Implausible Nature
  • Home
    • Links and Contact Page
    • Site Index
    • Site Primer >
      • Casual vs Competitive Players -- Healing the Divide
      • Laeroth's Take On Building Fluffy Armies
  • Laeroth's Blog
  • The Njesta Crusade
    • Black Templars Army Lists
    • Njesta Crusade Fluff >
      • Black Templars Background Literature
  • Black Templars 101
    • BT 101: Where to Start >
      • BT 101: Unit Analysis
      • BT 101: Building Low-Point BT Armies
      • BT 101: Commonly Used Abbreviations
    • BT 101: Building an 9th Edition List >
      • BT 101: Building A Competitive 9th Edition List
      • BT 101: Building Another Competitive 9th Edition List
    • BT 101: Assembling Your Crusade
    • BT 101: Playing With Your New Army >
      • BT 101: Tactics
      • BT 101: Duality
    • BT 101: The Conclusion
  • Painting and Modeling
    • Black Templars Gallery
    • How To Paint Black Templars

Mailbag: Classic Marines List Building

2/26/2020

3 Comments

 
"Hello Laeroth,

I was wondering if you would consider doing a listbuilding article or just tips using only classic/mini Marines as a constraint. 

Seeing as the official Templar range is classic, and many Templar players are mini marine nostalgics from the codex days.
(also personal OCD with mixing models of different scales)

You are also the only publication that focuses on the boys in black, it would be grand.

Regards,"
Hello to you!  While I can certainly do as you are requesting, or at least give tips, just understand that you would be seriously hampering your list not using Primaris.  With that being said, we still have quite a few very strong units that are in the "classic" model range.

First, the HQ units.  Honestly, we're running classic marines here anyway.  Captains/Chaplains/Lieutenants with Jump Packs, High Marshal Helbrecht, and Chaplain Grimaldus.  The only other HQ you really might take right now is the Phobos Captain, but he is an outlier.  You might also see an inquisitor here, but that will be another post.  The reason?  Mobility.  Our forces do better when they move around the board quickly, offer up their buffs to similarly mobile units, and get into fray.  Everything else is selling our chapter tactics, doctrines, and stratagems short.

Then we have troops.  Having no access to primaris, that leaves us Crusader squads or Scouts.  Technically, we also have Tactical squads...but you're likely only to use them in a fully mechanized transport build (rhinos/drop pods).  The most competitive choice here is scouts for a number of reasons.  First, their points cost makes them much more efficient in double-battalion detachments or brigades.  Second, scouts have a fantastic special rule called Concealed Positions.  This allows you to effectively decide your deployment after your opponent puts their models on the board.  Huge advantage, as you will be able to deploy defensively or aggressively depending on your match-up.  Third, there are several stratagems that are unique to the Black Templars that target our scouts and make them much more effective.  Crusader squads also have a new rule that is a boon to the neophytes in the unit, but the crusader squad prefers to be fielded in larger numbers.  This means you're likely to be footslogging, which is not always competitive if you're not moving at jump pack speeds.  Fortunately, we have some tools to get us across the board via Litanies, Frontline Commander, and stratagems.  You also want those larger squads so that you can hopefully absorb some of those casualties on the way to your target.  Losing some weapon versatility with the Crusader Squad makes it less of an attractive objective holder and using them in a mechanized list means you will be eating a ton of points for that mobility.  Ultimately, it comes down to whether you can afford to build around a larger Crusader squad or two; or the Scouts using Concealed Positions, but having less durability.  I tend to lean towards Scouts.

Now that the more simple choices are out of the way, we'll look at the units that are really starting to get sticky for choices.  Let's look at the Elites first.  This slot has a ton of value in it for classic marines, including two of the best units for us:  Vanguard Veterans and Company Veterans.  The Vanguard Vets give us a legitimate close combat threat that is highly mobile, versatile in its close combat weaponry, and has some stratagem support to make it more lethal.  Utilizing those jump packs, you can often avoid enemy bubble wrap and never get stuck in a combat you don't want to be in (no penalties to leaving combat with FLY).  You can also smack FLY-units out of the sky in close combat, which is hilarious to imagine; though against most Flyer-role units, you'll be hard pressed to keep up with them with their extreme speed.  Company Veterans hit those versatile notes as well, being able to be armed with a variety of ranged options as well as close combat weaponry.  The downside is these guys are limited to 5-man units and do not have jump packs.  Sadness.  The other competitive pick here is the Assault Centurians.  These guys, armed with Hurricane Bolters, are death incarnate.  They are grossly under-costed and are very hard to eliminate.  If they hit your opponent's lines, game-over.  However, they are slow as heck.  They need a way across the board, so Land Raider Crusaders are where its at since we don't have the redeployment shenanigans of the Raven Guard or advancing that White Scars can do.

The fast attack slot is a little bit easier here, as there is only a couple of competitive slots here.  Land Speeders and bikers, specifically Scout Bikers.  The former suffers from a -1 to hit to its weaponry if it moves, but its very fast and has a nice complement of long range weaponry.  This will be important to help eliminate anything that might outrange your forces.  Alternatively, the Land Speeder Tempest will be an aggressive close range weapons platform with additional durability, but can be critical late in the game.  The Scout Bikers are huge in that they can pump out a ton of close range shots and are very cheap.  Excellent anti-infantry.  These two are your best bets.

Next up is the heavy support slot.  So there really is two units that are being taken in competitive games right now.  Thunderfire Cannons and Eliminators.  Obviously, since Eliminators are primaris based, we cannot use them.  So that leaves Thunderfire Cannons due to the stratagems available to Space Marines.  However, they aren't very efficient spammed in your lists.  That opens up some other options with the list.  We have the Devastator Centurians which can effectively eliminate any unit on the drop, especially with their grav stratagem, but are ridiculously expensive.  If you need something dead, these guys can do it.  But like their assault counter-parts, they need transportation.  Land Raider Crusaders are able to transport the units of doom across the board, while having a ton of shots themselves.  They also lend themselves well to our newest stratagems, allowing their occupants to get into combat without the threat of overwatch and reduce the ability of your opponent to hit your unit in return.  We also have Relic Leviathian Dreadnoughts which are stupidly good, but require you to have another non-relic unit.  They are also a little on the expensive side of things, but well-worth the points if you can fit it in.

Finally, the Flyer slot.  There really isn't a whole lot to look at in this slot as everything is too expensive for what it does unless you're playing Iron Hands.  Why?  Because you are likely moving each turn and that reduces your to hit rolls by one.  That is a serious hit to your shooting efficiency.  Stormravens used to be the thing, able to pack quite a bit of firepower with some transport capacity, but "Boots on the Ground" basically prevented them from impacting the objective game, which was a huge nerf.  Being a flyer isn't as good anymore, as many infantry choices are able to fly and engage them in close combat, where they fold like a wet blanket.  If you decide to go with a unit here, you're really looking at the Stormraven for its transport capabilities and using the weaponry as a bonus.  A secondary choice would be the Stormtalons.  But there are better choices in other slots and these guys will eat up your points quick, which deny your ability to fill battalion and/or brigade detachments.

Now that you have a brief look at the best units in the book, how do we build those lists?  Brigade or Battalion detachments are a must here.  Start with your Teeth of Terra Captain and build from there.  Chaplains are usually a pretty good place to start, but you need to remember that you have to be on the board at the start of the turn to utilize their litanies.  Jump packs should be obvious here, as walking is bad.  Scouts fill out the troops slots, then take Vanguard Veteran squads.  Trust me, they are worth every point.  The rest of your force is going to depend on whether you used a battalion or brigade.  Honestly, its going to be difficult to build an effective brigade without using Primaris marines though, due to how cheap they can be.  Take those double-battalions and you can fill your list to taste!

So there you have it...we are definitely competitive using the "old" marines.  This is just a small sampling of the most competitive stuff, but you can use most everything in the book now.  Especially the HQ, Elites, and Troops slot.  Angels of Death is that good, especially when you add in our chapter tactics.

Good luck and thanks for reading!
3 Comments
Nathan
2/27/2020 10:23:31 am

Thank you for doing this. I’m one of the guys with an absolute TON of old marines and this is a great guide for making them work. I really appreciate you rubbing this site and I always check it daily (or more) for your awesome content!

What do you think of a couple of LRC filled with crusader squads and then something else scary to draw fire, like Leviathans? I feel like that makes a core of hard choices for your opponent I terms of target priority.

Also how would you equip the Leviathans?

Reply
Marshall Rich
3/3/2020 01:43:30 am

I ran a LRC alongside a Leviathan Dreadnought for a handful of games. There's certainly some logic to it, especially since you can buff the LRC with the Aurillian Shroud for a 4+ invuln, and Litany of Divine Protection for a 5+ FNP. The main downside to consider is 1. Land Raiders are expensive, and they will add up to nearly 500 points including their passengers, and 2. It only takes 8 wounds for their movement to go down to 5 in. That can really hurt your opportunities for a turn 2 charge. It also forces you into a beta strike/turn 2 focused play style, which isn't ideal for an army based around charge buffs rather then melee buffs. That said, buffed properly the LRC is almost impossible to kill in the first turn, and a Levi Dread can take some pressure off it, though a lot of opponents may simply accept the presence of the Levi Dread and focus on the Land Raider.

As for Leviathan loadouts, I think there's really 4 options, two that are shooty and two that are fighty. Dual Storm Cannons, Dual Cyclonic Melta Lance, Cyclonic Melta Lance and Siege Drill, or Siege Drill and Siege Claw. Dual Storm Cannons just have you sit back from 24 in range and melt everything, Cyclonic Melta Lance has you move forward and shoot heavy armor to death. Both these options need good screens, particularly the Melta option, as even a tiny touch in melee will these behemoths down for a turn. The Heavy Flamers are not enough. The alternative is melee heavy, looking to smash heavy units. You can either take the melta lance for extra shooting while you move up, or the siege claw for +1 attack and better performance against infantry looking to tarpit you. Having tried it a bit, I'm skeptical of the Leviathan melee builds due to its ease of being tarpitted or being blocked by your own units, but one can't deny the damage output.

Also, if I must emphasize one thing to you, Scouts > Crusader squads. Yes, I know it's against the fluff, but hear me out. With scout deployment plus charge rerolls, your scouts are all but guaranteed to get in melee turn 1. Your crusader squads will not get there until turn 2, possibly turn 3. Plus, you may want a transport to protect them from shooting. Or you can take Scouts and not need a transport, because you're 9 in away from the enemy anyways. You even have a stratagem to reroll ALL wound rolls, rather then just get a captain reroll on half your units. Ultimately, your list is up to you, and you may not wish to part with your wayward Crusader Squads. But as far as I'm concerned, there's not a single competitive reason to take Crusader Squads over Scouts.

Reply
Oberstein
4/19/2020 03:13:21 pm

so, questions here.
a) Troops units. I get that tacticals are best used for mechanized lists. is there a reason, in your opinion, that mechanized lists wouldn't be competitive?

b) Vanguard veterans. while i like them, i keep seeing them used with multiple storm shields, and experience says converting all that just for 1 edition isn't worth it(storm shields are notorious for changes in cost/availability between codexes and editions). would you ever use vanguards with less storm shields?

c) in Fast Attack i disagree. classic marines have tons of options, if only because what you really want from here (fast, cheap bubblerap) can be done by single landspeeders/attack bikes, scout bikes, really ANY cheap option. just don't use mediocre units such as assault squads imo.

d) how obsolete are classic dreadnoughts?

Reply



Leave a Reply.

    Laeroth's Blog

    This blog is devoted to the Black Templars chapter and the tactics, list building, and general musing associated with them.  Readers will see occasional posts from Marshal Laeroth.

    Check out the Implausible Nature YouTube Channel!

    Follow me on Twitter!

    Like what you see and want to help support Implausible Nature?  Click the link below and donate!

    RSS Feed

    Archives

    December 2020
    August 2020
    July 2020
    May 2020
    March 2020
    February 2020
    January 2020
    December 2019
    November 2019
    October 2019
    September 2019
    August 2019
    July 2019
    June 2019
    May 2019
    April 2019
    January 2019
    December 2018
    October 2018
    September 2018
    August 2018
    April 2018
    March 2018
    February 2018
    January 2018
    December 2017
    November 2017
    October 2017
    August 2017
    July 2017
    June 2017
    May 2017
    March 2017
    January 2017
    December 2016
    November 2016
    July 2016
    June 2016
    March 2016
    November 2015
    July 2015
    June 2015
    May 2015
    April 2015
    March 2015
    February 2015
    January 2015
    September 2014
    May 2014
    December 2013
    October 2013
    September 2013
    August 2013
    June 2013
    May 2013
    February 2013
    January 2013
    December 2012
    October 2012
    September 2012
    August 2012
    July 2012
    June 2012
    May 2012
    April 2012
    March 2012
    February 2012
    January 2012
    December 2011
    November 2011
    October 2011
    September 2011
    August 2011
    July 2011
    June 2011
    May 2011
    April 2011
    March 2011
    February 2011
    January 2011
    December 2010
    November 2010
    October 2010
    September 2010
    August 2010
    July 2010
    June 2010
    May 2010
    April 2010
    March 2010
    February 2010
    January 2010
    December 2009
    November 2009
    October 2009
    September 2009