a cost effective price.
Assault terminators are viable. Thunder hammer assault terminators is the way, and they are also great models.

If you take them, you will need a land raider crusader.
They can also work in a drop pod but it limits their assault capability.

For an overview of a couple of styles you can look here:
(remember to click magnifying glass)

Gunline template: shooting the guy to death
https://picasaweb.google.com/101960122148225691956/Desktop02#5696382390975050898

Assault template: putting pressure and hitting hard
https://picasaweb.google.com/101960122148225691956/Desktop02#5696382401386595074

If the gunline can get into a good position it can usually outshoot the other guy. But if you have two large buildings in the way and have to cram everything together it leaves it open to assault.

1/12/2012 11:00:03 am

"If the gunline can get into a good position it can usually outshoot the other guy. But if you have two large buildings in the way and have to cram everything together it leaves it open to assault."

That is a crucial piece of the puzzle. Terrain. If a board is moderately covered in terrain (25% coverage advised by the rule book), then a gunline force will be effective. However, if you have more than that on your board and a lot of it effectively blocks line of sight, the board will heavily favor assault armies. Also of note is whether or not Night Fighting will be in effect. :)

1/11/2012 01:04:35 am

The BT terminators with dual CML launchers is versatile but will need AAC vow on the Champion.

Best to first take measurements of those Orks and Tyranids to derive their quantity, from this you can make calculations and thus comparisons. Its then a matter of ensuring your comparative numbers assure victory.

Following from that here is insight into the underlying circumstances of competitive match ups and what numbers make a good list.

http://nike40k.blogspot.com/2011/06/40k-theory-its-all-about-numbers.html

1/20/2012 03:20:48 pm

Hey again, I was able to try out Laeroth's original list he suggested for me (the one in the direct response to my email) today in 2 games, both against a Tyranid player.

The first was kill points, and we ended up tying 6-6. I was surprised how much firepower the list had, even with 2 close combat oriented units. The CML Terminators really packed a punch, much more than I had originally expected. Even with the lack of the 4 lascannons and 2 autocannons via the Predators, and without 1 of the Land Speeders, the Terminators more than made up for it in their versatility, staying ability, and mobility.

In the second game we had 5 objectives, so right from the start the addition of another scoring unit, especially one that could hang back and stay safe for a while, was a major boom. Also, the attention attracted by the close combat elements, as well as the now feared Terminators, allowed the Land Speeders to remain relatively untouched. Because of this I was able to hold one, and and contest the other 4 with the Terminators, a Rhino, the Land Speeders, and the larger of the two close combat Crusader squads, pulling out a 1-0 win.

Email: Thought you might be able to help -- BT 1000 point list

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