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5/2/2013

So I decided I would finally post up the list I created a while back, shortly after the Death From the Skies supplement was released. The list has done exceptionally well in its games, having similar results as my BT/IG hybrid Templarbubble list. I think this list plays pretty straight forward, at least if you've already seen the analysis I've already given on the Templarbubble. Charge forward as quickly as you can with your EC-led Assault Terminator squad, with the rest of your forces laying down fire support. Advance right behind and/or to the flanks of your force with the Vindicators and blast away. The Stormtalons are there for AA defense, but they can do a reasonable job at both AI and AT with the Strafing Run rules. If you have questions, pop them my way.

HQ:
* Marshal {Warlord} w/ Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield, Terminator Armor, and Tank Hunters; 1 Terminator Command Squad Sword Brethren w/ Storm Bolter, Power Fist, and Tank-Hunters; 2 Sword Brethren w/ Cyclone Missile Launchers, Storm Bolters, Power Fists, and Tank-Hunters; 1 Sergeant w/ Power Sword, Storm Bolter, and Tank-Hunters. [375]
* Emperor's Champion w/ Black Sword, Bolt Pistol, Armor of Faith, and the Vow: "Abhor the Witch, Destroy the Witch." [110]

Elites:
* Sword Brethren Terminators: 7 Assault Terminators w/ 4 Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields & 3 Pairs of Lightning Claws. [280]

Troops:
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Multi-Melta. Mounted in a Rhino. [146]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Multi-Melta. Mounted in a Rhino. [146]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Multi-Melta. Mounted in a Rhino. [146]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Multi-Melta. Mounted in a Rhino. [146]

Fast Attack:
* Stormtalon Gunship w/ TL-Assault Cannon and Skyhammer Missile Launcher. [125]
* Stormtalon Gunship w/ TL-Assault Cannon and Skyhammer Missile Launcher. [125]

Heavy Support:
* Vindicator w/ Demolisher Cannon and Storm Bolter. [125]
* Vindicator w/ Demolisher Cannon and Storm Bolter. [125]

Total Points: [1849]

Obviously, this is a list tuned for 1850 points. It is even pure Black Templars, for those that prefer that over the use of allies. That seems to be where the GT scene is going, to avoid the farce that is the double-detachment at 2000 points. I guess it doesn't matter to me all that much, but I will admit, it is sometimes hard to pull 150 points from my 2k lists. Anyway, if you're going to a 2k event and you'd like to try this list, simply add an identical 5th Crusader squad and give one of your CML terminators a chainfist. That should give you exactly 2k points.

What does the list currently feature? 2 Skyhammer Missile Launchers, 4 Missile Launchers (Tank-Hunters), 4 Multi-Meltas, 2 Demolisher Cannons, 2 TL-Assault Cannons, and 4 Plasmaguns. A good deal of low-AP weaponry, in both AT and AI format, plus the normal AI weaponry. As a note, I opted for the Stormtalons over the Stormraven primarily for redundancy reasons. While I still believe the Stormraven is a better flyer, it comes at a fairly hefty price tag and two flyers is often better than one. Redundancy, redundancy, redundancy! ;)

15 Comments

Algesan

5/3/2013 09:57:42 am

I agree two ST are better than one SR for all comers lists unless you have a specific (transport) duty for the SR to perform.

I'd go 5/2 on the Assault Terminators, 2 TLC Terminators are more than enough to do the shred a Tactical squad thing, especially with the two extra TH/SS Terminators in the mix and it gives one extra 3++.

Low scoring unit count has a big potential to bite you on the butt in a NOVA format. Among one of the reasons for four of my losses....not enough troops because four just doesn't cut it for reliability. I was having to lunge forward with a unit that should have been shooting instead simply because of a failed morale check somewhere.

Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link

5/5/2013 09:46:19 am

To be honest, ever since I started playing with the 4/3 setup on the Assault Terminators, I've seen again and again the versatility the unit has, particularly against shooting. By having the unit in this configuration, it gives me options in the way of formation and wound allocation without "damaging" the unit's output. You're right about needing only 2 LC's, but by having a third...I basically get a swing wound if I'm unlucky and get shot from the flank.

As far as the Troops situation, I had a very similar setup last year and it worked perfectly. I did have 5 troops, but it was also 150 more points to play with. It should be noted that there are two different missions at Nova that make use of FA/HS as scoring units. And I have 250 points in each slot, which will ease the burden significantly. There is also the change to Table Quarters this year and how a person goes about capturing/contesting one. Meaning, even if my HQ/Elites/FA/HS/Transports don't score, they DO provide contest "points". An excellent change. A risk to run only 4 5-man squads? Absolutely. But is it a large and unreasonable one? I don't believe so. :D

urkh

5/3/2013 04:44:50 pm

So, I've personally been trying to decide on what is the best weapon for my new stormtalon. I see here that you've chosen the skyhammer missile launcher. May I ask why you chose this? I bought my stormtalon as a way to try to combat my brother's hell drake, as I cannot afford a storm raven. Would you still go with the Skyhammer in this scenario, or would you pick a different weapon?

Elsus

5/3/2013 06:47:49 pm

Skyhammer because it is cheap in points cost, provides the number of shots needed to knock off hull points and wound FMC/MC's if needed.

On a side note, I never had luck with using MM bunkers. The enemy would rarely get in my 12" melta range and if they are, it's too late already. If you are shooting the MM at 24" then wouldnt it be better to have missile launcher bunkers and start shooting at turn 1 instead?

5/4/2013 04:28:46 pm

How reliable to do you find the S7 of a skyhammer to be against the AV12 helldrake, needing 5's just to glance? I realize I'm probably bringing the wrong tool for the job, but it's what I can afford at the time, so it's what I have to work with. Even with three shot's though, I'll most likely get one, and will get two glances if I'm lucky. The lascannon, while more expensive, will give me the glances/pens more often, even though it only has one shot (albeit twin-linked). So overall, I feel like it's basically evened out on the front, but there's also the plus that the lascannon gets +1 on vehicle damage rolls. So would you still go with the skyhammer over another weapon?

5/5/2013 07:14:09 am

In terms of reliability, it is not as much as I am comfortable with because you rely on quantity over quality (LC or typhoon missiles).

You will also have to rely on the TL-AC for more HP removal.

I will still choose Skyhammer because of the low points and versatility. And with versatility it means the ability of dealing with things I need my talon to deal with that the rest of my army have trouble with. And that would be FMC (nids, daemon princes with wings, all the new flying greater daemons).

All of those would require my utmost attention to deal with early on. If I don't have the right tools then the game is most likely over if they charge into my lines with full wounds.

Of course you can still equip lc or typh if you know what you will be up against, but I tend to prefer not to list tailor my units. Instead I'll try to give each unit a few purpose. Example: my pair of ST with Sky hammers would be to ground FMC or wound MC, air control, and then lower priority would be AI/light transport if needed.

On a side note, I always magnetize my weapon options just in case :)

Cheers,
Elsus/Oreo

5/5/2013 10:19:01 am

A common misconception that many opponents and readers have is that the troops actually "give" me something beyond scoring potential. Beyond giving me the capability to deal with AV14 (which is why I don't take Missile Launchers), anything they do is just extra. They could not kill anything all game (they do though) and it would matter little to how the list performs on the battlefield. More times than not, my opponent spends valuable time trying to kill them when the nasty stuff is coming straight at them. Besides, I often hide them behind terrain anyway until its time to maneuver to where I need them. ;)

Marshal Laeorth (Admin) link

5/5/2013 10:14:27 am

Elsus has the right of it: It primarily comes down to cost. I don't feel the Stormtalon is worth it at 140 points, to be quite frank with you. Its just not durable enough, nor has the damage potential, to justify its cost. He also brings up the point regarding MCs...torrent of fire is much more important than quality fire against them (against hordes as well). And Strafing Run benefits from additional shots.

Algesan was correct though, each Stormtalon with the above setup does damage to 1.259 hull points per turn against AV12 Flyers. They have a 16.924% chance to blow it up. The TL-AC/TL-LC setup kills 1.185 hull points per turn against AV12 and has a 24.331% chance to blow it up. In my opinion? The 15 points each is not worth it when you consider the lack of impact the TL-LC has against MCs and infantry.

Urkh

5/5/2013 07:38:57 pm

Alright guys, thanks for the replies. I currently have the Lascannons equipped on my Talon, but I'll test out the missiles next time I get the chance.

5/5/2013 09:33:10 am

Here is an alternate list that fits the same overall theme:

HQ:
* Marshal {Warlord} w/ Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield, Terminator Armor, and Tank Hunters; 1 Terminator Command Squad Sword Brethren w/ Storm Bolter, Power Fist, and Tank-Hunters; 2 Sword Brethren w/ Cyclone Missile Launchers, Storm Bolters, Power Fists, and Tank-Hunters; 1 Sergeant w/ Power Sword, Storm Bolter, and Tank-Hunters. [375]
* Emperor's Champion w/ Black Sword, Bolt Pistol, Armor of Faith, and the Vow: "Abhor the Witch, Destroy the Witch." [110]

Elites:
* Sword Brethren Terminators: 7 Assault Terminators w/ 4 Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields & 3 Pairs of Lightning Claws. [280]

Troops:
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Multi-Melta; 2 Neophytes w/ 2 Bolt Pistols & Close Combat Weapons. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [146]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Multi-Melta; 2 Neophytes w/ 2 Bolt Pistols & Close Combat Weapons. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [146]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Multi-Melta; 2 Neophytes w/ 2 Bolt Pistols & Close Combat Weapons. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [146]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Multi-Melta; 1 Neophytes w/ Bolt Pistol & Close Combat Weapon. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [136]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Multi-Melta; 1 Neophytes w/ Bolt Pistol & Close Combat Weapon. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [136]

Fast Attack:
* Stormtalon Gunship w/ TL-Assault Cannon and Skyhammer Missile Launcher. [125]
* Stormtalon Gunship w/ TL-Assault Cannon and Skyhammer Missile Launcher. [125]
* Stormtalon Gunship w/ TL-Assault Cannon and Skyhammer Missile Launcher. [125]

Total Points: [1850]

Pretty much the same list, but added a third Stormtalon to the list to match the Drop Pod theme. Also bulked up the troops slightly, to give them more "value". The DP nature of the list is helpful with this year's mission setup, but you still have to be mindful of GKs. With that being said, the new list misses the damage potential of the Vindicators.

Algesan link

5/7/2013 02:08:14 am

Old 1850 list that did the same swap for 'Talons from LS-Typhoons and updated a few issues (like TDA on the Castellan).

1 Emperor's Champion – ATW [110]
1 Dreadnought (TLLC/HF/DCCW) [135]
1Terminator (2xCyclone ML/SB/PF, 3xSB/PF, TH) [265]
3 Crusader (5/0, Melta, Pod-SB) [360]
1Crusader (5/1, Melta, Pod-SB) [130]
3 Stormtalon Gunship (AssCan/SWML) [375]
1 Castellan, SS/Paxe/TDA, Tank Hunter) [123]
1Terminator Cmd (2xCML/SB/PF, SB/PF, SS/PW) TH [237]
Total [1735]

I can almost squeeze another Crusader squad in there, or make the Dread back into Ven/TH.

5/9/2013 07:49:32 am

BTW, what is it that prevents you from taking PotMS on a Vindicator? I remember you mentioning something about not being able to shoot, but I don't see where in the rules it says so.

Moving at cruising speed, Vindi is "all other vehicles" so gets to fire 0 weapons at full ballistic skill (pg 150, chart), the general Vehicles rules makes a distinction between "firing at full BS" as opposed to Snapshots (pg 71, right column, second bullet.

Yep, that kills the idea of firing the Demolisher Cannon if moving over 6"...except, PotMS states "fire one more weapon at full BS" (pg 40), so that 0 + 1 = 1 weapon fired normally "at full BS". No snapshots involved. Well, unless you buy a spare weapon for it...

Brendan O'Mahony

5/10/2013 02:10:27 am

In the first list above,how do you plan on using the termies? Deep striking or footslogging? And would you start the Stormtalons in reserve?

5/10/2013 05:30:39 pm

Stormtalons can never start the game on the board turn 1.. They are flyers :(

5/13/2013 08:10:32 am

Sorry about the late reply, on vacation and limited internet use happening. lol! Anyway, Elsus is correct...Stormtalons are flyers, so they have to go into reserve.

As for the Terminators, since I didn't really specify in the article, I'll happily explain it a little bit more for you. The Emperor's Champion is actually attached to that unit to eat Challenges. Thus, they walk to where they need to go. Honestly, with deployment/Abhor the Witch/running/variable charge ranges/Righteous Zeal...the terminators very rarely not get to a target by the end of my turn two. And they are extremely effective at blocking advancing enemy troops, or at the very least, demanding a response. I figured, why take a Land Raider when I can take more dudes and stick in an IC that I have to take anyway, to bulk up numbers? They definitely get where they need to with relative safety. ;)

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