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Introspection: List Building Tendencies!

7/20/2017

5 Comments

 
Hey everyone.  Today I want to talk about something that affects us all: bias in our list building.  Everyone does it, at least sub-consciously, to some extent.  Whenever we build a list, we're tailoring that army to our desires and needs in the Warhammer 40k game.  Whether that happens to be a preference towards close combat, shooting, or perhaps heavy mechanization, we're putting a force on the board that uses our play-style.  But the question is, are we allowing that bias to block our view of the better choices in our codices?

For the sake of discussion, we'll use me as our example.  I build competitive lists.  Put another way, the lists that I build take whatever form is necessary to create an effective Grand Tournament army against all-comers.  So I lean away from all the sub-optimal choices in a codex in lieu of ones that give me the necessary pieces to create a balanced list.  There are many ways to do this and I won't get into them here.  However, because of my stance on competitive lists, I very rarely use thematic units or armies.  I also tend to stay away from close combat as the main focus for our Black Templars lists, instead utilizing it as a strategic tool to win games.  So, as you can see, I have some bias.

How does this show up in my lists?  Well, the most obvious one is the fact that I've built and used a BT gunline list to great success.  So successful in fact, that I am considered the architect of that style of list.  Other players have emulated the list over the years and produced similar results.  The list focused almost entirely on the shooting phase to win games.  Pin the opponent in their deployment zone, then use a combination of mobility and overwhelming firepower to win games.  Nova Open and other GT's presented me with an unique problem however;  there were large amounts of line of sight blocking terrain.  It prevented me from playing in the typical manner and thus, the gunline list suffered.

But that isn't the only tendency that I follow.  My lists will, more times than not, feature massive MSU in my unit choices.  I strongly believe that an overwhelming presence gives you many more tactical opportunities on the battlefield and presents a challenge to your opponent.  Even the most powerful list will have difficulties eliminating or neutralizing every last unit you have when there are a great many of them on the board.  Adversely, if you have few units, your enemy only has to allocate a small portion of their resources to eliminating each.  I'm not really going to discuss the KP discussion point here, but I believe it to irrelevant in most tournament environments (i.e. Nova Open, ITC).

So this brings us back to square one:  is this hurting my ability to field better units in my army?  I want to say that everyone, including myself, will say that they have an open mind and would choose the best tool for the job.  But I think that assumption would be overly optimistic.  With 8th Edition released and a new codex on the way, we get to hit the reset button on a lot of our long-held list building tendencies.  And I guess I am happy about that.

What do you do with your lists?  Do you have tendencies that you follow?  Are they rooted in fluff or competitive reasons?  If you're losing and don't like it, is changing some of your preferences an option?  Let's hear some of the self-analysis here.
5 Comments
gleesbian69
7/21/2017 06:54:21 am

I'm a terrible list builder. I've won about half of my games (granted, I've played around 10-20. Total. Including 7th). Mostly I enjoy the models, but I'm also a terrible painter, so I've got a bunch of black-painted models running around.

Those details aside, probably the thing that sticks out the most to me is I get attached to a few core models and am unable to build an army without them. For instance, I love this standard metal dreadnought w/AC and power fist I've had since 8th grade (16 years ago!). I also really enjoy a converted captain I built to include a Thunder hammer/storm shield, so I can't NOT include them. Also, predators. I love tanks. So everytime I build a list, I always include those three things.

Another problem I have is duplication. I don't have enough models to really "spam" anything, but I hate taking one-off units because I'm convinced they'll be tanked on turn 1, so always take at least 2 of a thing. Which, as you can imagine, really reduces my flexibility in army construction.

Reply
Marshal Laeroth (Admin)
7/21/2017 07:17:11 pm

Haha. List building comes with practice. Its one of my favorite things about the game. I can spend hours building lists. Sometimes its nice to build lists for something to strive towards -- or even use proxies to playtest different armies before you buy. But I am also in your camp...I love the models and the look of a painted miniature, but I very much dislike the hobby part of it. Not so much because I'm bad at it, but more so the time and effort. Takes a lot of work. lol.

Wow. An old miniature. I had one of them once upon a day, before I liquified a lot of the 2nd-3rd Edition models I had. In my experience, using models a player likes is one of the biggest bias in list building that occurs. Often it creates inefficiencies in your list. For example, the metal dreadnought you have did not have a lot of lists where it was an optimal choice (Drop Pods lists used them though). However, this is not always the case. Sometimes these favorite units are actually serviceable selections in the codex. But just recognizing the fact that we have the bias is sometimes enough to give you time to think through tactics you need to utilize to get around those choices. Instead of easily beating someone, you'll have to work a bit harder for it. For some people, that gives more enjoyment in a game.

Redundancy is NEVER a bad thing. Just so you know. ;)

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Gerhard
7/24/2017 12:54:28 am

List building. I have to say I am quite biased I think. I really like Vanguard Veterans and as such try to have them in my lists one way or the other. Furthermore I chose Templars for their lore and try to play my lists somewhat in line with that lore. With our new tactics it doesn't look all too bad either. Heres what I came up with a few weeks back at the start of 8th. The one thing I need to change is add the EC due to its reduction in points.


++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [89 PL, 1995pts] ++

+ HQ +

Chaplain [6 PL, 97pts]: Jump Pack, Plasma pistol

High Marshal Helbrecht [9 PL, 170pts]

+ Troops +

Crusader Squad [5 PL, 114pts]
. Initiate w/Chainsword
. Initiate w/Chainsword
. Initiate w/Heavy Weapon: Power axe
. Initiate w/Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Sword Brother: Plasma pistol, Thunder hammer

Crusader Squad [5 PL, 114pts]
. Initiate w/Chainsword
. Initiate w/Chainsword
. Initiate w/Heavy Weapon: Power axe
. Initiate w/Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Sword Brother: Plasma pistol, Thunder hammer

Crusader Squad [5 PL, 114pts]
. Initiate w/Chainsword
. Initiate w/Chainsword
. Initiate w/Heavy Weapon: Power axe
. Initiate w/Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Sword Brother: Plasma pistol, Thunder hammer

Crusader Squad [5 PL, 114pts]
. Initiate w/Chainsword
. Initiate w/Chainsword
. Initiate w/Heavy Weapon: Power axe
. Initiate w/Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Sword Brother: Plasma pistol, Thunder hammer

+ Elites +

Terminator Assault Squad [13 PL, 256pts]: Teleport Homer
. Terminator
. . Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield: Storm shield, Thunder hammer
. Terminator
. . Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield: Storm shield, Thunder hammer
. Terminator: Lightning Claw (Pair)
. Terminator: Lightning Claw (Pair)
. Terminator Sergeant
. . Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield: Storm shield, Thunder hammer

Vanguard Veteran Squad [7 PL, 363pts]
. Space Marine Veteran: Storm shield, Thunder hammer
. Space Marine Veteran: Storm shield, Thunder hammer
. Space Marine Veteran: Storm shield, Thunder hammer
. Space Marine Veteran: Storm shield, Thunder hammer
. Space Marine Veteran: 2x Lightning Claw
. Space Marine Veteran: 2x Lightning Claw
. Space Marine Veteran: 2x Lightning Claw
. Space Marine Veteran: 2x Lightning Claw
. Space Marine Veteran: Storm shield, Thunder hammer
. Veteran Sergeant: Relic blade, Storm shield

+ Heavy Support +

Land Raider Crusader [17 PL, 314pts]: 2x Hurricane bolter, Multi-melta, Twin assault cannon

+ Flyer +

Stormtalon Gunship [9 PL, 195pts]: Twin assault cannon, Typhoon missile launcher

+ Dedicated Transport +

Rhino [4 PL, 72pts]: Storm bolter

Rhino [4 PL, 72pts]: Storm bolter

++ Total: [89 PL, 1995pts] ++

Overall I think its normal to be a bit biased. Its fun to win, but it is also fun to play with your favourite units!

Reply
Marshal Laeroth (Admin)
7/27/2017 02:10:37 am

Absolutely! I got into the Black Templars due to their fluff. I actually remember being told that they were rumored way back in 2000, and I was super excited (as a kid) because my favorite part of the game was close combat. So feel a certain affinity to that style of play naturally and I try my best to include it SOMEHOW in my lists. But I am also extremely competitive, so that often overrides things. lol

Reply
Kelvin
8/6/2017 05:14:23 am

I have play BT since 7E (although I join 40K since 5E). And I am so into Honour Guard for their high C/P value (especially their Relic Blade!). I would say they were the top of rank 2 melee unit. (those without invulnerable save).

I had a lot of good times with lists with Emperor's Champion, 5 men honour guard and couple of 5 men plasma cannon + plasma gun crusader squad. I didn't win a lot with this list but I always surprised my opponents of that the shootability of 5 crusader squad and the melee of HG.

However, GW weaken honour guard a lot in 8E. It makes me think a lot about how to use HG in 8E =(

Reply



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