Email: Vindicators and Land Raiders...Hmmm...

5/7/2011

Email:

Hi Laeroth,
Yea things have been almost surreal. Do you think things seem crazier than normal?

I am glad to see you back online. Ill look forwards to developments. Looks like Black templars are in the pipe.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/04/40k-rumors-black-templars-otw.html

I reckon this new book will be amazing. Until then, one will have to do the best they can with a very old codex. In the next year we'll see 6th edition and a new BT codex!For now.. back to the old codex and some discussion. I've got some crazy ideas, may not work, but its fun doing so.

Few things to bring up
- I think pods can be viable transports, their cheaper than SM, and better. On IN I have just seen only pods being used in mass.
-I think the trouble with the casual list is the land raider. I dont see any competitive lists taking them, its a pity.

A few personal words on land raider.
Its troubling that a rhino can give pretty much similar survivability once its been penetrated to a land raider. The point difference of 50 points to 265 points is a large one, 205 points. Is the land raider really worth that much more?
One thing that has been on my mind is the land raider size, it can act as a shield for other vehicles.

This had led me to the thought -
I am wondering how the land raider would be if used with vindicators.
I think the trade off between vindicators and land raiders is nice, it forces the opponent to make split fire.
One problem with this is if you get second turn and you have no cover - coming on reserve with vindicators is a death wish - I think.

Anyway. Without the siege rams you can fit two vindicators behind the land raider and they are hidden. Here is some pictures. Fits in 12 inches.

Stick some terminators inside and there is something that should keep your opponent busy for at least 4 turns. It would be expensive - 775 points.

However it is somewhat deadly, the land raider obscures the vindicators, then when the vindicators want to they can move/shoot 36 inches, which should hit anything in the second turn.
In addition the vindicators can get 4+ cover save while shooting behind the land raider.

The point is, the land raider here acts more as a Shield and transport rather than an assault tank. So its 265 points is going into something else. Its huge points and size gives other benefits

Ill follow up with a couple of lists, and see if we can get anywhere.

Reply:

Haha. The rumor mill has started to flow a little bit so we might be seeing some updates on our new codex soon enough. However, for the time being, there is nothing concrete on the board, other than they are working on it and Phil Kelly is writing the book (which is a damn good thing imo). So we'll keep the discussion regarding that to a minimum for now. ;)

I want to start with the Drop Pod point first, since they are getting some attention once again in various places where BT players frequent. Which is understandable, because the BT DP rules are superior to the 5th Edition version. They did take a step back, however, with the nerf to Deathwing Launchers but that was more of a bonus anyway. There are a couple of reasons why I don't use them in non-full Drop Pod armies.

My first reason is that they do not provide saturation to the list. What do I mean by that? Lets say that you have your traditional support units: Land Speeders, Predators, and perhaps some Dreadnoughts. Then you have your troops units. If you were to spend points on drop pods for your dreadnoughts and troops, you would leave your Land Speeders and Predators exposed to enemy shooting on the first turn (unless you reserved, but then your shooting is affected). You give far fewer targets to your opponent, allowing your opponent to neutralize them at their leisure. Then when your pods come onto the board, which could end up being piece-meal, they suffer from Deep Strike. So that means you cannot move, shoot heavy weapons, or even charge. You get to run or shoot assault weapons. While its true you can use the DP as LOS blocking "terrain", that impedes your next turn's moves (unless you simply dropped on an objective). In the end, you're stuck getting shot up because your opponent already killed your fire support earlier in the game.

In addition, something I already hinted at, you do not know when your DP support will arrive. If the rest of your forces need that DP to come and it doesn't, you're SOL. Whereas full drop pod armies don't need to worry about that threat, because all of your forces are coming on from reserve so have a high likelihood of getting at least partially what you need. Many a tactical opportunities have been missed by a delayed unit from reserve.

Lastly, DP's do not provide you with any additional mobility once they've come down. Against opponents whom can quickly redeploy (Eldar, Dark Eldar, Blood Angels, etc), this is a very bad thing. Or if you scatter too far, you might find yourself well out of the way of the action, when those support/troops units are a needed part of your army.

To summarize, not having sufficient saturation at the start of the battle allows your opponent to make easy targeting decisions and can make short work of anything you deploy. You are essentially playing with less points, while your opponent has a full army. Also, you do not know when your forces will arrive. This limits the tactical planning you can reliably count on and gives your opponent more time to deal with the units already on the table. Finally, the Drop Pods do not give you any more mobility once they've landed. Effectively creating a footslogging force for your army. The way to counteract this negative is to have so many drop pods that you can be everywhere on the board at need. Which is impossible with a hybrid DP list.

Alright, the second point you brought up concerning the Land Raider and Vindicators. There is a few concerns I have with that and I'll talk about what they are. The theory behind the idea is not bad, but actually putting it into practice is more difficult than it seems.

The initial thing that I wanted to bring up was that when you're facing a "rock" type army such as this one, your opponent can and will hurt you in the deployment phase to be sure. If you have the first turn, what do you do? Where do you deploy? Unless you're playing Spearhead, you're likely deploying in the middle of the board to account for possible refused flanks. The problem with that is your opponent will likely deploy in the corners to force you to split your forces. Then they've got you. Because if you stick together, you won't have enough time to kill off the other corner while they are blasting away at your Vindicator's exposed sides. If you DO split, then your forces are much more easily dealt with by the two halves of your opponent's army.

But what about if you deploy second? Most likely, they'll deploy in the corners anyway as to limit the damage you can cause early game. They certainly shouldn't deploy all together so you can just drive forward, with your front armor blocked, and blast huge holes in their forces. At least, experienced players won't.

Second, hiding behind the Land Raider slows the Vindicators down significantly. Which is bad when they suffer from "One Gun Syndrome". There is no way that your opponent doesn't have at least one side shot on your Vindicators. While PotMS/EA will allow it to stay functioning with a Shaken/Stunned result, the other four damage results hurt you badly. You need to get the Vindicators to your opponent's lines ASAP. Then you have to worry about movement blocking on the Land Raider, which blocks your Vindicators behind. Its best to just present the AV13 and drive as fast as you can forward and get your one shot off. Any more than that is a bonus. Using the Land Raider to block one of the Vindicator sides is an option though, but you still suffer from my first comment.

Third, what happens if your opponent is mechanized and has nothing on foot? Assuming you are playing 1500 points, this combo is 1/2 of your total army. And you still have to fit the EC and troops in. Leaving you with very little to pop open transports so your Demolisher Cannons/Terminators can go to work. The lack of AT is a serious problem. While both the Vindicator and the Land Raider CAN pop tanks with their weapons, the MM on the LR isn't reliable and the Demo Cannon shot is wasted against a transport vehicle. By that point, you're close enough to to have exposed your sides to your opponent for sure, and are likely in melta range. Say good bye to the Vindicators.

Finally, if you are hiding the Vindicators behind the Land Raider, you are blocking LOS for the Demolisher Cannon to fire. Because its hull mounted, it only gets a 45 degree arc of sight. Meaning its blocked by the Land Raider. They'd need to have to come from behind the Land Raider to shoot, which defeats the purpose of having been behind the LR in the first place. :D

Do I think the idea has possibilities? Sure. But you'll have to be very careful in how you implement them in the list building phase. It'd also potentially have problems on the battlefield, but dependent on the army list, you might be able to overcome them.

Marshal Laeroth

37 Comments

Devjon link

5/7/2011 06:06:34 pm

Alright, this all makes enough sense to not set off any warning signs in my head (humor me, it's late) except for one thing: Demolisher Cannons being wasted on Transports.

Yes, the Large Blast can't hit 6-7 guys but it is S 10. Plus it is an ordinance weapon so you roll 2 dice on the damage table when you penetrate and pick the highest one. Chance to destroy once penetrated? 56%. Take that Melta Weapons.

S 10 means that it needs to roll a 2 to penetrate most transports, 3 on the tougher ones. So it is more reliable than a Lascannon against, well, all armor values. Even compared to melta weaponry you are at

Yes, it scatters but I just checked. Now, I don't know the dimensions of a Rhino but if it is 3" wide then, since a Large Blast only needs to touch a vehicle to hit it, there is a 72% chance to hit the vehicle you fire at. Not a Twin-Linked Lascannon but it can also hit other vehicles if they are close enough. And that 72% us the low chance when it scatters in the worst direction.

So, higher strength and more accurate than a Lascannon. It only has a 24" range but...Multi-Meltas have that too. Against armor the Demolisher Cannon is better than a Meltagun at anything more than 6" away or 12" away for a Multi-Melta, even then it can be compared to them. And it is better that a Lascannon at 24". That extra range of the Lascannon? not much extra with PotMS.

So no, you do not waste the shot by shooting at transports. If anything you waste it by aiming at small or cheap units of infantry.

Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link

5/7/2011 08:48:56 pm

I thought about clarifying that, but decided I'd answer the comment if it came up. I shouldn't be surprised it was the first thing someone said about my response.

The reason I said that the Demo Cannon shot is wasted is because if you fire it at the transport, you're not using it for its intended use: killing infantry. Particularly those with good armor saves. The Demo Cannon has a good chance of killing vehicles, I agree. But is a 160 point vehicle worth a 35 point Rhino? Because that is what the trade would be most likely and there is a good chance you're in range of your opponent's melta. Doesn't seem like an equal trade to me.

Now, if all of your other AT weaponry fails to crack a transport, sure go for it. But that is the absolute last resort, as you want to be shooting infantry with the cannon, not cheap transports. Even the cheapest MEQ unit is 2.5 times as expensive as a 5th Edition Rhino.

That is why I say its a wasted shot. The life expectancy for a Vindicator is 1 shot, so you want it to be shooting infantry if at all possible. I wasn't referring to its ability to kill its target. :)

5/8/2011 02:44:14 am

Ahh, yes. But at the same time it still has a rather good chance of killing something really big and it is so often taken not for anti-infantry but simply s a distraction unit that getting a shot off at clumped vehicles could do more damage than shooting at anything except a terminator squad.

But I was not counting on only getting one shot off. Only a few? Yes. But at least 3-4 between two of them.

Oh, well. At least this taught me something.

5/8/2011 06:52:45 am

While I agree with you that they are primarily taken as distraction units, you really do want them to do something for you in battle. Especially when they are eating 1/2 of your points. :D

Now, what I said is always subject to exceptions depending on the opponent, but in general, it is my opinion that spending the Demo Shots on transports is not something you want to make a habit of unless you really need that vehicle open. It might be a better option to target Leman Russes, a battlewagon, or even a Land Raider, but you have to make those decisions as they come up. :)

Algesan link

5/9/2011 09:05:03 am

IMO, GW is indulging itself in a mass of disinformation. Odds are the next codex will be a non-Imperial one, maybe Necrons, maybe Tau, but I think Necrons will get the next shot because they have a bit more "leg" from earlier rumors. Then we could think of Sisters or one of the side Marine Chapters (BT/DA).

Both BT & DA are decently competitive, but Sisters are rather limited. They do have a few advantages from their old codex, but they also have several weaknesses. For example, I'd hate to try to run Immolator spam against something like your mech gunline. IIRC, I can squeeze about ten into a 2k list and you have fifteen or so shots you can take against them. Against AV11? HAH!

The one build I haven't seen, but I think would have some use in theory is attaching the IG platoon with mass HW squads. Yes, it is on foot (because Sisters steal the Chimeras), but it gives you power armored troops hiding in AV12 in midfield with lots of heavy weapons, including mortars for indirect barrage fire plastering everything in sight. Beatable? Yes, but it might be more difficult than you think. Again, your gunline would be useful, but in this case its brittle nature would hurt it badly since Heavy Flamers, Meltas and Autocannons would work wonders against almost all of your vehicles.

The line about Sisters being delayed because of modelling problems related to their hair and clothing are a bad joke. Women late being ready because of those reasons?

It makes a whole lot more sense to release a new Black Templar codex closer to the release of the MMO given the prominence of BT Marines in the trailers. Plus the bonus of clearing up the last two really ailing codices this year would give GW some good propaganda.

Act of God

5/9/2011 03:39:04 pm

While I agree to a degree that this list would suffer greatly against a dangerous mechanized list, against the right target this would be brutal. I would not advocate taking this to a tournament but if you know what you'll be facing (the army, not the list) this could work very well. Against something like nids, necrons, or an ork horde, this would potentially be absolutely devastating with 2 demolisher shots for at least 1 shot each, and against any of the above three lists probably 2 if not 3 shots each, the vindicators should wreck stuff and the unmolested land raider full of terminators should smash everything left pretty easily.

5/10/2011 03:26:28 am

@Act of God

While you make some good points there are two problems with it. One is that if you choose this list because you're fighting orcs/tyranids/necrons then you are tailoring. Two is that this list does not suffer against a dangerous mechanized list, it suffers against a list that can handle tanks (i.e. anything balanced). So while taking it for a fun, casual game would be fun (large blast, S10, ordinance, what's not to like?) it should not be chosen because you are fighting a particular enemy unless both players agree and your opponent is bringing something because you are playing Black Templar.

Playing would be fun, but not if you're tailoring to your opponent.

5/10/2011 08:20:37 am

@ Devjon

Agreed, a list that can handle tanks would mess up your day. As for the tailoring, in my regular gaming group, this is perfectly normal. We always write our lists with our opponent's army in mind because none of us like to win/lose because we or our opponent were not using a good army for the game we play, the way we see it, it is far more enjoyable to win/lose because you outplayed your opponent and the victory is more satisfying because you know your opponent built his list with your army in mind (prime example being things like Blessed Hull on LRCs, this is a complete waste of points unless you know you're fighting dark eldar, eldar, or to a lesser extent nids).

5/10/2011 09:18:19 am

I do wish there was a way to do some list tailoring. One common suggestion for Black Templars is allowing the EC to choose which vow to use. Another would be to pay six points for a flamer or plasmagun and then choosing which to field. Or pay one price for a Predator and choose whether it is going to be AC/TLLC turret + LC/HB sponsons before you play.

One I'm using now for informal games is a somewhat trivial one, I decide as I'm pulling my models out whether squads are going to be Bolter or BP/CCW at that time.

However, that would introduce another level of complication and I don't see GW going that way right now.

Best bet we have now is a Deep Strike list where you have stuff that can start on the field OR go into reserves to Deep Strike.

5/10/2011 10:11:46 am

@ Act of God

You're right, I neglected to mention it but tailoring is not a problem if both players are doing so, it can even add a new tactical depth. But what I meant is only applicable to when one player tailors and the other does not. And...I can't end this reply without looking arrogant and stupid. So here's a Smiley: :)

5/10/2011 02:30:55 pm

@ Devjon

No worries, I know most groups don't tailor their lists, but my group does this all the time. Often we will know a week in advance what army our opponent is going to be using but in the case of at least a few of us, knowing what your army your opponent is using doesn't necessarily help. Based on the fact that we regular proxy, it can be all but impossible to tell exactly what I will face from one week to another, because our lists are almost never the same. I find this makes the game very interesting because although I know I will be facing nids for instance, and I have their codex so know what they are capable of, I have no idea what flavour of nids I'll be facing, which means I spend most of the week churning out lists in an attempt to figure out just what tools I'm going to want (Do I need to worry about 200 model hordes? Is it a monster mash with 10-20 monsters?...)

5/10/2011 05:27:11 pm

@ Act of God

Hmm, that does sound interesting. Of course, some armies have things which you can count on. Wit Tyranids, for instance, you know that you won't need any weapons that are specifically anti-tank, just high strength guns and anti-infantry, so Lascannons would become worse while Missile Launchers gain in usefulness; Plasmaguns can outshine Meltaguns, and so on. Of course, this is just rambling to myself.

It seems like that would be a different style of game, with less difficulty when you have weapons that won't work against your opponent or won't work as well as another option.

Lucion

5/14/2011 05:24:42 am

Yeah so its better vs hoarde armies.

The point was not to make a be all win all list, but find ways to integrate units together and be creative.

With regards to vindicators and Lrc's how about adding in a LRC to the mechanized BT lists with vindicators and massed razor backs.

It would look something like this

Emp champ,
Assault termies

LRC

x2 vindicators
x3 razor back with tllc, guys with plasma, las cannons.

5/14/2011 05:32:57 am

On another note "this probably deserves a new topic" I came across a nice little gem recently.

It has a bit of a short and brief overview on templars, its quite blunt and may upset people. But hey, the truth can hurt, and no its not from Stelek.

http://nike40k.blogspot.com/2011/01/black-templar-thoughts-one-week-later.html

I created this list, sticking to my 1500 pt list limit, and i think its hard ass.

6 cyclone missile launchers firing 12 str 9 missiles is just sheer bad ass.
Try it vs 3 leman russ! Its fun :) They cant do crap, and half the time the termies are getting 4+ cover save incase they get shot at.
Try it vs 6 leman russ.

Laeroth you spoke about a new archetype. I think x2 squads of CML termies with a marshal could be one. Its a kind of "Devastator terminator list" and could work both with las plas rhinos or mixing in a kind of black tide with all the shootyness.

Anyway heres a 1500 list I made

Emp champ, aac
Marshal, TH, SS, Mantle
x4 Terminators,command - x2 Cyclone
x5 terminators, x2 cyclones
x5 terminators, x2 cyclones

1x las plas crusader squad in rhino
1x las plas crusader squad in rhino
1x las plas crusader squad in rhino

It shoots the crap out of anything, dead simple.

12 str 9 krak is just horrible, and those terminators can soak incredible damage.

The mantle means that squad can put las cannons on it, and the marshal can take those shots to protect other guys.

I'd imagine dropping a term squad for another 2 las plas squads could be good also, but man - 12 krak at str 9 at 1500 pts or 12 str 4 blasts - thats some nice dual stuff going on with your 30 rerollable powerfist attacks in CC.

The armies a bit bread and butter, have yet to try it, but so far I like it.

5/14/2011 05:37:32 am

Going on again about what I think is the new templar archetype "which is the basis for your nova list"

Its pretty much - Devastator terminators.

Now I have seen your list go with the TLLC troops.

What about evolving Steleks adepticon 1000 pt list? Its shooty terminators with black tide - neos/ini.pfist melta.

Thinking something like x15 terminators, 6 cyclones.

60 guys - crusaders and initiates, pfist melta

What you end upwith is a ton of **** walking towards you, shoot an neophyte? Oh no I lost 10 points, shoot the terminators? oh no i get 4+ cover save a and theres more guys.

Ok something like triple medusa str 10 would be harsh at this, but those things are only 36 in range, and 12 krak misslle will just shoot the crap out of it.

Whats nice is the alpha strike and ENDURNANCE of this army but I really believe the 3 squads of terminators is best.

Also - more cyclones on terminators eliminates need for speeders, which will a good points cost, I am doubting for their overall fragility.

5/15/2011 05:33:18 pm

@ Lucion

Alright, 12 S9 48" range attacks. What else can you do with those points that are spent on Terminators?

Well, if you drop one of those squads you lose 4 missile. You spend that on 3 Land Speeders and get 6 missiles. The new missiles are S8 but you also get 3 Heavy Bolters. The Land Speeders are fragile but mobile and able to get cover pretty easily.

Drop another Squad and you can get 2 Predators. The Auto/Las variety. You lose another 4 S9 attacks which are replaced with 2 S9 attacks and 2 S7. AV 13 is practically immune to what usually is used against Terminators (i.e. Torrent of Fire or mid-strength, low AP weaponry like Autocannons or Plasma). And, when needed, you have mobility.

The final Terminator Squad? Keep it. Drop the Marshal's Thunderhammer and Adamantine Mantle, replacing them with a Power Weapon, freeing up 50 points. I would also change the Champion's Vow to Abhor the Witch seeing as this is not a close combat army and that would free up another 30 points. Upgrade a couple of the Crusader Squads to have Razorbacks instead of Rhinos and now you have a list that looks like this:

Emperor's Champion: Vow (Abhor), -110

Marshal: PW, SS; Terminator Command Squad (4): 2 CML, Tank Hunters; -335

Crusader Squad (5/1): 3 Bolters, BP/CS, Lascannon, Plasma Gun; Razorback: Twin-Linked Lascannon, Extra Armor, Smoke; -204

Crusader Squad (5/1): 3 Bolters, BP/CS, Lascannon, Plasma Gun; Razorback: Twin-Linked Lascannon, Extra Armor, Smoke; -204

Crusader Squad (6): 4 Bolters, Lascannon, Plasma Gun; Rhino: Extra Armor, Smoke; -180

Land Speeder: TML, Heavy Bolter, -70

Land Speeder: TML, Heavy Bolter, -70

Land Speeder: TML, Heavy Bolter, -70

Predator: Autocannon, Lascannon Sponsons, Extra Armor, Smoke, -133

Predator: Autocannon, Lascannon Sponsons, Extra Armor, Smoke, -133

Total:-1,499

Now, look and see if one list is better. I have 11 S9 48" range shots. 4 less than you did (since I had not counted the Lascannons before). But I also have 4 S7 48" shots, 6 S8 48" shots, Mobility in most of my force, and I don't really lose very much durability. Yes, 12 S9 shots is quite good against AV 14, but you should not be shooting at the front armor of those things, get side shots (which the Land Speeders can do) to take them down.

Now, I don't mean to sound imperious or rude. I want to start discussion so that one of us can learn since I disagree with you.

5/15/2011 08:06:39 pm

I dont think you sound rude. Its great to get feedback. I would prefer lists with at least x2 CML termy squads are used if "remade however" with the concept of the devastator termies.

For the record I would be interested to see how a emphasis on the vehicles would do, and I have these models. I do feel a little at ends with using other peoples lists straight up though. I have done that before, won some games, even all my games at tournaments - and realized that this list is not for me because I didnt make it.

I want a list now that is tweaked in my own way, it may seem a bit strange, but it will be mine.

I've used typhoons LS and preds in a list however, and I can see what they do. They do it very well, but I want to create something new. That focuses on CML termies.

I am sold on las plas squads with a marshal because how can you invest in las plas squads without leadership 10 to benefit their shooting?

So yes, I am looking to focus on CML termies, regardless of what they look like on paper. I am interested in how the massed firepower/melee duality will have an effect on the game.

5/15/2011 08:15:37 pm

Repeating again, I dont think disagreements are rude. Infact, I think blind coherence is ruder when people hush up and dont say things they should do.

I think your list is a beneficial remake.
Its quite interesting because it is similar to this list - written on Nikes website

(Its nice there is others devoted to BT out there http://nike40k.blogspot.com/search/label/Black%20Templars
________________
So here is my first draft a NOVA list.

EC with AAC - 140
5x Terminators with Cyclones, Tank Hunters -255
4x Landspeeder Typhoons -280
4x5x Initiates w/ Meltagun in TLLC Razorback with Smoke and Extra Armor Searchlights -756
2x5 Initiates with Lascannon -190
3x Predator Destructors w/ LC sponsons and Searchlights -378

________________

At the same time, it does not go big on the CML termies, which is what I am looking to get a game in with.

5/15/2011 09:03:27 pm

With regards to lists in general I would like to reiterate that playskill and experience matters more than your list, so long as a few basic principles are covered in the list.

This is also true for computer games. It is not the units you choose, its the way you use them.

In Counter strike a professional gamer can be just as deadly with a M4 Carbine or a pistol.

5/16/2011 05:30:54 am

See, this is why I made that comment about not trying to sound rude. I had understood that you were trying for an optimized list so I showed some various ways that the points spent on Terminators could be used better.

I agree strongly with several things you've said: playskill trumps list, I will never use a list straight from the internet because I did not make it, the Marshal is important, and I'm sure there are a few things I've missed.

But, again, I was not trying to alter your list (well, not completely) but trying to show that the archetype is not the best. But I was tired then and now am curious of how it will do. So, I will attempt to give my version of a Devistator Terminator list at 2,000 points. (2,000 because I've not yet made a list that began at anything but, I've adjusted 2,000 lists down to lower level but I should remain in my comfort zone).

Emperor's Champion: Vow (Abhor) -110

Marshal: Storm Bolter, SS; Terminator Command Squad (4): 2 CML, Tank Hunters; -325

Marshal: Storm Bolter, SS; Terminator Command Squad (4): 2 CML, Tank Hunters; -310

Terminator Squad (5): 2 CML, Tank Hunters, -265

Terminator Squad (5): 2 CML, Tank Hunters, -265

Crusader Squad (5/3): Missile Launcher, Plasma Gun; Rhino: Extra Armor, Smoke, Searchlight; -175

Crusader Squad (5/2): Missile Launcher, Plasma Gun; Rhino: Extra Armor, Smoke, Searchlight; -175

Crusader Squad (5/2): Missile Launcher, Plasma Gun; Rhino: Extra Armor, Smoke, Searchlight; -175

Crusader Squad (5/2): Missile Launcher, Plasma Gun; Rhino: Extra Armor, Smoke, Searchlight; -175

*All Initiates are armed with Bolters, all Neophytes are armed with BP/CS.

8 Cyclone Missile Launchers, 4 Regular Missile Launchers, and redundancy. Now, I could have saved 60 points by switching one of the Command Squads to a regular squad and Dropping the Marshal that leads it, but the Marshal brings better close combat ability to them and provides redundancy to the Rites of Battle. I chose Abhor the Witch instead of Accept Any Challenge because this is not a Close Combat Army and I actually needed those 30 points. I had originally designed this with another Terminator Squad, but I dropped that in favor of a forth Crusader Squad, Plasma Guns for everybody, and those Neophytes. I would have taken Lascannons instead of Missile Launchers but there is already plenty of S9 shots and now I have a better weapon against infantry.

The general idea is the same, to drop down to 1,500 you just drop a Crusader Squad, and a Marshal with his Terminator Command Squad. What do you think?

5/16/2011 12:04:15 pm

I like it. At 1.500 points that is a nice drop, and will still have raw firepower.

Yeah your right, putting less points into the marshal and making the crusaders squads more survivable is better.

Its better than the first one I came up with, but that was just the raw bits anyway.

Plasma gun and ML is a nice combo. One does not really meed the las cannon with so many tank hunting termies.

My one criticism is at the amount of points invested in terminators AAC needs to be there. They are not dedicated anti infantry but they are still guys with 2 power fists. I'd imagine in most games you will want to get them in combat, and for 30 points more its worth cutting something else out.

The neos are nice, but I suppose they would go.

Now I am not sure on how the termies are going to do. I will have 3 squads of 5 soon and play a few games with them.

My intution says 2 preds may be worth bringing instead of 1 squad of termies.

So - developing the Dev termies it looks like some things to consider would be

Crusader weapon load outs,
Maybe a comination of CC initiate squads and shooty ones?

5/16/2011 12:06:44 pm

Bringing this up while its on my mind.

Alot of this list theorizing would benefit from some simulation.

I am not sure if youve come across this but have a look :

http://battlechronicler.com/index.html

You put your lists it, and they are represented by little pictures.

What if there was a mathematical system which would simulate battles with theoretical lists?

You could take archetype tournament lists and with an algorithm - get 2 lists to simulate a war with probabilities and stuff.

5/16/2011 12:14:06 pm

About the AAC.

I was suggesting getting into combat when you have like 3 squads of termies and it may be worth getting close with some.

It just means you can both sit at 48 inchs, but also enter close and get your 30 pfist attack rerolls.

3 termy squads is like 800+ points, and 30 points to buff it all just seems worth it to me.

5/16/2011 12:31:27 pm

Reading over Nikes website, who has emphasised CML terminators - I cannot justify such heavy use of ranged rhino squads firepower and CML terminators without a marshal.

http://nike40k.blogspot.com/search/label/Black%20Templars

When 80% of your armies points are invested in shooting, the 20% chance to hit extra from having a marshall is crucial - I think!

Its kind of like..

Will it all be AAC? Then you need pfist/melta guys in rhinos, at least 2 squads.

Will it be marshall with rites of battle? Well have at least 2-4 dedicated shooty crusader squads then.

Off the top of my head im thinking down with the speeders, up with the CML termies, and thoughts about the which do you want.. AAC Or rites, and if your taking both, make it needs to reflect in those crusader squads.

5/16/2011 12:49:31 pm

Another thing, when there are x3 squads of CML termies the only way I'd see a Typhoon to be useful is hiding behind a rhino - taking their shots, and then acting as objective swoopers late game.

This is nice, because it means templars can play that kind of game.

5/16/2011 01:06:16 pm

Ok I went mad.

I worked out that when spending so many points on rhinos.. what is it, 20 points extra per vehicle?
Well if found a justification that goes like this.

Would you rather all your 4 squads of guys start the table in rhinos, or how about, 1 is in a rhino, 1 is in a LRC, 2 are buffed with neos and are there purely to go go ground/objective cap, if they really need to stay alive.

I worked out that with spending so much on all the rhino squads when you really just want a survivable squad with a heavy weapon to hold objectives.. well. I found justification for a LRC. Yea I dont care if ppl say its not competitive, point is, if I can save 150 points on 3 transports, buff those objective cappers with some neophytes and work it out so they can come on reserve/go to ground to do their job, then it can work.

it means instead of 3 rhinos, after your terminator dudes have disabled anything that can hurt a LRC, the LRC turns up. Thats right, would need to position it very well, and worse case scenario come on as reserve and use it as a base. But think about it, even if can only come on as reserve turn 3, it can pick up terminators and get them in an assault after everything has been shot to ****

See? Its not "ok everything starts on table and im gonna shoot you" its I am gonna shoot you with 12 str 9 missile launchers, then my ride is gonna turn up/ come along and im gonna hop in and go boxing with the remaining turns.

This eliminates the idea that the dev terminators are JUST dev termies whose pretty bad ass melee capabilities can get some use, their multi functional.

If one positions it correct it could be like:

x3 turns of 12 missiles. Then LRC turns up, unmolested.
x1 turn of guys charging with 15 attacks str 8 reroll
1x another turn of guys hopping in, then one final turn of 15 attacks re rolls

YES LRC CAN DIE IN ONE HIT!
But 3 turns of 12 str 9 missiles.. Lrc prob wont die so easy unless your opponent starts doing what your doing and coming in LAYERS.

So I did a 2k list taking out all the squiggly bits. No LS Ok the marshal is questionable. he has a storm bolter, but he is really only there to benefit the capping squads. But even they.. with only 1 missile, perhaps hes not even worth it. Well just drop him and in a LS for objective harras later, or fill out neophytes/add more crusaders.

So if your still with me and not lost, you can see that this list is not one that would always want to start on the board, it comes on in layers.

Anyways, enjoy, I am really liking the 2k feel.

Emperor's Champ
-AAC
=140

Marshal, Storm bolter, x4 terminator squad, x2 cml, tank hunters. 305

5x Terminator Squad
-2x Cyclone Launchers
-Tank Hunters
=265

5x Terminator Squad
-2x Cyclone Launchers
-Tank Hunters
=265
975

2x5 Initiates + 2 Neos with BP/CCW (one squad has minus one Neo, and Champ goes with them)
-1 squad has rhino Rhino other has.. BLACK TEMPLARS LAND RAIDER CRUSADER
-Smoke
-Meltagun
-pfist
=565

1x5 + Initiates with bolters, missile launcher, 2 neophytes
110
1x5 + Initiates with bolters, missile launcher, 2 neophytes
110

2x1 autolas predators 250

2000

5/16/2011 07:01:13 pm

Don't worry, I'll be making my reply soon (come back to town today). Some good discussion coming up here.

Do you still want me to post up that second email Lucion? Or disregard it in lieu of your new comments? I answered a lot of the stuff in this email that I'd address over there, but there were some things I didn't touch such as the list trying to replicate Tony K's Nova army. Let me know. :)

5/16/2011 10:23:44 pm

Hey Laeroth.

x2 Boxes of terminators came today as well as this stuff called Insta mold. Now I can create 6 Cmls from just 2.

With insta mold you can take parts, i.e cyclones and push it into this forming a dent in the surface.

You then put green stuff into the surface and recreate the cyclones.
Search for instant mold on ebay.

Laeroth I think the only thing worth bringing up from those other emails was the adaption of Tony's troops section.

That is pretty much
2x5 Grey hunters in razor back with flamers. I am going to make a seperate post for it.

I recommend people try that insta mold stuff it would be a cheap way to replicate valued parts. (I see 1 cyclone on 1 terminator go for like £15)

5/16/2011 11:36:09 pm

Kupach analysis for Black Templars.

I think what was interesting about Kupach was that he didnt take the most tooled list. Rather it is his general knowledge of the game, turns, etc, that won.

Never the less I think analysing the list in terms of its investment of points, and knowledge of the output of those investments could lead to some interesting thoughts. At best it is theory, at worst, it is what we do all the time when not in battle.

The aim is to create a series of strategic tools for the mind. To break down things of value of succesfully balances list into their most basic and prime elements so that those patterns can guide archetypes.

I am doing this with a business frame of mind - looking to save points with the Black templar codex and try to work more with what we are blessed with.

I accept I am quite biased towards new ways of thinking, and have attempted to integrate the traditional forms where possible.

____________________

Development of analysis into software

Perhaps exploration of this area and someone technically minded with programs could integrate this way of thinking with battle chronicler.

What would happen?
We would be able to enter points lists into a small program, and watch them simulate. With all the technology available now this surely cant be difficult to do?

It should be dead easy for someone with a bit of computer nous.
____________________
Relevance for Black templars

It would worthwhile to consider possible parralels between Tonys list and how this may be used for Black templars.

We'll start with troops. We'll have a look at the points invested, and see how Templars might invest similarly.

Here is the list

http://www.baldandscreaming.com/army-lists/nova-open-army-lists-tony-kopach-tournament-champion/

At 1850 points Tony bought
180 points - x8 Grey Hunters Meltagun, mark of the Wulfen, wolf standard, rhino
170 points - x7 Grey Hunters Meltagun, mark of the Wulfen, wolf standard, rhino
170 points - x7 Grey Hunters Meltagun, mark of the Wulfen, wolf standard, rhino

150 points - x5 Grey hunters flamer, razor back TLLC
150 points - x5 Grey hunters flamer, razor back TLLC

_________________

Summary

Some nice duality going on. The Rhinos advance and block, their melta bunkers with some melee capability - while the razor backs capture and hold.

Its basically
2-3 squads attack
2 squads hold

My question would how can templars do something similalry? We dont need to be exact. Infact. A better question is. For 820 points how can Templars capitalize on what they have that space wolves do not for a similar investment scheme and similar strategic output.

Out of 1850 points we see 820 points invested into troops - about 40%.

For 820 points and 40% of your army you get x3 chances to push forwards and cap in armoured transports and you have x2 chances to hold a position.

So lets not get too tight on having to copy tony. What we want is 2 squads which have the surviability and duality of the razor back squads.

So we might do something like invest 520 points into 2-3 squads which can advance in armoured transports, with meltas and melee capability. They should have at least 7 bodies.

We then want to invest about 300 points into two to three squads for the purposes of captuing points and giving out some firepower.

Those 300 points could be spent in a variety of ways

Some are

- 2x5 initiate Las plas squads in rhinos - 302 pts
- 3x5 initiate las cannon squads - 300 pts
- 2x5/2 initiates/neo las cannons with neophytes
- 2x6/4 initiates/neo with ML, plasma gun, shotguns, - 304 points

- (the above is a more balanced squad adaption I made yesterday - the reason being CML terminators means I dont need las cannons, and duality/ML is better, can drop a neo and plasma gun to save points. Its a bit hordish buts actually looks very difficult to kill. I put shotguns because these guys are holding objectives. They will shoot the crap out of anything at 18 inch range
__________________

Reflection

So We've looked a little at possible analogies and things we can do that Space wolves can at a similar output/investment scheme.

I noticed Tony did 3 squads at about 520 points.

Could templars do 2 squads at 520 points that would be able to do everything the 3 squads can?
Or how about 4 smaller squads? I dont think that is viable, but maybe you can see the deeper point I am trying to make?
__________________________

Current competitive templars in relation to above

What are the templar options for filling out 40% of the army then?

A rough run through of the competitive troops choices currently used.

(Neophytes can be increased or decreased in number but I would say 2 is the minimum.)

(no i didnt add smoke launchers)

1. 5/2 initiates/neophytes power fist/melta with AAC in rhino at 175
2. 5/5 initiates/neophytes power fist/melta with AAC in rhino at 205
3. 5 initiates, las cannon, plasma gun, rhino with Marshal rites of battle at 151 points
4. 5 Initiates, las ca

5/16/2011 11:50:24 pm

I made a small mistake. It was a 2k army list. Not 1850.

Its 41% in troops, now 40% - 800 divided by 2000 x 1000 = 41%.

5/16/2011 11:54:26 pm

Another crazy idea.

Massed CML terminators with POTMS vindicators coming in on reserve if need be.

You shoot shoot shoot the transports and stuff that can hurt vindicators then splat splat splat with demolisher cannon.

5/17/2011 04:50:02 am

Lucion, this is a lot to go over so I'm just going to talk about a few things and leave the rest to just mull around in my head, all good thoughts though.

First off, the problem with using your Layering idea is that Terminators are the only target for enemy fire. So they take all of the Anti-tank fire and all of the Anti-infantry fire.

On the other hand, it could work. 15+ Terminators are hard to take down, so I don't know if it will work or not.

Your whole idea about using software to run lists through an algorithm has two problems that come to mind. One is that it would almost necessarily use the best tactics in each situation whereas players will often not do so. The other is that to replicate a battle it would need to be programmed to do deployment, target priority, tricks with model positioning inside a unit, wound allocation, along with any other fuzzy factors which attribute to success or failure. Aside from those it also takes out some of the fun, I (and Learoth) enjoy simply making lists and finding ways to improve them. Such an algorithm would render that time useless as it would inform you of the best list possible for an army to make.

Alright, last thing is your final comment. You've got 12 S9 shots hitting vehicles, for this I'm going to compare it to one of my lists. The main targets that you're going to want to hit are 3 Auto/Las Predators in cover, 3 Land Speeder Typhoons with Multi-Meltas, a Razorback with a Twin-Linked Lascannon, and a Las/Plas Crusader Squad in cover that will go to ground. Assuming average hits, it will take (some mathhammer here, using numberxsavexchance to destroyxwound or penetratexhit) 3x2x3x3x3/2 or 81 shots to kill the Predators, 3x3x6/5x3/2 or 16.2 shots to kill the Land Speeders. The rest add up quickly and, in short, you cannot count on being able to stop all of the fire and save your Vindicators.

But that is as close as we can get to having an algorithm to see which list is better.

In short, the combined efforts of CML Terminators and PotMS Vindicators as two major parts of a list makes it a gimmick and detracts from its scoring ability. Like many Rock lists, it would be cool to see and a challenge for some lists but it is not good enough to be worth it.

Plus I've got a Terminator squad teleporting in with Tank Hunting Assault Cannons, two large close combat Crusader Squads with Meltaguns in Rhinos, and another Crusader Squad with a Multi-Melta.

5/17/2011 09:04:16 am

Glad there were some good thoughts. It would appear the last posts have been for the community and a fusion n of the leading popular BT strategy websites.

Any criticism found in such writings are usually the representation of another source - i.e. Stelek, Nike and Laeroth.

It was least expected to find random "fuzzy ideas" meeting up with words like useless and gimmick.

Ac terminators with tank hunters. Arent they more of a one trick pony? It would be cool to see a list, the AC are nice models but it appears there is not one list with them used with bt 101 on either or the regular websites.

In my experience every teleporting terminator squads dies in the first round of shooting. I assume they would be used well in a complete drop pod list where other units would represent support and other threats rather than one terminator squad in the middle of the battle field.

Vindicators and Dev termies are more for giggles that came in a random thought. It seems strange to sense they are being picked on.

Influenced by Nikes blog, the reasoning for the CML termitemplars came by taking out what has been considered less favourable from Steleks and Laeroths lists.

There was a post by Stelek of a triple vindicator list, adapted further by Laeroth. Firepower output of those lists is equal to lower CML terminators.

Original list is here http://yesthetruthhurts.com/2011/01/black-templars-fully-mech-and-liking-it/
Laeroth modified list is here
http://www.implausiblenature.net/black-templars-army-lists.html

3 typhoons and over priced razor backs in these lists actually support the vindicators with less fire power than the terminators.

15+ terminators at 48 inch range. Most anti infantry fire is closer than 48, so only their anti tank stuff can shoot at me.

If their anti tank stuff can shoot at me thats a good thing.

I have no experience with software, and perhaps algorithm was incorrect word. However when I look at final liberation (google it and look at the images) that is like 15 years old - I have no doubt a similar engine could be drafted into battle chronicler that would have benefit to the visual gamer.

5/17/2011 10:30:54 am

Interestingly, the CML Terminators and Vindicator list at Yesthetruthhurts is actually quite nice.

http://yesthetruthhurts.com/2011/05/black-templar-musings

5/18/2011 04:30:09 am

I'm not sure if I would call the Assault Cannon Terminators One Trick Ponies. I have a Teleport Homer in one of my aggressive squads and their intention is to teleport in and provide a threat that will absorb enemy fire OR dish out some serious suppression fire. Are they the best choice? No, were I to improve that list I would replace the Assault Cannons with CMLs. They aren't used in lists because for 10 more points you can have the far better CML Terminators.

I didn't mean to pick on the Vindicator/Terminator idea , but it just isn't reliable. You can't count on when the Vindicators are going to show up except that you can rely on just one or two coming on the field in the 2nd turn. By then you have not had a chance to kill all of the anti-Vindicator guns and your tanks has a good chance of dying as well as being out of range. It could be a fun list, but it isn't an awesome list.

Okay, comparison of the firepower of those two lists compared to replacing their Razorbacks and Land Speeders with Terminators. Note that whenever I say 'CML squads' or 'CML Terminators' I mean Tank Hunting ones. First: Stelek's list.

If you down-grade all of the Razorbacks to Rhinos without PotMS and drop the Land Speeders you can include 2 CML Terminator Squads. Drop a couple of the Crusader Squads and you get a third CML squad plus AAC. You lose 6 TL S9 shots, 6 S8 shots, 3 Heavy Bolters, and two basic Mechanized Crusader Squads. You gain 12 S9 shots. The TL shots can be compared to 8 non-TL shots. So 4 S9 compared to 6 S8. And Mobility.

Moving on to Learoth's list. Drop the Land Speeders, down-grade to rhinos w/o PotMS, drop some Neophytes and maybe a few Power Fists and you can have 3 CML Terminator Squads. So you lose 4 TL S9 shots (that is, 5 1/3 regular ones), 3 Multi-Meltas, 3 Heavy Bolters, 12 S8 shots. You get 12 S9 shots. So the comparison now is about 7 S9 shots compared to 12 S8 shots and 3 Multi-Meltas.

These are both poor lists to compare to as you aren't improving the lists, you're changing them. Learoth's list not so much, except that you take away some of the Close Combat ability of the Crusader Squads in favor of Close Combat ability in the Terminator Squads; you get more but it is also slower. Which brings me to Stelek's list. That list is built to move 12" a turn and still unleash impressive fire upon the opponent. Terminators will only be able to move 6". So they don't really have less firepower but they also have other benefits which fit with the synergy of the rest of the list. Synergy that the Terminator Squads lack.

Also, just to correct (because I'm picky like that). Just because Cyclone Missile Launchers have a 48" range, does not mean that you will be out of range of anything less. In Spearhead you might be, but only for a couple of turns at the most. In Pitched Battle same thing goes unless you deploy first. If you deploy first, and your opponent has his shorter range guns as far forward as possible, they will be anywhere from 24" to 35" away depending on where you have set up in your deployment. If you're closer than they can shoot at you on turn 2, if you are farther than they still can and all it takes is one failed morale check to run off the board. So, first turn only their 36"+ guns will be able to shoot at you (which are actually the most dangerous for Terminators as they often ignore that 2+ save) but 2nd turn onward that won't do any more.

An Algorythm (which, I agree, may not be the right word but I cannot think of a better one) to simulate how one list will do against another, while it may be possible, I still believe would detract from the fun of the game.

However, I have heard of a program or something called Vassal. You put in your list, select the avatars for your units, find an opponent, and you play a game of Warhammer on the internet. So you could try out the lists without having to buy a bunch of Terminators. Worth checking out if you want to try a list before purchasing things.

5/19/2011 07:30:29 am

Sure Vindicators arent reliable, but I am feeling 3 is going to be fun.

Yea taking the razors out does change the lists, but I am one for always creating new thoughts.

Vassal looks vast, will check it out more.

alex

5/19/2011 12:02:52 pm

On way to scotland. Dev I mainly wanted to say thankyou for you excellent analysis.

I see what you mean about bc. It could detract, but does math hammer detract?

There is endless scope in list writing, and I don't think math hammer can put a lid on that.

I am quite suprised to see the lrc list has not been bashed, although I imagine laeroth may have a ickle go.:)
I am curious. Its not a standard use of a lrc. Its not a rock unit either as terminators are outside. It doesn't use the lrc as some spearhead unit and actually condones coming on as reserve.

Email: Vindicators and Land Raiders...Hmmm...

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