Escalation League Update: Increasing the points!

11/21/2011

As I mentioned about a week ago, there is an escalation league going on here in the local area. I posted a list that I thought would do well, but changed my plans shortly thereafter when I took Algesan's advice on the Chaplain. This is what the list currently looks like:

HQ:
* Reclusiarch w/ Bolt Pistol, Crozius Arcanum, Artificer Armor, Rosarius, Krak Grenades, and Frag Grenades. [119]

TROOPS:
* Crusader Squad (7 Initiates, 2 Neophytes) w/ 7 BP & CCWs, Meltagun, and Powerfist. Mounted in a Rhino w/ Smoke Launchers. [210]
* Crusader Squad (5 Initiates) w/ 3 Bolters, Plasmagun, and Lascannon. [101]

FAST ATTACK:
* Land Speeder Typhoon. [70]

TOTAL: [500]

Well, the list has gone 7-0 thus far. There really isn't much that it cannot handle, though a IG player came dangerously close to beating me due to his long ranged weaponry. Anyway, this isn't about how good the list is doing or tooting my own horn, as most of my opponents are newish. I'm helping them build more solid lists and as time goes on, I'm seeing better lists grace the table.

However, I need some advice once more on where to proceed with my own list. The league rules state that we have 2 months of game play before we increase the points to 600, but the players are pretty much going to start playing higher levels irregardless. So I need a list. I already have something in mind, but I'd like to hear your suggestions first. :)

32 Comments

Algesan link

11/20/2011 05:59:24 pm

600 points?

Add a ML squad for 90 and put some Frags on the Rhino squad. You could convert one Initiate to a Neophyte and make it a ML/Pg squad. It would still effectively be a 7/3 squad with the Reclusiarch in there.

Or lose the Artificer armor and put in a Dreadnaught with Heavy Flamer and XA. It could tag along with the Rhino.

Or...
Reclusiarch, Terminator Armor, Rosarius, Crozius, Tank Hunter
THDC Terminator CMD squad
1xCrusader 5/0, ML
1xCrusader 5/0, LC
1xLS-Typhoon

Mini-gunline on foot with CC punch ;)

Morningstar

11/20/2011 08:54:31 pm

I haven't played in an escalation league, but 2 months at 500 and then only going up 100 points seems fairly slow, it'll take 10 months to reach 1,000 at that rate!

I thought the general idea was incrementing by 250 points with a time period of around a month per point level.

Unless it's going to start rising at a higher rate once people start getting into it/etc?

duskfrost

11/20/2011 11:32:43 pm

Correct me if Im wrong, I think our Hq don't need the terminator armour to "lead" a terminator cmd squad, therefore, for 500 points mini gunline,
how about this one?

Reclusiarch/Bp,frag,Krak
cmd terminator 4, cml*2
crusader 5, LC
crusader 5, LC
499

Devjon link

11/21/2011 12:58:24 am

I like that idea of dropping the Artificer armor and adding a Dreadnought. Other options could include dropping the Artificer armor and adding a Typhoon and a Rhino, or you could (nearly) add in another Las/Plas Squad or upgrade the one you have to be a second Close Combat squad.

But personally I would go with the Dreadnought idea (though I'm actually torn between a Heavy Flamer or a Missile Launcher).

Lucion

11/21/2011 02:35:00 pm

Refreshing post.
Dreadnought sounds fun.

Otherwise drop the rhino and try triple typhoons, with ML initiates. 8 Missile launchers :)

11/22/2011 02:12:40 am

So host, what did you have in mind. If your already 7-0 up I think you can afford a variation to the theme.

Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link

11/22/2011 04:57:50 am

Actually, what I had intended to do originally was something close to what Algesan suggested second.

Dropping the Art Armor, as well as an Initiate in the big squad (since Neophytes fight just as well with a Chappy charge). Then adding a Dreadnought with TL-Lascannon, Heavy Flamer, smoke launchers, and extra armor.

However...I might change my mind. Some good ideas in here. Hence why I asked for them. :D

11/22/2011 05:41:44 am

Additionally, my main goal has never been to win (though I try), but to teach the new guys a few things about the game.

One of the ways I do that is by bringing a balanced list every time I play...and not changing it after each game. Because its impossible to build a "tournament" tuned list at this points level, nor do the Black Templars have the points to pull off any gimmicky combos, balance is what I preach. And its working.

The players I've been watching and playing against are starting to bring better units to the board. Plus are starting to see why I make certain tactical comments during my games with them (like where to deploy something and how to move them). It is never "Do this or you'll lose". Its more of a "You could do this -- here's why; maybe do this -- and this is why; or this -- here's why." Seems they are starting to catch on. :)

But there is a guy there that likes to argue rules with me who I played with a long time ago. I would rather not argue, as I just let him have his way (cause it doesn't matter in a local game), but he insists on knowing the answer and being right. Thus, even though I've only played him once, he's on a quest to correct me about stuff. Which is rather annoying, since he'll go around to the other players (who are casual) to ask their opinion of the rule interpretation. Even after I busted out the rulebook and FAQs to support me. But every store has that person, so its not a big deal. Most of the other players seem to like me, so that is what I care about.

11/22/2011 06:32:04 am

Empower yourself by empowering others.

Be methodical and flexible in your approach, not necessarily directly, but by offering alternatives and a means for one to take their own journey over opinionated rules.

Our time is limited, so people should never waste it living someone elses life. Neither be trapped by the dogma , which is living with the results of other peoples thinking. Don't let the noise of others drown out your own inner voice. Most importantly have the courage to follow your heart and intuition. They somehow already know what you truly want to become, everything else is secondary.

11/22/2011 07:04:51 am

Instead of arguing you might instead look for his talents and strengths, motivations, next - something you might share in common.

carcharodon carcarias

11/22/2011 08:43:10 am

To a surrounded enemy, you must leave a way of escape.

11/22/2011 05:03:45 pm

Yep, get them into "hot wash" mode after the game. Once they get the attitude then it gets easy for them to do what I did, which is walk into the store for the first time and say I was their to lose a few games...because I needed to learn.

Then when I do lose, be able to ask my opponent what they saw that I did wrong, even if I think I see it, because they might have seen something I missed.

11/23/2011 02:12:00 am

If people are surrounded they will exert full strength. It may not be wise to solve things that way.

If I do not ask my opponent what I did wrong, I may not improve. I want to be stronger, I want my opponent to be stronger as well.

Eliath

11/23/2011 05:17:05 am

How would you deal with 40 orks, a nasty warboss and 3 deffkoptas? I'm struggling finding enough bullets.

11/23/2011 06:13:10 am

For that situation swapping the plasma gun to a flamer should help a little.

Whittling down the Deff koptas and the first 20 Orks should not be too difficult. Its the T6 warboss with powerklaw amongst the next 20 Orks.

11/24/2011 08:26:04 am

Well, I don't list tailor, so my list would remain the same even against the Orcs. However, I think the Dreadnought will really help against them. He has the ability to destroy large swathes of Orcs with the Heavy Flamer and will be able to tie up those big units.

On top of that, the CC unit should have no problem dealing with a good chunk of those Orcs, especially on the charge. They won't be able to take a charge, but in a small scale game, it is much easier to ensure that is the case.

But the big thing that you should be doing is refuse flanking and/or deploying forward with a durable/cheap unit to prevent those huge Scout moves to bust up your armor. Also make sure that you are deployed entirely in cover. Beyond seeing a battle report on it, I cannot really say for sure Eliath what is going on.

11/25/2011 02:38:30 am

What do you think Eliath? What would be your solution for that Ork list and how would you counter it with Laeroths list?

11/25/2011 02:42:23 pm

The Ork list is 500 points.
20 boys, 19 boys, 1 nob with power klaw, 1 warboss with power klaw, 3 deff koptas with Twin linked rockets.

11/25/2011 10:33:51 pm

@Lucion: That is why you ask first, then they get in the habit of asking back. If need be, you ask them why they did X.

For specific advice on Orks: That is why I have a foot list with a five Initiate squad w/ ML and two LS-Typhoons. Pour on the dakka, then when they get close, try to make sure I get the charge with my 6/4 squad (with Frags) led by my Reclusiarch. There goes half that squad.

Arex

11/27/2011 05:09:18 pm

IMO, we can do some better with a gunline list in a small combat.

My list:
HQ:
* Castellan w/ Combi-Melta, Holy Orbs of Antioch, Krak [92]

TROOPS:
* Crusader Squad (5 Initiates) w/ 3 Bolter, Plasmagun, and Lascannon.[101]
* Crusader Squad (5 Initiates) w/ 3 Bolters, Plasmagun, and Missile Launcher. [96]

FAST ATTACK:
* Land Speeder Typhoon. [70]
* Land Speeder Typhoon. [70]
* Land Speeder Typhoon. [70]

Total: 499

Update in 2 months:
* Crusader Squad (5 Initiates) w/ 3 Bolter, Plasmagun, and Lascannon.[101]

Total: 600

11/27/2011 05:35:57 pm

@ Arex

I thought about going that route, as it would best maximize our points at this level, but I also have a little bit of the local meta that I'm playing to. While my list is certainly balanced and I could take it anywhere and probably do well, I do take certain things because of what I know I'll see at the store.

For example, there are several Dark Eldar players who take lots of Venoms in their armies. Both of which would do bad things to foot-based infantry. There is also two IG players, both of whom take Hydras and lots of Heavy Weapons teams. Then there is the Orc and Nid players, with their huge mob armies. The MEQ players are starting to learn from their mistakes against me and are fielding more balanced lists now. But I simply couldn't get away with running a gunline at this low a points here because I can't take any support with it. And I'd either get out-shot or overrun if I swung too far in either direction. :(

12/1/2011 12:03:57 am

@Algesan Whats the point?

12/1/2011 05:03:27 am

For asking? First, because everyone has blind spots. Especially when you are learning how a game system works, but even as an experienced player a n00b can sometimes see the forest while you are looking at the trees.

Second, if people get in the habit of chatting about the games they play, then it promotes a more harmonious environment. People don't worry so much about losing as long as they are learning. Well, most people.

Third, (which may be more important for me), I start learning how other armies work more quickly than merely what I can see. I can ask why X instead of Y or Z and get how the dynamic of a particular codex or type of list from it works so I can counter it.

12/2/2011 08:36:26 am

Great points.

Whats this about again?

12/3/2011 12:32:33 am

Acceptance as a competitive player against preconceptions of competitive = WAAC arsehole.

Improving the local player base to get a better testing bed for your lists.

Learning more.

12/4/2011 03:00:11 pm

Algesan I was inquiring about what you wrote earlier, not the article in general:

@Lucion: That is why you ask first, then they get in the habit of asking back. If need be, you ask them why they did X.

What is this about - what is the point of this message?

12/4/2011 10:46:02 pm

@Lucion

By always asking your opponents how you did at the end of each game, you get your opponents into the habit of looking at the game afterwards and trying to see where either of you made a mistake. Then (ideally) they will start to ask for your opinion on how they did, and you can easily start giving advice in a way that it is not only accepted, but asked for. Even if they don't always ask, simply by getting them to think critically about how you did gives them the chance to learn and then apply that learning to their own game and their own lists.

12/5/2011 12:50:31 am

To speak disparagingly of your opponent for comparison to prove your worth is
vulgar. And worse, it may not reflect reality, no matter how you wish it to
be. It is also not how you build real strength. You build real strength by
honestly taking the best attributes of your opponent and making them even
better in yourself. This is more tangible, productive, and beneficial. Even
if you have no foundation at all, if you start there, you can eventually out-
compete anyone.

Spartans didnt become Spartans by sparring for nothing.

12/5/2011 05:02:40 pm

It isn't speaking disparagingly of your opponent when the comment is asked for, unless you choose to be an arse about it, but that would be a deliberate choice. For example, by being vulgar and using this chance for honest & friendly commentary on the game instead as a crowing session over a defeated opponent.

The "hot wash" is something I learned in the military. If we want to get all formal about it, then it should include the top three strengths (what was done right) and the top three deficiencies (what needs to be improved on most). It should be conducted as soon as possible after the event to lay the groundwork for the "after action review" to produce the "lessons learned" document.

In the military it is a mindset and a good commander uses it religiously to get past the "white wash" of deficiencies and desire to lay blame elsewhere besides the responsible party. You know, things like "I had bad dice", "He had hot dice", "It's all the terrain's fault", "He played too fast/slow", "He had a cheesy list", etc.

I've worked to establish a casual rapport with others I play with at store games. The usual way is for me to invite them to discuss my play "disparagingly" with a view to giving me advice to improve my play. It may help me that in my circle of local players I have multiple ex-military and serving military members so that the concept of non-adversarial critiques based on personal opinion and observation isn't something new.

No, I'm not an uber player, so I'm not going to be shocked at not playing on the top tables or in the top tier when I got to NOVA 2012, but I guarantee that this method, initiated by me to my opponents, has worked me through a bunch of n00b mistakes that would have taken much longer than it has and it will give me a better place in the tournament than I'd have had without it.

Remember, this is a honest mindset with me, I want to know my mistakes so I can correct them and give my opponents a better game. Oh, and having done a bit of martial training in the past, the second part of the sparring is the opponent telling you that you are dropping your guard when you make a certain strike. Which why you are now sporting a series of overlapping bruises in a small area of your body.

Left to myself, I would have wasted time trying to get faster or abandoned that strike. The correct response, given the information from my opponent was to improve my form.

12/6/2011 01:06:37 am

One might imagine it requires deliberate effort and sound
decision-making in order to go through the hotwash/action review of my 3 top strengths and weaknesses after the game.

Blaming it on the dice, getting into the comfort of saying " he was lucky ", neglects of strength of taking responsibility, in a nutshell - I think it is denial.

This also applies to what I find with painting. Infact - taking the comfort of blaming anyone else, a person, the model, the dice. How many times have people blamed someone else for their position?

When I began painting I found that closely looking at pictures of models that did not sell revealed alot.

I saw my noob mistakes in the mirror.
I didnt follow an action plan, but naturally I improved my form - I had too.

I am curious what kind of action review we might use in our games to improve our form. Are there 3 top strengths and deficiencies which could be a useful map to help players?

Is 3 strengths and 3 weakness's the right way to do this for gaming?

Should a different model be established to elucidate the mindset of a good commander in the aspiring decision makers of the future? That is a worthy cause.

12/6/2011 03:23:18 pm

Remember that the format of three and three is from the military where the hot wash is an institution. Across a game table, I don't look for such structure, but instead for the primary observations of my opponent.

The first such observation made to me when I asked: "You are splitting up too much, Marines need to be closer together to work well." When I pointed out I was covered by shooting ranges: "Yes, but my army is better at moving and assaulting, so I can close up and swarm your individual units because they aren't in effective counter charge range."

Simple observation, but the train of thought that resulted from it improved how I handle my units and their deployment by Drop Pod.

12/7/2011 03:27:28 am

Yes. I need to get in the habit of asking for the other players observation of what I did wrong.

Been winning alot at Dow2 recently, when I hit a loss it comes as a shock. The immediate impulse is to leave, and not question.

Luckily one can save replays and watch them again.

Lost today - messed up the start, suppose I wasnt close together, things got spread out, wrong wargear too. Difficult terrain for space marine too (lots of cover for sneaky eldar)

Escalation League Update: Increasing the points!

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