Let's get crackin'!

1/21/2013

All right, as the title states, time to get things moving again. So that means blog posts. Yay! Right? Progress is being made on the BT 101, slow but sure. Not sure if I will have a detailed section on allies/flyers in the 101 or if I should hold off for the 201. Obviously, they will be mentioned, but in much less detail. Anyway...let's get into the topic of tonight's article: troops. Specifically, the Black Templars variety.

By now, most people have read the most recent FAQ for the Black Templars. Let's just say, it wasn't the most pleasant treatment we've ever received. Actually, it caused quite a few problems for our previous builds to be quite frank with you. I'm not going to run it all down for you, so I'm just going to assume you've read it. However, there are a few troop-related things that cause complications when creating a list (remember, this is a competitive viewpoint):

Righteous Zeal
6th Edition transport rules
6th Edition scoring rules

So what does this mean for us? In essence, it means that objectives (the primary goal of 75% of tournament missions) is much more difficult claim. Why? Because one of our main strengths in 5th Edition was the fact that we could take 5-man units, with both special and heavy weapons. This kept our cost down, as we pay a premium on Rhinos. By doing this, we could effectively take 4-6 troops. That gave us maneuverability and tactical options. So what's the big deal?

You can no longer score from the inside of a vehicle, nor do they count its points towards the claiming of the objective. Getting out of our vehicles to claim an objective (nor can we assault from a transport that moves that turn) leaves us extremely vulnerable to incoming enemy shooting. Thus, larger squad sizes are likely needed to compensate for losses. Which brings us to our next problem: Righteous Zeal. For the entire duration of 5th Edition, it was widely agreed amongst players that because this move was a consolidation move, it was an "up to" distance. Meaning, you didn't have to move the full amount on the D6. Now, courtesy of our new FAQ, we are required to move the full distance on the die. Our old fear of being pulled off objectives is now a legitimate one. While their are some tricks to help avoid this, such as placing your unit in a stretched line or making use of Crusader Seals, this isn't always possible. Its also one of the reasons Las/Plas units are going to find less use. They are easy to damage and by doing so, you effectively move them from their position. Add in the fact that there are quite a few Flyers out there now that have some pretty nasty anti-MEQ weaponry (e.g. Heldrakes), then you should be concerned.

What we also know of the new 6th Edition transport rules tells us that taking full sized close combat squads in Rhinos is bad news. Transports prevent you from assaulting the turn you disembark. Unless you're in an assault vehicle. But the only one of those that is applicable is the Land Raider, which makes it too expensive for wide-spread use. Nevertheless, even if we did, the majority of troops out there now are one of two things: A) Better at close combat than we are or B) Designed to be durable tarpits. I'm not going to get into the specifics of that in this post, but without HQ support and numbers, just take my word for it right now.

That leaves us with few non-ally options for troops. You can build larger sized squads (preferably 15+), either footslogging or in a Land Raider Crusader. These squads will certainly need to make use of a Chaplain, as we all know, the re-rolls to hit charging into combat help immensely. It also helps you maintain a certain level of control of your squad by giving them fearless, as well as some direction to your Righteous Zeal. You also have Drop Pod options for your squads, with the squad sizes depending entirely on what you want in your list. Regardless, I don't really feel that those types of squads (i.e. Drop Pod) should be devoted to close combat. You can also take minimally-sized troops in rhinos to use as bunkers. Plasma and Multi-Meltas are good choices here.

But what is most optimal? I tend to believe that each of these types of units have their place in the right lists, but they each do have their pros and cons. How do you know which one to go with? I'm hoping that there will be some community interaction to discuss them and maybe bring up a couple more viable troop options that I may not have thought of. If I don't see any discussion (in comments) in this respect, I'll come back and edit the analysis into this post. I didn't want to write up a novel here in my first post back in a while. Let's hear what you have to say! :D

47 Comments

rdxg83

1/22/2013 01:06:55 pm

Welcome back, sir.

Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link

1/25/2013 11:32:47 am

Thanks! Glad to be back. ;)

Algesan link

1/22/2013 07:09:37 pm

Well, I was never a big one for Rhinos & Razorbacks anyway :)

Okay, yes we got hammered on AACNMTO, RZ, Drop Pod change, HQ tax and a bit on the Allies chart. Like virtually everyone else, we got shafted on the flyer front.

AtW isn't that bad for the price, but it isn't that great and does nothing for our CC capability. Combine that with RZ that forces us to move but still retains the 1" glass wall that leaves us hanging out to dry from shooting. Ouch.

So, we do have the advantage of Las/Plas (or other double combo) in MSU. I don't worry about RZ because taking pot shots at squads trying to trigger RZ as a strategy is a fail, because it isn't reliable. As Allies it would be perfect to stick two squads in Pods...except we have to find two more units to take Pods.

For our big squad...they can be killed by torrent of fire just like everyone else and if you don't have NOVA terrain to hide in, it just gets worse.

Flyers are the ringer, I could work around most of this and field some nifty lists...but we work better as Allies now since, like in 5th with AV14, you must have something to deal with flyers and we don't have it.

So, I say stick with the 5 man squads and forget about the metal box. You only need one squad for Allies anyway. Do I like this? No. Is it the way things are right now? Yep, given 6th plus the female dog slap that is our FAQ.

Yes, I'm still working with my Black Templars, mainly for their triple plasmagun bike squads, THDC Terminator squads and such, but they are going to be an adjunct to a Guard list. Yep, until the Panacea Crusade get the awaited reinforcements from the High Marshall, the High Marshall's Own Imperial Guard Regiment will be shouldering a great deal of the load. Amusing how my fluff joke is working out.

http://algesansblog.weebly.com/2/post/2012/07/a-communique-to-the-high-marshall.html

elotar

1/24/2013 12:28:42 am

I think for BT main there are only two troop choises - 15 dudes with IC in LRC, and 5 dudes with las/plas on foot.

Brother Weiss

1/24/2013 03:03:13 pm

Hey ML, Long time lurker, first time poster,
I have to wonder if it would be wise to have a Half and half squads to keep points down? I mean if we can take 5 3+ bodies and 5 4+ in a squad, why not to hold our back field.
I have to admit its been a tough slog for me (Im the only BT player in our city and i wear it as a badge of pride :) ), I would love to see your competitive templar idea's. Hope it gets my competitive juices going again.
Cheers

1/25/2013 12:45:28 pm

Can you elaborate a little more? It could simply be me fatigued after a long day of work, but it seems you're suggesting the use of 3-man/4-man squads?

1/25/2013 03:12:20 pm

Well we start out base with 5 initates base, instead of filling them out to a full 10 initiates, why not a 5 initaties and 5 or less neophytes in a squad. we can get the 10 bodies to hide in a rhino and we can shave off points here and there.
Not sure how effective it would be, but if we need to get 3+ troops to swamp objectives, we can at least 75ish points to spend else wear. And like you posted down low, heldrakes are becoming more and more popular on the table, so if we need boots on the ground, why spend the extra 6 points to what will get pasted fairly quickly and reliably.
Im not sure how effective or wise this would but, but its another option from the blob or a standard "tac" squad.

1/26/2013 12:58:12 am

Ah, gotcha! Now I see what you're going for. And I agree totally. That is still the best way of creating Crusader squads of a larger size, unless going for the 10+ size squads. There is no need to waste the extra 6 points when you can take a Neophyte to add a few numbers. Even in 5th Edition, we did this for our CC-oriented Crusader squads. So yes, its definitely viable. The only problem lies in how wounds are allocated and removed now. You would have to be extremely careful in the Neophyte's placement or you'll be forced to take a lot of armor saves on potentially the wrong model. :)

Lucion

1/24/2013 03:14:08 pm

Brother Templars could I ask those with some time on their hand to help an aspiring Techmarine with his works? It is of written nature, for orders supporting the community. He would simply need some time checking over his works via the forum. I shall check back in a few days, no rush, but his work has been Honorable and zealous, and where better to ask to count on a matching support guide than IN.

1/25/2013 11:34:45 am

I don't know about others, but I can certainly do my best to try to help.

Samuel

1/27/2013 08:54:22 pm

Marshal Laeroth. Please do not aid Lucion. This man has used me as a tool, stolen my work, and shot me in the back. If you have any concerns regarding my authencity, please reply to me via email at [email protected].

brenomah

1/25/2013 08:43:27 pm

I'd be more than happy to help.

DasPanzerIstUber

1/24/2013 10:49:53 pm

I run pure BT and I have found Crusader Squads to be poor assault choices. High cost, low return. You are often exposed in your approach then suffer overwatch, plus attrition in combat. Leaves them vulnerable in later stages trying to hold an objective.

My troops are now small objective holders that can harrass with heavy weapons. Have them follow in the wake of more effective units such as Terminators or plasma bikes to occupy the cleared territory. It's not perfect but I'm finding these to be tough times for Templars.

Also force the opponent to choose between a weak but scoring unit OR something that will cause a lot of damage to them. Might be seen as wasting shots on the troops since they aren't very dangerous and so they ignore for a while.

3-4 of them at 1500. Most on foot, desperately using cover or whatever means necessary to survive and definately 1 in a Drop Pod or Rhino to get around the board quicker.

Sorry for the essay length comment!

Andhil

1/25/2013 09:05:47 am

I have to say, RZing of an objective has never happened to me. A combination of rushing 15-30 Crusaders in a LRC and on foot, a Vindicator and 8 TH Terminators is a good distraction. (note: we play at 3000pts.) I have made it a point to remember RZ only applies to Infantry that aren't Pinned or have Gone to Ground. That is the key sentence here. If you really need to hold that objective: Go to Ground. You'll take some hits, but your cover (if any) is improved, and your guys won't charge away blindly.

1/25/2013 11:50:57 am

Ah, but you noticed one of the tricks of keeping our forces put! This will be extremely important for us until A) They fix the FAQ or B) release a new codex. It does come at the expense of firing their weaponry/charging, when it might be critical to do so. So it is really dependent on the situation at hand.

1/25/2013 12:34:43 pm

Because everyone can just as easily read the above comments, I'm only going to briefly summarize what I seem to be taking from the posts thus far:

A) Our troops are not worth using in assault
B) Our troops are best either small and on foot, or large and in a LRC.
C) Our troops are best used as ranged support
D) Keep them small, keep them cheap and spend your points on "elite" things to take the pressure off their fragile nature.

I've seen a couple different troop types pop up, but nothing dramatically "new". Though I'm not exactly sure what Brother Weiss was referring to (we'll see soon). One of the most popular mentioned ones so far is the large LRC squad. This is an unit that I feel has potential. But it comes at a cost -- nearly 1/4th or more of your list will be devoted to one squad. Are you comfortable with that? Can you sufficiently support such a squad and create balance in your list? I think its possible, albeit difficult.

The other popular squad type (on several sites) is the 5-man gunline squad. In 5th Edition, I was all over this squad. Even with Kill Them All and Righteous Zeal, it performed great for its points. Now, we have new codices and game mechanics to deal with. The primary one is the one that Algesan touched on: Flyers. Now, I still maintain that you need little anti-flyer defense against the majority of opponents. However, there is one flyer that sticks out as being ultra-powerful now (post-FAQ): the Heldrake and its Baleflamer. Why? Because it absolutely decimates the most popular army-type out there: MEQ. Cover doesn't help you and if you don't have dedicated anti-flyer weaponry, you're going to be eating templates all game long against multiple durable flyers. They ARE expensive and that works to our advantage, but only if you can survive long enough to use that. Having footslogging troops is a very high risk. IG can get away from it because of the cheap nature of their troops. BT pay a premium for such a squad. And the only anti-flyer weaponry we have access to in pure BT armies are Quad-Guns via fortifications. Makes things a little tricky. So, it's my opinion, we're going to stuck in our Rhinos again.

Other comments were in regards to using threats to minimize targeting the troops. Plausible against average players. However, against tournament players, they'll understand the value troops hold and will direct their attention on them irregardless of the incoming threats to them. Bubblewrap and tarpits can/will delay those threats from impacting them immediately a lot of the time. While I would argue that having multiple threats DEFINITELY forces target priority problems for your opponent, but only for those units casing the "threat". Troops are a whole separate entity by themselves and will always command the attention of your opponent.

Another point I want to discuss is whether or not you feel its necessary to bulk up your squad sizes to ensure capturing a Table Quarter, as most tournaments that use that victory condition rely on points values to determine who controls those things. Do you artificially pimp your squads just to give them higher points values? Or do you just keep them skin and bones?

Philippe Lamberts

1/30/2013 09:50:22 am

Hi Marshal, nice to see you posting again!

I use the AA with fortification because I look at it in a different way. For me its a fix heavy weapon gunline which happens to be able to shoot at flyers when the opportunity arrises. Our BT problem with that(running away from it because of RZ) is solved true a loop in the rulebook. It states that 'a model' must be in contact with it(p105) So you put a squad in a Rhino and place it next to the weapon of choice in the ADL. I give the squad an additional Lascannon so they can shoot from top hatch same time. Depending on pref you can make that a RB with TL Lascannon with skin and bones squad. I know that's RAW but I've seen it used like that and approved in an ETC(europe) tournament last week.

So yes dear Templars, you can dust off one of those stockpiled RB's on the shelf :)

Steinhoff

1/25/2013 03:15:13 pm

Hello, new poster here and neophyte to BT.
I saw you mentioned drop pods as a possibility for BT, but you doubted the worth of CC crusader squads. Given that they can't assault, I completely agree they'll have difficulty even getting into combat or simply be tied up with some low point tar-pit.

But what about using shooty crusader squads in Drop Pods, while leaving CC to command squads, sword brethren, and maybe even dreads. They are point expensive (non-scoring as well), and they can't assault the turn they land, but what about saturating the field with drop pods to perhaps give the CC units a chance to survive.

1/26/2013 12:29:58 am

Hello! Welcome to Implausible Nature! :D

Drop Pods are most certainly a possibility for the BT and it just so happens, they are getting their very own blog post about it in a day or two. You'll find that what you mentioned isn't far off. Its the "return" of the DDP. ;)

1/27/2013 10:35:11 am

I have done a six DP + double biker list once. It actually did fairly well, but...I dropped the initial pods in the wrong place to cover the bikes and all it took was one "oops" and I had biker road kill all over the place.

The biggest reason we stink in CC is the AACNMTO nerf. Yes, we weren't so hot before, but we were at least as good as any other Marine out there except we hit 50% more. 50% more hits => 50% more wounds => 50% more kills.

Goldwhyn

1/27/2013 02:49:14 pm

Just adding in my own $0.02, I've found a medium to large squad in a drop pod reasonably effective. Admittedly, I haven't played much of 6th yet. I use it as an objective taker and rely heavily on cover and going to ground to ground. The composition is bolters with a heavy weapon. Usually a multi-metla, mainly on principle for times when they do get to shoot and the off chance the snap shot works when they first get out.

Zeruvar

1/26/2013 02:32:13 am

Good to see back Marshall. First time poster, but I've been lurking before I even started playing 40k to learn about templars.

Like previously mentioned our troops are just underwhelming and with the faq forcing us to move the full distance it has made it harder to survive and hold objectives.

What i have found that works for me has been to keep my troops cheap and in reserve. I use 5 man initiates w/o upgrades in reserve to cap home field objectives. Then i have a larger blob of initiates/neophytes whose main plan is to grab midfield objectives, or backfield if theres a path.

Definitely go to ground when trying to stay put.

Im getting some pods to use with my venerable dread, but anyone have any suggestions for 2 other units to drop?

1/27/2013 04:21:58 am

Thanks! Seems players are coming out of the woodwork with me. I like it! Glad to have you here! :)

I want to address the reserve suggestion you gave in your post quickly. Cheap is what I tend to do nowadays with my troops, so I agree with you on that point. As I mentioned in the article, there is a place for those large units, but it makes building a list more difficult. You mentioned that you do not give any upgrades to your backline troops and then have them reserve in. I found the thought very intriguing initially, but as I sat down and thought about it, I discovered that in a competitive environment, I'd be nervous to do this.

Why? Because those troops are not only fragile, they lack the means to remove enemy units from the area if you need them to. For example, if your opponent drops in a Dreadnought and is a turn away from charging your squad, you'll have to devote precious firepower from the main portion of your army to protect your objective campers. They can't protect themselves. Last edition we could get away with that by putting those basic 5-man squads in a LR and just sit there shooting with the Lascannons. Now, such a vehicle does not claim objectives and we have to get out to claim. Likewise, you'll also have no way of pushing a squad off those objectives (or poorly equipped to defend one) if that situation arises. I think running naked is a risk.

However, the use of reserves is certainly NOT a bad tool in the shed. If you're playing an opponent where you can take advantage of reserves effectively, definitely make use of it as it will prolong the life of those squads. Just remember that the fewer units you have on the board, means less targeting choices for your opponent. Which forces your opponent to focus fire on your units and that can turn out bad.

Elsus

1/27/2013 09:10:44 am

I was just reading on Bols about the rumour of the flyer supplement/update in February and it mentioned the possibility of allowing C:SM and BT to field Storm Ravens.

If that is really true it would be neat to field one/some with our crusader squads or terminators.

1/27/2013 09:56:32 am

Hola! You beat me to it! I was going to make note of it soon myself. lol!

Yeah, this is a rumor that has cropped up on several websites over the past couple weeks (surprised BOLS hadn't picked it up until today). To be honest, I'm not sure if its true or not. Because of that, I'm real hesitant to comment much on what it means to our lists. However, having access to the Stormraven (lovingly referred to as the "Stormbrick") is not a bad thing, unless GW messes with the points and possible weapon load-outs. It gives pure BT lists access to a flyer, which also acts as AF (anti-flyer). This is very good news for full drop pod armies, who struggled immensely in that capacity.

However, it is still a band-aid for our codex. The Stormraven isn't exactly cheap and adding them to your list is like trying to fit in a Land Raider. So there will be limits to how effective they will be in our lists, but yes...I welcome the opportunity to include them in my lists.

1/27/2013 06:30:09 pm

As an example of my approach to use of troops (las for back objectives, melta/plas fo central:

Reclusiarch (HQ) (BT) @ 141 Pts
Power Fist; Frag Grenades; Artificer Armour

Emperor's Champion (HQ) (BT) @ 140 Pts
Accept any Challenge, no matter the odds

10 Crusader Squad (Troops) (BT) @ 216 Pts
Power Weapon; Flamer; Bolt Pistols; Close-combat Weapons
4 Neophytes, Bolt Pistols; Close-combat Weapons

10 Crusader Squad (Troops) (BT) @ 216 Pts
Power Weapon; Flamer; Bolt Pistols; Close-combat Weapons
4 Neophytes, Bolt Pistols; Close-combat Weapons

5 Crusader Squad (Troops) (BT) @ 96 Pts
Multi-melta; Plasma Gun; Boltguns

5 Crusader Squad (Troops) (BT) @ 96 Pts
Multi-melta; Plasma Gun; Boltguns

5 Crusader Squad (Troops) (BT) @ 95 Pts
Lascannon; Boltguns

5 Crusader Squad (Troops) (BT) @ 95 Pts
Lascannon; Boltguns

Land Speeder Typhoon @ [70] Pts
Heavy Bolter; Typhoon Missile Launcher

Land Speeder Typhoon @ [70] Pts
Heavy Bolter; Typhoon Missile Launcher

Land Speeder Typhoon @ [70] Pts
Heavy Bolter; Typhoon Missile Launcher

Land Raider Crusader (Heavy Support) (BT) @ 270 Pts
Dozer Blade

Land Raider Crusader (Heavy Support) (BT) @ 270 Pts
Dozer Blade

Vindicator (Heavy Support) (BT) @ 155 Pts
Power of Machine Spirit

Models in Army: 56

Total Army Cost: 2000

1/29/2013 01:52:43 pm

I'd considered running LRCs in 6th until I ran into a practice game before NOVA with my 2k worth of Necrons vs a pair of guys with 1k lists (both Marines, IIRC, one with Pedro, one with Vulcan) each sporting a LRC. RF Gauss is kryptonite for AV14, especially if you have time to "dance" and get the initial shot off at 24". Remeber that all the weapons on a LRC are recessed back from the front of the hull, to I can get to 24" while you are still >24" away with your weapons. Opps, now you have to move forward, reducing you to snap shots with all but two weapons. If you only move up just enough to get 24" shooting, I can back up and try again. If you lunge forwards 6"or 12" to try and get into range to drop the squad on me, then I go to double tap range and unload again.

Note that setting up exactly at 24" from the hull also prevents an assault from the troops inside because of the configuration of the LRC which makes the front door ~1/2" behind the front of the hull which will put you the same amount short.

1/29/2013 02:21:26 pm

Move a little forward and unload troops for a secont turn assault, or just camp objectives.

1/30/2013 04:01:03 am

If you unload, I won't be any closer than 16"+ from your potential assault squad (or if I am, then it is a setup, like twin Electric Fields to give you 2d6 S8 AP5 hits as soon as you contact me). They key thing to beat a Necron list is to not allow it to choose its range. An old style LR is more intimidating to me because it can stand off at 48" and plink at my vehicles with its lascannons.

The older style worries me more (as a Necron player) because it can hang back with a nasty squad in it until I have to commit to mid field and then it rolls up 6", the troops disembark 6" and charge. It hasn't cost me a game, but given the newness of 6th, I'm not sure it was executed as well as possible.

1/30/2013 04:27:41 am

Who cares about 7 ap5 hits?

Algesan

1/30/2013 03:39:45 pm

Depends on what you are hitting the unit with. It is worth ~2 MEQ dead before everyone starts swinging. Of course, the guy who charged me with the Nob squad was a little irked...

1/27/2013 07:32:37 pm

The naked 5 man reserve can definitely turn out bad. My main considerations for doing that is because of my strategy with the list that has them. Its mostly a mechanized list with 3-4 LRCs and vindicators and tda squads. Most of my army will just be rolling up taking shots as they go while the 2 squads of 5 initiates stay in reserve and hunker down on a back field objective.

If there are enemy units already camping my side of the table, it would mean my advancing units are not much of a threat for him for any number of reasons. Having upgrades on the 5 man squad wont be making much of an impact.

On the other hand, lately I have been trying out an assault cannon spam list. 3 5man tdas with 2x AC and a tda command squad wih the same load out (or switch out one tda squad for a ven dread so i have more points to spread around).

With this setup, i use my 5 man initiates with a lascannon for potshots, while my larger troop units stay in reserve and then run to objectives themselves. More likely i put an axe with them so i can also use them as a decent bubble wrap for my 2 potms vindies.

I guess as you can see I tend to play a rock list. It may not be the most competitive but I find it the most enjoyable. Deep striking 4 termie squads next to my opponents home objective after knocking out his heavy guns with my vindies never fails to give me pleasure.

Nathan

2/2/2013 06:27:18 pm

So what about just running Black Tide? We can still put something like 120 bodies on the table at 2000 points. That means 6 really large troops choices and a character or two for fun. We can use neophytes as ablative wounds and move out huge blobs around to control points.

Sure it might not be the best thing ever but it might be worth a try again at this point.

2/3/2013 09:47:49 am

The main problem with that list is how vulnerable it is to incoming fire. With everyone packing plasma now, these guys are going to be pounded down very quickly. Likewise, its not pretty to see how quickly the lowly IG can flashlight your guys to death. Then there is the danger of facing tri-Heldrake lists, which are going to become extremely common with the changes to their turret weaponry (i.e. Baleflamer). That weapon is going to eat foot-based units for breakfast.

If you take a full army like this, you find yourself extremely lacking in two things: fire support and mobility. If you cannot at least suppress a dangerous enemy unit on the board with fire, then you will likely lose. Or if you cannot get into enemy transports. Or knock down those pesky fast vehicles for the Eldar/Dark Eldar.

Sharpie

2/3/2013 09:17:28 am

It really tells you something about how desperate BT players are to have a decent chance now-a-days when a 12 day old blog post has 32 comments.

I've given up practically at this point, playing BT is no longer fun and the absurdity of decent lists and of how little they reflect the fluff is immensely off putting.

2/3/2013 09:41:43 am

Depends on how competitive you wish to be with your BT. Even in 5th Edition, we bent fluff a little bit to become competitive. If you're just playing casually, then the composition of your forces shouldn't matter nearly as much. But that doesn't mean your tactics cannot be refined.

However, as everyone knows...I play competitive from beginning to end. That means from the list concept, all the way to the tactics I employ on the board. Nevertheless, I try to keep the feel of the BT as closely as possible. I'm curious what types of lists you're referencing that doesn't fit the fluff?

As for the fun factor, I will admit, 6th Edition is NOT as fun to me as 5th Edition was. Nevertheless, I still play and enjoy the game. And I do it with my BT. But I highly recommend players using what they enjoy using and if that means moving to another army, then that is what should happen. I am just too stubborn for that. :)

Marshal Caliban

2/9/2013 02:43:40 pm

Last time I went to my 'local' GW, I talked to one of the guys there about keeping Templar's competitive in 6th.
The talk was mainly about allies, and I was apprehensive at first, but when I thought about it, the fluff I created for my Crusade fitted this perfectly (that is, The Mordant Crusade was a joint effort between The Black Templars and the 72nd Death Korps regiment), so I decided IG allies would not impact my love of Templars.

Anyway, it was suggested to me to take 3 Vendettas with Stormtroopers in them as allies, each stormtrooper squad with either plasma or melta weapons.
The idea here was obviously to enable my army to take out enemy fliers and add mobility. I'm not a guard player, nor do I have the book (this is just an idea/plan), but I believe the 3 fliers + units would cost somewhere around 600-800 points (most games I play are at 2k pts).

So, here's my question(s): Does this sound like an effective ally choice? Is it legal? (Are Stormtroopers troop choices?)

Or, as fliers look to be a big threat to Templars, is it going to be more worthwhile getting 3 Hydras, with some meatshields to taste?

Thanks Laeroth, and sorry for the long post

2/10/2013 06:18:01 am

Hello! Indeed, Imperial Guard are excellent, yet fluffy, allies to take with our Black Templars. When you combine the two forces, it fills in our holes nicely. Let's address your questions though.

1) Stormtroopers are an Elite slot choice, thus you can only take one per ally detachment. So that would not be legal. It would also be kind of a waste of points in my opinion, as the points could be used elsewhere in the list. Veterans are a better option here, as they are troops and they can armed with up to three special weapons (and one heavy weapon squad if you want). They can also pick up a "doctrine" for 30 points each. They also have better BS than most of the other troops, though still rock the same armor.

2) It WOULD have been, had GW given Hydra's Interceptor as well as Skyfire. Because they didn't, the Hydra is pretty useless against normal units. So its a big points investment for just Flyers. But if you KNOW you're going to face them, they are good. Just remember that you can only take one heavy support slot, so if you want to take three Hydras, you'd have to squadron them. So they'd have to shoot at the same target.

That is the same problem with the Valkyries, they are required to be in a squadron if you want more than one in your list. But forcing them to shoot at the same thing is kind of a problem. Another problem with putting troops into these flyers is the fact that you cannot disembark if you're Zooming. So you'd have to drop into Hover mode with your flyer (or all of them, if in a squadron) to disembark, which makes it an easy to kill target. Adding that all up, that is why I only take one flyer in my list. If you wanted some more defense, go with an Aegis Defense Line with a Quad-Gun. ;)

2/12/2013 04:06:45 pm

Thanks Laeroth, that's great help!
I assume the GW employee probably did tell me Veterans and my memory is just failing me :P
I know I will be facing heavy air resistance (a friend of mine is going to be a scumbag in our upcoming campaign and run a Necron flyer spam list) so I will NEED to account for that somehow.
Maybe it would be possible to combine several of these ideas...
i.e. Veterans w 3 special weapons in a Vendetta, an aegis defense line w Quad gun and a Hydra... I only say all of this, because in most games he will probably be running six fliers or something stupid. DDP against this doesn't really seem like an option :/

2/12/2013 04:06:52 pm

2/12/2013 04:06:59 pm

Marshal Helstrom

2/19/2013 02:46:11 pm

Long time lurker and avid BT and IG player (though I must admit I haven't got much game time since before the first set of FAQs). Just to clarify: if I'm not mistaken the wording for grav-chute insertion allows IG embarked on a Valkyrie/Vendetta to deploy without the flyer having to enter hover mode (I remember when 6th first came out I did use that to great effect for last minute objective capture as long as i didn't scatter all to hell...)

2/12/2013 04:07:53 pm

Oh god the spam there. Sorry about that, my internet was playing up

2/14/2013 04:20:26 am

Remember, Hydras are the anti-Necron choice. Why? Well, they work against flyers (obvious), but Skyfire also works against Skimmers, which is what every other vehicle in the Necron arsenal (except that silly walker) belongs to. Also, the Hydra has that targeting thing that negates Jink saves (including flyers evading) as well as their "flat out" save.

My two options to supplement the flyer are both 150 points: a pair of Hydras or a pair of HWS(AC) near the CO Cdr to get the TL orders. I'm leaning towards the HWS because they are also scoring units.

Brother Zor

2/28/2013 03:06:02 am

Hi Marshall
Glad you are back at it! I have been reading all I can at your excellent site and I'm glad you're updating things to fall in line with 6th ed. I like to run MSU with pods, not a complete pod list, cuz I can't afford that! O ne of the biggest things I get stuck on when writing a list is whether to take power axes or power mauls. I sure do like hitting at I4, so what are your thoughts?

ribster

3/10/2013 09:12:30 am

Any merit in Space wolves long fang squads?

Also, we obviously now get Stormtalons and Stormravens, must be worth considering at least?

Carlos

4/5/2013 02:54:56 am

Hi brethen!
Emperors champion with AACNMTO
Master is Sanctity in TDA, TH and mantle
Reclusiarch with artificer

5 hammernators

14 man squad with pfist and flames
14 man squad with pfist and flamer

3x LRC with blessed hull, searchlight and smoke.

That is something like 1970.

Could this work?

Let's get crackin'!

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