Yea things have been almost surreal. Do you think things seem crazier than normal?
I am glad to see you back online. Ill look forwards to developments. Looks like Black templars are in the pipe.
I reckon this new book will be amazing. Until then, one will have to do the best they can with a very old codex. In the next year we'll see 6th edition and a new BT codex!For now.. back to the old codex and some discussion. I've got some crazy ideas, may not work, but its fun doing so.
Few things to bring up
- I think pods can be viable transports, their cheaper than SM, and better. On IN I have just seen only pods being used in mass.
-I think the trouble with the casual list is the land raider. I dont see any competitive lists taking them, its a pity.
A few personal words on land raider.
Its troubling that a rhino can give pretty much similar survivability once its been penetrated to a land raider. The point difference of 50 points to 265 points is a large one, 205 points. Is the land raider really worth that much more?
One thing that has been on my mind is the land raider size, it can act as a shield for other vehicles.
This had led me to the thought -
I am wondering how the land raider would be if used with vindicators.
I think the trade off between vindicators and land raiders is nice, it forces the opponent to make split fire.
One problem with this is if you get second turn and you have no cover - coming on reserve with vindicators is a death wish - I think.
Anyway. Without the siege rams you can fit two vindicators behind the land raider and they are hidden. Here is some pictures. Fits in 12 inches.
However it is somewhat deadly, the land raider obscures the vindicators, then when the vindicators want to they can move/shoot 36 inches, which should hit anything in the second turn.
In addition the vindicators can get 4+ cover save while shooting behind the land raider.
The point is, the land raider here acts more as a Shield and transport rather than an assault tank. So its 265 points is going into something else. Its huge points and size gives other benefits
Ill follow up with a couple of lists, and see if we can get anywhere.
Haha. The rumor mill has started to flow a little bit so we might be seeing some updates on our new codex soon enough. However, for the time being, there is nothing concrete on the board, other than they are working on it and Phil Kelly is writing the book (which is a damn good thing imo). So we'll keep the discussion regarding that to a minimum for now. ;)
I want to start with the Drop Pod point first, since they are getting some attention once again in various places where BT players frequent. Which is understandable, because the BT DP rules are superior to the 5th Edition version. They did take a step back, however, with the nerf to Deathwing Launchers but that was more of a bonus anyway. There are a couple of reasons why I don't use them in non-full Drop Pod armies.
My first reason is that they do not provide saturation to the list. What do I mean by that? Lets say that you have your traditional support units: Land Speeders, Predators, and perhaps some Dreadnoughts. Then you have your troops units. If you were to spend points on drop pods for your dreadnoughts and troops, you would leave your Land Speeders and Predators exposed to enemy shooting on the first turn (unless you reserved, but then your shooting is affected). You give far fewer targets to your opponent, allowing your opponent to neutralize them at their leisure. Then when your pods come onto the board, which could end up being piece-meal, they suffer from Deep Strike. So that means you cannot move, shoot heavy weapons, or even charge. You get to run or shoot assault weapons. While its true you can use the DP as LOS blocking "terrain", that impedes your next turn's moves (unless you simply dropped on an objective). In the end, you're stuck getting shot up because your opponent already killed your fire support earlier in the game.
In addition, something I already hinted at, you do not know when your DP support will arrive. If the rest of your forces need that DP to come and it doesn't, you're SOL. Whereas full drop pod armies don't need to worry about that threat, because all of your forces are coming on from reserve so have a high likelihood of getting at least partially what you need. Many a tactical opportunities have been missed by a delayed unit from reserve.
Lastly, DP's do not provide you with any additional mobility once they've come down. Against opponents whom can quickly redeploy (Eldar, Dark Eldar, Blood Angels, etc), this is a very bad thing. Or if you scatter too far, you might find yourself well out of the way of the action, when those support/troops units are a needed part of your army.
To summarize, not having sufficient saturation at the start of the battle allows your opponent to make easy targeting decisions and can make short work of anything you deploy. You are essentially playing with less points, while your opponent has a full army. Also, you do not know when your forces will arrive. This limits the tactical planning you can reliably count on and gives your opponent more time to deal with the units already on the table. Finally, the Drop Pods do not give you any more mobility once they've landed. Effectively creating a footslogging force for your army. The way to counteract this negative is to have so many drop pods that you can be everywhere on the board at need. Which is impossible with a hybrid DP list.
Alright, the second point you brought up concerning the Land Raider and Vindicators. There is a few concerns I have with that and I'll talk about what they are. The theory behind the idea is not bad, but actually putting it into practice is more difficult than it seems.
The initial thing that I wanted to bring up was that when you're facing a "rock" type army such as this one, your opponent can and will hurt you in the deployment phase to be sure. If you have the first turn, what do you do? Where do you deploy? Unless you're playing Spearhead, you're likely deploying in the middle of the board to account for possible refused flanks. The problem with that is your opponent will likely deploy in the corners to force you to split your forces. Then they've got you. Because if you stick together, you won't have enough time to kill off the other corner while they are blasting away at your Vindicator's exposed sides. If you DO split, then your forces are much more easily dealt with by the two halves of your opponent's army.
But what about if you deploy second? Most likely, they'll deploy in the corners anyway as to limit the damage you can cause early game. They certainly shouldn't deploy all together so you can just drive forward, with your front armor blocked, and blast huge holes in their forces. At least, experienced players won't.
Second, hiding behind the Land Raider slows the Vindicators down significantly. Which is bad when they suffer from "One Gun Syndrome". There is no way that your opponent doesn't have at least one side shot on your Vindicators. While PotMS/EA will allow it to stay functioning with a Shaken/Stunned result, the other four damage results hurt you badly. You need to get the Vindicators to your opponent's lines ASAP. Then you have to worry about movement blocking on the Land Raider, which blocks your Vindicators behind. Its best to just present the AV13 and drive as fast as you can forward and get your one shot off. Any more than that is a bonus. Using the Land Raider to block one of the Vindicator sides is an option though, but you still suffer from my first comment.
Third, what happens if your opponent is mechanized and has nothing on foot? Assuming you are playing 1500 points, this combo is 1/2 of your total army. And you still have to fit the EC and troops in. Leaving you with very little to pop open transports so your Demolisher Cannons/Terminators can go to work. The lack of AT is a serious problem. While both the Vindicator and the Land Raider CAN pop tanks with their weapons, the MM on the LR isn't reliable and the Demo Cannon shot is wasted against a transport vehicle. By that point, you're close enough to to have exposed your sides to your opponent for sure, and are likely in melta range. Say good bye to the Vindicators.
Finally, if you are hiding the Vindicators behind the Land Raider, you are blocking LOS for the Demolisher Cannon to fire. Because its hull mounted, it only gets a 45 degree arc of sight. Meaning its blocked by the Land Raider. They'd need to have to come from behind the Land Raider to shoot, which defeats the purpose of having been behind the LR in the first place. :D
Do I think the idea has possibilities? Sure. But you'll have to be very careful in how you implement them in the list building phase. It'd also potentially have problems on the battlefield, but dependent on the army list, you might be able to overcome them.