Our very first burning question...

8/31/2013

Its time to get this ship rolling. While I know that we don't actually have the codex in our hands yet, though pre-orders have been placed, we can do some early tactical analysis based on what we know from the rumors. This is going to be more of a core list building exercise that revolves around the Heavy Support slot in our armies. Many BT players in the past have scoffed at shooting, it cannot be denied that games are won and lost in this department. So we better have the correct tools available to make that happen! So let's get to it.

The two units that we'll be discussing are the Devastator Centurians and the Thunderfire Cannon. Both give us huge torrent of fire capabilities, though each have their strengths against different types of opponents. I'll get into the why's at a later date, but I'm going to assume that you're sticking to the 3-man Centurian squad to keep costs down. Stock, that is about 190 points (rumored). If you upgrade your weaponry to Cyclone Missile Launchers, you're adding about 30-45 points (don't recall exactly...irrelevant anyway). That gives us 15 grav cannon shots and 6 missiles per turn, per unit. Not bad at all. These guys are excellent at killing MCs and MEQ. Centurians do have 5 toughness, 2 wounds, and 2+ armor saves. But they don't have invulnerable saves, which is really their Achilles' Heel. For reference purposes, the rules for Grav weaponry are below.

Grav Weaponry
-Have the Concussive special rule
-Weapons are not Blast weapons.
-Wound the target based on their Armor Save. For example, a terminator
has a 2+ save so they would be wounded on a die roll of 2+. Against
vehicles roll a die, 1-5 does nothing and on a 6 the vehicle is
Immobilized and loses a Hull Point.

STATS
Grav Pistol: Range 12" AP:2, Concussive
Grav Rifle: 18" salvo 2/3 AP:2, Concussive
Grav Cannon: 24" salvo 3/5 AP:2 Concussive
Grav Amp: Re-roll failed To-Wound and Armor Penetration rolls for Grav weapons.

Adversely, we have the Thunderfire Cannon. We know what this thing can do and its definitely a pain in the ass if you've ever faced one. Packing 4 blasts with varying effects, these can definitely thin numbers out quickly, especially if fired into horde infantry. While they still force saves on MEQ, they are far less effective at killing them than those poor armor save dudes. However, you can use this thing to target vehicles in a pinch, using those Str 6 blasts to potentially pop something lightly-armored. The downside is that its an artillery piece, so it could potentially be knocked out quickly if you don't have sufficient cover for it.

Which brings us to our big question: Do we take 2 3-man Centurian squads and 1 Thunderfire Cannon for MEQ/MC busting power? Or 1 3-man Centurian squad and 2 Thunderfire Cannons for horde control? Keep in mind that Nids are rumored to be the next codex released, with the Orcs following shortly behind them. The meta-game could very well shift towards hordes. Or it could make MCs ultra-powerful. Its a tough choice and I'd like to hear your thoughts on it. Note: I'm leaning towards the 2x Centurians/1x Thunderfire Cannon. ;)

In addition, please see this thread for other important info regarding Implausible Nature.

32 Comments

Trignama

9/1/2013 09:20:09 am

I say roll 2-3 man Centurion squads. 6 blast templates (more than likely twin linked) from each units is pretty good horde control, they can also use those rockets against vehicles, so there is the duality. Sure your grav guns are gonna hurt shooting at anything with a 5+ or worse armor, but at least you get the re-rolls to wound from the grav amp.

MC's are everywhere this edition, and these guys will be a crucial unit. I feel one unit of 3 will be to fragile, 2 of 3 will cause massive headaches, and I'm just not seeing too many drawbacks, with the exeption of points.

All in all I believe the duality and durability of the centurions are the best bet in this scenario.

Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link

9/3/2013 01:22:50 pm

I think I'm leaning this way myself, the firepower output for this unit is too much to ignore. Sure, there are only 6 wounds in a Centurian squad for ~230 points (with no invulnerables)...but its LESS than what we used to pay for on CML terminators. But we gain a wound, higher toughness, and still have the ability to grab some cover saves. But the missile launcher upgrade is critical to this squad, as it guarantees FTF and you won't be wasting two turns getting into position. Without those ML's...I think we should be keeping the Centurians at home.

kieranhoare

9/8/2013 01:22:18 am

I was going to stick with hurricane bolters, 250, rather then 280, although it does seem a waste to have the bolters shooting at tanks, my centurions will be replacing my 5 dual heavy weapons tank hunting terminators over time, but I'll magnetize them to see how they go

Acebaur

9/1/2013 11:29:34 am

I hate to say it, but I think the Centurions are growing on me. My initial hate came from their Mega Man like appearance and how terrible they look in blue. They do look significantly better in black and if BT are going to field Devastator type troops it would be these guys. The grav cannons/ML combo looks nasty, and will likely be a popular combo. What are your thoughts on taking HB's and Hurricane bolters? I think it would be great against horde armies as well with massive weight of fire. I think I like that combo because it reminds me of mini LRC's lol.

9/3/2013 01:30:25 pm

Umm...honest answer? I don't think the Centurians are worth taking unless you take the ML upgrade. Unless, of course, you knew that you were facing a horde army beforehand (but I try to avoid list tailoring). The ML gives you two different options in its firing modes, while providing FTF against everything in the game. Heavy Bolters are worthless against vehicles in general and pretty bad against MEQ. Hurricane Bolters require you waste two turns of movement before they become useful. I'm not sure that is a good use of 190 points for each unit. At least with flyers, you get "OMG!" factor when they hit.

Algesan

9/1/2013 02:49:45 pm

I've always had an issue with BT as BP/CCW primary focus. Close Assault means point blank and both short range RF and cold steel fit in those categories. Given that BT are also supposed to be Heavy Armor specialists, it is a too narrow a focus for Marines that are supposed to be primarily Bolter users. That being said, I'd go with a minor retcon and change to the Crusader to make them Bolter, Bolt Pistol & CCW armed. Yep, like Grey Hunters, but if there is any Marine faction closest to Black Templar in organization and equipment, it is the Wolves. Mainly because the two general historical models (Vikings, Knights) are related, the feudal system owed a lot to the conquering Vikings, so inherited a lot of the customs.

9/3/2013 01:25:25 pm

When the rumors first hit, I was happy because it sounded like Crusader squads were going to be equipped like Grey Hunters. Alas...doesn't look like that is the case. :(

9/3/2013 01:56:46 pm

I was getting into having 12 Troop choices potentially (6xInitiate, 6xNeophyte) either with the ability to join together to make the regular Crusader squads or "combat squad" a Crusader squad into Initiates & Neophytes. Of course, then I was looking at rerolling misses & rending in CC.

I don't demand to be God's Gift to close combat or even close, but the ability to not care if you are wading in or being waded into, just knowing that other than against specialist xenos CC squads there was the potential of giving at least as good as you got fit the backstory.

BT 307

9/2/2013 01:09:18 am

I think the thing I don't like is the lack of an invulnerable save. I don't want to spend nearly 200 points for three models that a well placed shot from a demolisher or doomsday ark can blow off the table. I also think that the models are overpriced in terms of actual cost right now. I won't be getting any of them anytime soon. Maybe when the next new dex comes off and the fire sales hit Ebay. I think that this is a unit type that is good in theory, but I'm much more of a volume of theory. I'd personally prefer something more versatile like Sternguard.

9/2/2013 01:10:33 am

I'm much more a volume of fire guy, not theory...

9/2/2013 01:53:08 am

You always have the option of keeping them in cover. And if you can manage to hug ruins for most of the game, that 4+ is all the invunerable you need from shooting. Keeping them out of CC is another problem, maybe keep crusaders near them/somewhere in the vicinity to intercept would be assaulters.

9/2/2013 03:26:22 am

In theory, yes. But in Magic (I don't know if you play or not) when evaluating a cards merit we use a criteria called "Dies to Removal". That means it's an incredibly expensive card cost that's far too easy to kill (usually with a very cheap kill spell). Now, not having the dex in my hands? From a purely theorycrafting perspective? I think these things are overrated. Everyone and their dog is throwing around AP2 shots and melee swings. I think for that amount of points Sternguard or TH/SS 'nators are a better investment. I'll need to see battle reports and actual stats before I invest $80 into three models with no Invulnerable Save.

9/3/2013 06:43:46 pm

And if you have to come out of cover? Or get one of those "blessing" psychic powers that force you to reroll cover/invulnerable saves and you cannot Deny the Witch against? I agree with BT307 on this, at least provisionally.

IMO, they have the same potential problem as a LRC...and given the general lack of Land Raiders in most tournament (or even FLGS) lists, because they end up being a point source failure because of the points.

9/3/2013 01:43:08 pm

While I love the Sternguard myself, they DEFINITELY fulfill a similar role as the Centurians do. Both are versatile and are not static in their playstyle (provided each are armed correctly). However, you can easily reach the price tag of the Centurians with that proper Sternguard unit, but get similar wounds and worse armor saves. While you are correct in that the Centurians are susceptible to Str 10 AP 2 ordnance, let's consider how often we see those. Other than Demo Cannons from BT players, very very little. You mention the Doomsday Ark, but in competitive play, you're not going to see that being used. You're going to see Annihilation Barges. Beyond that, if you made use of cover, you're set to go. If you're that worried about those weapons, make them priorities early in the game and take them out. :P

With that being said, I will admit that I'm going to be playtesting them before I buy the models. While I'm all for some excitement and "shiny" syndrome, I'm not stupid when it comes to my limited funds. No use buying something I'll never use. :P

9/3/2013 01:49:58 pm

Hmmm, do I hear a recurrence of the SB vs Assault Terminator discussion again....

9/3/2013 01:56:57 pm

@ Algesan

Depends on what you're specifically referring to? :D

9/3/2013 06:36:30 pm

The option of buying the old SB with Vet skill = 19
Add Term Honors so they become Vets (A2, Ld9) = 29
Add Storm Shield = 39

Ooops, almost the cost of Assault Terminators with the only potential for saving was the melta guy who didn't need Honors or SS, but you could get one PF for 15, so it ended up being 390 points.

Heh, I was almost convinced to take a squad before JAN 2011 because for 15 points you got Honors and a 5+ in CC Combat Shield to go with the BP/CCW guys. Still 34 a pop was steep, but getting to shoot before charging in was a maybe okay thing, especially with several 5++ vs MCs and a PF hidden in there.

9/2/2013 04:16:20 am

Chances are these things will murder anything melee with ap 2 before it comes anywhere near them. They don't really fear lascannons as you can possibly have a 50% chance of avoiding any damage they put out, and if it does get through it won't insta gib you. With lascannons not being able to put much torrent of fire down, again it is nothing to worry about. Most plasma weaponry has to be brought into 24" range to attack you, right where you want them, and again you can have the cover relatively easy. With solid rocket shots you can even blast any unit with plasma off the board before it gets in range anyway. I don't believe centurions are under rated at all. Remember they won't be the only thing in your list, and you will have other units to help handle threats against your centurions, I'm going to bet now that centurions are pretty much going to be an auto include into any competitive list. Their ability to handle pretty much anything on the board, combined with their durability, makes them a pretty ace unit.

9/3/2013 02:00:23 pm

I agree. Anything that is less than Str 10, but still AP 2 is not worth noting because A) it doesn't have the weight of fire needed to bring these guys down, B) requires you to be within range of the devastating weaponry the Centurians have, or C) you should be in cover. If you enemy has an unit that could potentially arm your expensive unit, you sure as hell should plan for that in your deployment.

9/2/2013 11:00:21 am

And I think they're going to be a cumbersome points sink that ultimately isn't worth it (again based on playtesting reports and rumors, not having dex in hand). I'll proxy them with terminators and try them out. But just looking at them? I think it's quite prophetic that it looks like they're in coffins. Again, I'm not crazy about anything that expensive that dies from one demolisher cannon shot. But I'm also the kind of player who would rather take two versatile units instead of one really flashy one. The flashiest thing I take is an LRC, because even in the new Hull Point game, they still last a good god damn long time, or require specific game planning. I don't see Centurions requiring specific game planning. Seriously, Sternguard in a drop pd with combi plasmas and dragonfire (I think, whichever ones are fleshbane) rounds; that's the ballgame and now one of my best units is in your backfield.

Now, we'll see when they come out. But on first reaction, which is all we're going on? These guys are far too overrated for a unit that's yet to hit the table and all the things I can thing of that would easily kill them. They could be Peyton Manning, they could be Ryan Leaf. We'll see. Again, I'm not dropping $80 sight unseen for models I've not tested.

9/3/2013 01:54:27 pm

While I disagree with your assessment of the Centurians, I am no fool either. I'm definitely going to be playtesting them before bringing them into the tournament setting before other proven units. But on paper, I believe them to be extremely solid for the points. I was actually very surprised at their points cost; I thought they'd be at least 210 points base.

greggles

9/3/2013 11:57:45 pm

I figure I'll try the centurions as proxy's for awhile. Those are some pretty expensive models....especially with all the toys we just got.

I'm actually kinda of excited about bringing the ironclads into my BT army...and we've got two flyers now (one an assault flyer!).

I also find that units in 40k where everyone argues..."Well as long as you have cover" or "as long as X is happening" usually means the unit will be so situational as to be badly handicapped in actual gameplay.

"Well as long as I have cover, or hug ruins"
"Well as long as my opponent isn't deep striking or outflanking"

Centurions are excellent fire platforms, but we already know how to deal with expensive fire platforms. We've been fighting groups of long fangs, broadsides, and obliterators for ages. 220-230 points and 80 bucks for 3 guys is A LOT.

9/4/2013 12:00:21 pm

It is a lot in actual money terms, I definitely agree. They are expensive as hell. Points-wise, they are cheaper than what we were paying for CML Terminators for "less" firepower. Though the tank-hunters was very nice. I play (and really, everyone should) on boards that feature 25-35% cover on them. With at least one fully LOS blocking piece, usually in the middle. Cover isn't an issue. Its almost harder to NOT be in cover against enemy shooting.

The thing with the Centurians though is that you can't just missile spam them to death like we could with those other units you listed because their armor is better and the higher toughness prevents instant death. In the meantime, they clog fire-lanes with a withering hail of firepower. Honestly? ~460 points for that kind of power is definitely worth it to me. The redundancy helps minimize their losses, but you can put out the hurt easily. In addition, if you combo those units with advancing CC elements, then your opponent will have to decide where to focus their attention. The guys that are shooting them to death or the ones that are about to stab them to death? Its going to be a balance, for sure. But I don't think its impossible in the least.

AdroitSquirrel link

9/4/2013 05:31:03 am

I don't know I think Centurions are going to earn a spot in quite a few lists. My FLGS has a points program and I've been storing points away for a rainy day. I wouldn't normally spring on an 80 dollar modal right out of the gate, but spending a few points to lower the price seems like a worthwhile risk.

I think the Centurions are going to serve my needs as a weapons platform nicely. I've always had a hard time taking a Dreadnought as a moving weapons platform with all the Plasma and Melta across the board. With 2 wounds a piece it'll take some intense fire and a lot of attention to take them down and that's attention not spent on my other units racing across the board. Sure a Demolisher cannon can insta-kill them, but what won't face a similar fate. But I guess we'll find out over the next month if they're a points sink or not.

9/4/2013 12:02:18 pm

Exactly. Time will tell if they are worth it or all bunk. I'm thinking it'll be the former though. Their upside is just too much to ignore.

9/4/2013 02:24:25 pm

@greggles: The Centurions are far from situational, with the weapons they can bring to bear they can take down elite heavy infantry and light tanks with ease.

@Laeroth: Yeah I realize the HB and Hurricanes aren't really effective against MEQ, but the imagery is really cool. Now if they are able to take drop pods(I forget if that was in the rumors or not) that would make them(in just about any loadout) quite nasty.

9/5/2013 12:57:26 am

Excellent points guys. Will take into consideration!

For those interested, here's the stat-lines of them.
http://imgur.com/a/LOtys

and points costs
"centurions (devs/CC) = 60 points less than a landraider
las/gravcannon with amp = weapon upgrades are a powerfist minus 5 points.
you may also give the sergeant splitfire for the cost of a power weapon minus 5 points"

From BOLS

Elsus

9/5/2013 06:34:34 am

Now that Thunderfires are Barrage it is hard to resist not using at least one...

John Stiening link

9/5/2013 10:47:22 am

If you haven't played with a thunderfire cannon, it is(possibly was) a stand out unit. I used one in the narrative event at the NOVA Open and it never failed to impress. My very first opponent fielded a horde tyrannid list, and the TF is what kept the game going for me. without it I would have lost many hours earlier than I did. I would consider having two TF and once centurion squad. Bugs in cover are a major pain if you can't void their cover save. Additionally, the TF is kind of cool to paint. Both are new units to BT players. Take both!

elotar

9/5/2013 08:28:44 pm

I think whirlwinds are better (if they'll be 65 points) AP4 large blast is the best way to kill present xenos filled meta.

9/6/2013 11:43:25 am

Ugh. 280 points for three. Sad face.

9/7/2013 03:14:44 am

Ya 290 if you give the sarg an omni... You could almost take a stormraven and a dread for the same cost.

Question...I notice it says in the crusader section can take "power weapon for X points". Does that mean we can take power axes again?

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