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3/23/2011

I know its been a few days since my last update. I've tried to stay on top of the comments as best as I can, but now its time to make an update. Topics for articles have been a little short lately, especially with my mind on the coming Nova Open event (*hint hint*). Yes, its like 5 months away. Shhh. ;)

But anyway, I have something that I want to try. I'm not sure how its going to work, but it involves another list. But it won't entirely be mine. I'll leave it at that for now, because I need to figure out how I'm going to go about accomplishing the task. :D

Just wanted to let ya'll know that I'm still here and you'll see updates from me shortly.

24 Comments

Algesan link

3/23/2011 05:13:13 pm

Not enough to talk about? How about a breakdown of Helbrecht and Grimaldus for the new FAQ?

Helbrecht: Yes, he might be pricey, but even without the extra wound and attack in his stats, you cannot buy a Marshall with that combination of gear for that price. Too many points? Could be that, but you also get a 16 point price saving on having a Standard Bearer since he can use a Neophyte plus buy the Banner cheaper than normal. Also a nice way for a bulked up Command Squad.

Grimaldus: Okay, he is not such a bargain as a base unit, unless...

"...that carry the last surviving relics of..."

He comes with three Cenobytes carrying relics. Three relics.

"..., so long as at least one is alive, Grimaldus counts as having a holy relic...)

Which could be read that as long as Grimaldus and one of his Cenobytes are on the board, he can keep popping a holy relic every turn giving +1A to all Space Marines within a 2D6" radius.

loquacious

3/23/2011 11:54:33 pm

Um...not to sound dumb, but I have pretty much ignored either Helbrecht and or Grimmy because of cost.

Should I not? I really don't understand them.

Algesan link

3/24/2011 12:21:45 am

You might want to, most of us have. I've just been piddling around with them of and on to see exactly why they are so bad, besides the fact that they are a lot of points that can be instakilled.

Helbrecht is worth 18 points more than a regular Marshall with the same gear and the sword is better than another master crafted power weapon. Notice I'm not addressing the issue of whether or not you or I would buy that gear.

Grimaldus is worth 30 points less than a Reclusiarch built normally with just one holy relic (technically only 5 points less since Grim doesn't need to buy a Standard Bearer(, but he has Zeal in 6" (instead of just his squad) and his special extra wound skill.

So the determination of whether or not that reads to be a holy relic at all times or not determines how cost effective it would be.

Cory

3/24/2011 01:34:09 am

Pretty sure the 3 relic loophole is addressed in the FAQ

Algesan link

3/24/2011 02:07:44 am

Actually, it doesn't. The funny thing is, it isn't a three relic loophole, since he has one as long as he has a Cenobyte left, it is a relic to show every turn the game lasts loophole...

Devjon

3/24/2011 02:44:08 am

Sorry to burst your bubble Algesian, but each Holy Relic can only be used once per battle. The Cenobyte Retinue that Grimaldus gets counts as him having a Holy Relic as long as one is alive. So if you use the one they carry, then that is its use for the battle.

But you can equip a standard bearer with another Holy Relic so that you have two total uses in his squad.

Algesan link

3/24/2011 05:18:02 am

Where does it say that? It's not listed as such in the rules or FAQ, isn't as slick as the hair splitting interpretation between "lead" and "attached" for BT HQs not having to buy Terminator Armor to lead Terminator Command Squads, and happens to be a whole lot better than the justification for the fearless CC exploit.

The character, as listed, is grossly overpriced for what it has with only one relic available. Having one to reveal each turn is no more wonky than paying 130 points for a HQ that is 10 points less than it would take me to equip a comparable Marshal, that allows buying up to 9 Terminator squads and count at least 6 of them as scoring units. Oh, and lest we forget, allows skipping the advanced pricing so that what would cost 55 only costs 25 points. Wheee, and I get happy about saving 16 points on flag things with the High Marshal.

Yes the Standard Bearer model could carry one (cost +55 points), and as the rule on holy relics says, "that model" can choose to reveal its relic for the bonus. Grimaldus' rule only notes that the Standard Bearer is not excluded from carrying one.

Of course, regardless of the disposition of Grimaldus' relic count, this then brings up the question of what happens if both Grimaldus and a Standard Bearer both reveal a relic in the same player turn. +2 Attacks for each model within 2d6" of each relic revealing model?

Of course, if the "Dev" in "Devjon" means GW Developer, then I'm sure you will post the newly annotated BT FAQ link back here for us to see the change. Which would actually be amusing for me, but I'll explain that if you can give us a link.

FYI, I'm not running an army centered around Grimaldus and hadn't planned on it. This was just a thought to bring some useful purpose to an otherwise grossly overpriced and badly equipped named character. +1A within 2d6" as long as one of three 4+ models or one 3+/4++ model is on the table, not too bad in some builds for all those points. Anyway, unless we get that link, I'm going to wait on the blog owner's comment.

Devjon

3/24/2011 06:11:50 am

No, Dev does not stand for anything. :)

As for the Holy Relic rules: page 28, Holy Relic section, near the end of sentence 2; and page 47, Cenobyte Retinue section, sentence 2. Nowhere does it say (that I've found, admittedly) that each servitor has a Holy Relic. What it says is that as long as one servitor lives, Grimaldus counts as having a Holy Relic. Thus, it would not be the servitor who uses the relic but Grimaldus.

And I can't find where it says that you can take Terminators as Troops in Helbrecht's section. So if you could point it out to me that would be awesome. (What's not to like about making a list with 112 figures in Terminator armor to count up the cost?)

Also, so far as I know the only mention that any FAQ makes about these guys is a clarification about Only in Death Does Duty End.

Algesan link

3/24/2011 10:22:17 am

Ah, that is Dark Angel's Deathwing. Sorry just got loaned a copy. Belial stats out as a Marshal and has Terminator Armor, Storm Bolter & master Crafted PW. To build that would cost 140 points, Belial costs 130. He also gives the ability to buy a 25 point banner that has the closest equivalent is our Chapter Banner, but better since it gives the same 12" morale effect and instead of Counterattack one turn, the Deathwing Banner gives +1 Attacks to its unit at all times. We'd have to pay 50 points for a lesser effect. He also makes Terminators into Troop choices _plus_ Elite, so 9 possible slots, although that is going over 2k even if no extra options are taken. Plus several other side benefits that can be taken if the points are there.

All for 130 points (cheaper even than a Dark Angels company commander) that opens up. Bonus pricing plus big benefits, so while I used to think the same as you did about Grimaldus and the relic(s), I beginning to think it isn't abusive at all. You simply get what you pay for.

BigDunc

3/24/2011 10:54:42 am

Devjon has it right. "... a holy relic" seems pretty.... singular.

Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link

3/24/2011 07:33:42 pm

Regarding our special characters, I'll see what I can do about that. I think somewhere along the line I was going to do an article on them, but forgot to. So I'll make sure to write it down this time. And I'll see what I can do about getting up an article on it. ;)

As for the Grimaldus' holy relic thing, I play it as a single holy relic. Primarily for the reason BigDunc provided. But I CAN see where the argument having multiple relics came from. I guess I really didn't put much thought into it due to their costs.

Btw. The idea I had is going to be shelved for a bit until I figure out how to accomplish the task. In its rawest form, it wouldn't work how I wanted it to. I'll let you know if something changes.

Devjon

3/25/2011 03:59:26 am

I can't wait to know what The Idea is. And there you go, some discussion has come about with positive results.

Algesan link

3/25/2011 06:35:03 am

OTOH, "counts as having a holy relic" can also refer to only having one to reveal at any turn. I don't see any reason why a player with two relics cannot show them both at the same time and confer the +1A to all within 2D6" with any models falling in both areas of effect gaining +2A for the ensuing turn.

I was thinking of it as only one, although I noticed the three, but simply tossed it out since Grimaldus is obviously so horribly overpriced, but he is only horribly overpriced if you are only allowed one relic.

Helbrecht isn't bad, he is just expensive at 175 points compared to 193 points to recreate with a Marshal. Well, mostly recreate, he has an extra wound and gets the +D3 attacks in the first round of any assault. So he can be considered somewhat of a bargain for the price. Then you get the added benefit of a cheaper Standard Bearer if you want one, plus the ability to not only plug in a few Neophytes, but to also give them Furious Charge.

Grimaldus with one relic to show is simply overpriced trash. The only way to even begin to cover his costs is the multiple relics as long as the squishier Cenobytes are around. Otherwise he is just an over equipped Reclusiarch.

Comparing this to named characters in other codices, for the ones I've looked at, they are fairly clearly cheaper than building one from a base figure plus provide benefits, including some that have an always on 12" +1A. This isn't true for all named, since some come with indefinable abilities, the ones with 3d Edition fielding a lot of these.

Anyway, I did have a bit of fun with this discussion building a 2k list that can all deploy on the board in Dawn of War. Helbrecht + Command Squad + packed to the gills LRC = 743 points.

<a href="http://algesansblog.weebly.com/2/post/2011/03/stylin-pimp-ride-list.html">Testing something</a>

Algesan link

3/25/2011 06:37:09 am

Darn, cannot use standard HTML tags.

BigDunc

3/25/2011 10:34:53 am

Well, in DOW transports count as their own HQ or Troop choice, which means you would not be able to deploy Helbrecht with his LRC. It would have to be him (and the Cmd Squad) OR the LRC, but not both.

As for Holy Relics, I agree that you can pop both at the same time and give yourself +2 attacks. What I don't agree with is that Grimaldus has more than one holy relic. Think of it this way, can you take two Holy Orbs? No. Same goes for Holy Relics. Generally, a model can't carry duplicate wargear and that's what your suggesting.

I like Grimaldus, but he's tough to make full use of in a list. His coolest feature is the 6" radius of Unmatched Zeal. This allows multiple units around Grimmy to have Fearless AND the ability to zeal in any direction. That can be very useful. So, one way to look at Grimaldus' cost is that he takes the place of 2-3 Chaplains in terms of Unmatched Zeal. When looked at that way he's not so expensive.

Devjon

3/25/2011 03:01:15 pm

In addition, while he may be overpriced compared to other codices, he is actually a deal. To make a Reclusiarch with the same equipment would cost 170 plus the cost of a command squad with a holy relic at a minimum of 135 more points.

Grimaldus does the same thing for 195 points, adding 80 for the Command Squad. Plus the increased range from his Unmatched Zeal, his Only in Death Does Duty End special rule, and an extra attack.

And you don't even need the Command Squad. You're paying 25 points for what is normally 55 points.

Or you can spend the absolute minimum to get a Holy Relic and 3 Servitors for 255. Take out the 80 spent on other guys and you have 175. Cheaper than Grimaldus but not nearly as good along with them being a point sink that rivals Terminators in all except effectiveness and survivability, but that's getting into the worthiness of taking a Chaplain at all.

Now, this does not mean that he's worth taking instead of any other Chaplain, nor that he can boast as well as the other codices' special characters. But if you want a chaplain with a holy relic then it is worth looking at him seriously.

I do see how 'so long as at least one still lives...having a holy relic' can be seen as a fresh use each turn. Especially if you consider that, once used, a Holy Relic is gone (as opposed to simply unusable). But that is not directly mentioned and not obvious enough to accept without expecting Games Workshop to make a note of such specifically.

Algesan link

3/26/2011 04:46:35 pm

@Devjon - I thought of the same thing after I posted, that the "savings" could be justified as getting a holy relic without paying for the command squad, which could be useful.

The parsing goes that if the relic is gone after use, but as long as Grimaldus has a Cenobyte he always counts as having a relic, then he "always" has one to show as long as he had a Cenobyte. A little tight on the parsing, but beats the heck out of some of the "wisdom" I've read for interpreting rules, including the "lead" vs "attached" Marshal Laeroth cited for not having to buy Terminator armor.

@BigDunc - ?? Okay, I see where you got that from reading the example in the Dawn of War box and the bit on page 92, but that is contra just about everything else and actually is truly perverse. That list officially has 2 HQ choices and two troop choices.

Parsing that, Helbrecht must be deployed with squad (bunch of rules on that one) so his LRC that is the designated transport for the squad can never be deployed with him and by the same logic, both of the other two squads would be the only deployment choice as they consist of attached IC (both are HQ) plus the squad, plus their transport.

I'm not going there tonight, I think you have found one of the truly stupid rules. The general solution, if I actually ever ponied up for three LRC and all those scout bodies for my Neophytes, would be that everyone comes in off the edge on turn 1.

BigDunc

3/27/2011 02:00:40 pm

As stupid or perverse as it may be, those are the deployment rules for DoW.

Algesan link

3/29/2011 02:34:09 am

Yes they are. Never read them closely since I've intentionally never played them and only rolled the last two games I played (getting pitched battle both times).

I've thought about it some more and the logic escapes me for them, _except_ for play balance purposes, to prevent a list like that one I whipped up from being able to slam 2k down on the field all at once. OTOH, I don't think it is that sick a list, but if it worked and you could slam into the enemy fast, it wouldn't be pretty for them.

BigDunc

3/29/2011 04:18:57 am

I think it's exactly that, balance purposes. That and it's supposed to be a limited deployment scenario.

Algesan link

3/30/2011 12:55:54 am

The game appears to reward efficient list builders and it takes away from that. Now, I don't know all the codices, so there might be some that can slap that kind of list together and have it nastier, but I wouldn't object to facing that list as I thought it would deploy with either my deep strike lists or Laeroth's mech lists. I don't say it would be pretty, but I think I could beat it.

Quick question: are you aware of any other time when the designated transport is treated as a second unit or that it being treated as a second unit matters?

Devjon

3/30/2011 05:04:45 am

Pg. 92, Multiple Unit Choices: "include several units at the cost of a single force organization slot (like dedicated transports, etc.). Apart from being bought as a single choice, these units operate and count as separate units in all respects."

So...Annihilation is one place that it matters, target selection is another, and once the cargo has disembarked (it can pick up other units now). It is always treated as a second unit.

But, that being said, I believe that you can start the game in your transport, on the table, as long as the unit's description specifically allows it to take the transport. It is a different unit, but a Rhino for a Crusader Squad still counts as one Troop choice and a Land Raider Crusader for an Assault Terminator Squad still counts as one Elite Choice.

BigDunc

3/30/2011 12:33:47 pm

Yea, Kill Points was the big one I was thinking of, but I need to remember pg92 in the future.

Algesan link

4/1/2011 12:55:43 am

Yeah, Kill Points have always been that way. I was thinking of for deployment or other treatments.

The text on page 92 about "Multiple Unit Choices" differentiates them for this, and in the example on page 93 for DoW it lists the Troop squad as one Troop choice and their designated transport as a second "Troop" squad. Despite my opinion on it, I think BigDunc is correct, they make this distinction here to prevent a list like the one I whipped up from dropping the entire army on the field since it was technically 1 HQ and 2 Troop choices.

I'm alive, I promise!

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