Prepping for Nova Open: Some intriguing thoughts...

8/4/2011

In my quest for creating the best list I possibly can for Nova Open, some things have still nagged at me about my current list. Don't get me wrong, in all of my playtesting, I've yet to lose a game with it (got about 20 games in against various armies). So the army is good. But, we're talking about the Nova Open. There will be pretty much all of the best players in the country there, plus some from other countries around the world.

So am I 100% confident that I can beat a horde-based infantry army with my current list against these players? No, I'm not. Thus, I've been trying to find ways to up my anti-infantry potential in the list without sacrificing the core and redundancy of the list. Let me tell you, its hard. Very hard. :O

Anyway, there were some things I was mulling over and one better ones was this list:

HQ:
* Emperor's Champion w/ Black Sword, Bolt Pistol, Armor of Faith, and the Vow: "Abhor the Witch, Destroy the Witch." [110]

Elites:
* Sword Brethren Terminators: 5 Terminators w/ 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers, 5 Storm Bolters, 5 Power Fists, and Tank-Hunters. [265]
* Sword Brethren Terminators: 5 Terminators w/ 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers, 5 Storm Bolters, 5 Power Fists, and Tank-Hunters. [265]

Troops:
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Lascannon. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons and Searchlights. [192]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Lascannon. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons and Searchlights. [192]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Lascannon. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons and Searchlights. [192]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Lascannon. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons and Searchlights. [192]

Fast Attack:
* Land Speeder Squadron: 1 Land Speeder w/ 1 Heavy Bolter and 1 Typhoon Missile Launcher. [70]
* Land Speeder Squadron: 1 Land Speeder w/ 1 Heavy Bolter and 1 Typhoon Missile Launcher. [70]
* Land Speeder Squadron: 1 Land Speeder w/ 1 Heavy Bolter and 1 Typhoon Missile Launcher. [70]

Heavy Support:
* Predator Destructor w/ Autocannon, Heavy Bolter Side-Sponsons, Hunter-Killer Missile, and Searchlights. [126]
* Predator Destructor w/ Autocannon, Heavy Bolter Side-Sponsons, Hunter-Killer Missile, and Searchlights. [126]
* Predator Destructor w/ Autocannon, Heavy Bolter Side-Sponsons, Hunter-Killer Missile, and Searchlights. [126]

Total Points: [1996]

So what has changed? Well, I lose the threat that my other Predators give me. Which makes my Typhoons and Razorbacks a big target. I also lose their tank busting power, which gives my opponent a better shot at getting across the board. Losing 6 Lascannons is a big deal. So, did I actually gain anything useful?

You tell me. Okay, first off, I know the argument about the 110 point AC/HB Predators. Yes, they are expensive in comparison to Vanilla Marines. Ignore that and concentrate on what they do well in the list: kill infantry. However, they aren't half bad at AV11 suppression with their Autocannons. Also added is a Hunter-Killer Missile on each Predator to help in the AT role when they are called upon to shoot tanks. Yes, its one shot and 15 points each. It also gives me another 11% shot to kill the vehicle.

So the argument is that these guys will be able to provide me with the needed AI missing from the list, but it comes at the expense of AT. Do I need the AI badly enough in my other list to warrant the change? Or should I risk it and hope that all of the high strength weaponry/frag missiles/storm bolters will be enough to stop a horde army? Let me know what you think. I'm kind of torn right now and I could use the advice.

9 Comments

Kirby link

8/3/2011 10:24:44 pm

Did Mike answer your EMAIL? :)

Algesan link

8/3/2011 11:24:52 pm

45 points HK missilex3
111 points Current Predator build

140 TLLC/HF/XA Dreadnought

I'd stick with your old list unless you really really think you are going to run into a horde big enough to swamp it.

My fear with a horde army is tied to the scenario. Because they are so huge, it legitimately takes extra time to set them up, it legitimately takes extra time to move them, etc., etc.

After sucking up that extra time, it leaves less time for my list to try to shoot them down to size, especially when you are throwing a lot of blasts around. It is hard to get the KP or to hold (or even contest) anything if you only get in three turns. Of course, a lot of how well that helps depends on the tournament scoring system.

Trignama

8/4/2011 12:20:16 am

ML I think you need to leave the preds as they were, you have a lot of AI in the form of frag templates, and I dunno about you, but when I've needed my typhoons to switch to an anti ifantry role they get the job done and do it well.

You have two squads of tac termies that can fire 10 storm bolter shots and drop 4 frag templates on any horde infantry unit. (Granted within 24 inches) plus 3 land speeders and marines with bolters if needed. That's enough AI in itself and I know I don't have to tell you, but a combined assault from dual 5 man tac termie squads is quite a bit of AI in itself. I really don't think you should change the predators role since melta is pretty much non-existent in ur list ur gonna need all the lascannon shots you can muster.

I personally do not like the change at all and felt a lot more comfortable with your previous list.

sonsoftaurus link

8/4/2011 01:08:53 am

So the difference is basically HB sponsons +HKM vs. lascannon sponsons on the preds?

So you get like 5 more dead Orks a turn, if they're in the open. 30 over six turns, less if HBs out of range of desired target for a turn, less if only goes five turns. And you may not be able to concentrate fire, and in many cases just weakening a horde unit can be irrelevant at the end - 20 boys on an objective holds it just as well as 30.

HBs can also be fun against venom/raider spam, though lascannons would work there too.

While you may run into a horde, it's IMO less likely as you progress. I'd think that you're more likely to see multi-wagon Orks instead of a green tide. The extra lascannons would be a good help there.

The lascannons would also serve you for times you need to move to get a clear AT shot - having the option then to fire a lascannon or ac vs. having to rely on the ac could be helpful.

I'd probably say stick with lascannons. More helpful against more armies, while the hbs help some, but maybe not enough, vs. a few armies.

DooMarn

8/4/2011 02:22:28 am

I agree with the others, you have enough AI and you need the Lascannons more. Stick to the original list, this doubt comes to everyone before a tournament.

Facing a horde is like making love to a fat woman, you just use another tactic to get the job done. No need to change the tools.

BroLo

8/4/2011 03:07:30 am

Not a fan of HB preds for BT. The extra cost is just way too much for me to consider them. I'd prefer to see AssCans on the terminators rather than HBs on the Predators. Similar number of shots, same AP and much better at light anti-tanking/supression.

6 Lascannons + 4 Tank-hunting AssCans Vs. 8 Tank-Hunting CMLs, 6 HBs is a tough choice though. The former forces your terminators into midfield, which for your list is not great. That's where I prefer my terminators to be.

I also think you're a bit short on Troops.

Oh... and where's the melta?

Devjon link

8/4/2011 09:59:30 am

First impressions, I don't like it. The Hunter-Killer Missiles just seem like a waste of money at 15 points for a single shot. Now, if they were 5 points or so, then they would be worth taking. But I tried to keep an open mind and Mathhammered the changes between the older list and this one.

Making the same assumptions that are made in the Metric system (including a number for Ork Boyz killed by shooting). The difference actually surprised me, but not in a pleasant way. Comparing the two, your newer list will only kill about 4 more Orks per turn than the last, but it is not quite as good against Marines and worse against Vehicles. So you gain an almost negligible advantage (less than 10%) by making this change, for a measurable loss in other areas (over 15% against light vehicles, 26% against AV 14). I like this change even less now.

If you want some extra Anti-Horde, another option would be to change the Crusader Squads to be equipped with Missile Launchers instead of Lascannons. You'd have 20 extra points which you could spend on things like Smoke Launchers for all but one of your tanks (to be used when they get Shaken/Stunned), or Extra Armor on you Razorbacks (improving Mobility), or two Neophytes (further improving your ability against Infantry as well as increasing your Scoring Bodies), or buying one HKM and having 5 points left over.

The comparison to your original list would be a loss of Anti-Tank (though not as much as your suggestion, only 3% against light vehicles and 17% against AV 14) while you gain that much wanted Anti-Horde option without sacrificing units that can effectively target Vehicles (except AV 14, admittedly). So, compared to your Hunter-Killer idea, less of a loss in Anti-Tank (though really only against Heavy Armor) while maintaining Duality (for the Predators) and Redundancy against Vehicles.

Marshal Laeroth link

8/4/2011 07:24:10 pm

@ Kirby

Yes, he did. Thanks. And I know have my email in hand for those nay-sayers! Don't like my conversion (opponent)? Too bad. Mike approved it a month in advance! Hahaha! Deal with it. *continues rolling die*

@ Devjon

Its an option I've considered, however, I don't have the bits to build such models. Well, technically I do, but they are painted in Ultramarine colors so that doesn't help me all that much. It'd take too long to strip them and repaint. If I have the extra time before Nova, then I'll consider making the move.

@ BroLo

Who needs melta? I intend to show that isn't not always needed. ;)

As for the Troops, its a concern, but with the army type...there simply is not the points to add more. And its yet to be an issue, even against competent opponents.

@ Everyone

Okay, so everyone pretty much agreed with what my thoughts were. I just needed some backup, because the little voices in my head like complicating things.

Its not that I don't have "enough" AI, its that is kind of spread into 5 separate units, three of which are pretty fragile. The rest requires them to get kinda close range, at which point, I'm not sure if I'll be able to dislodge them. Or more specifically, will I be able to dislodge an infantry unit of good number from their objective from long range (i.e. gretchin)? Its a good question.

At Nova Open, there will ALWAYS be objectives/table quarters as part of the mission parameters. I'm not concerned about holding my objectives/quarters. I'm not necessarily concerned with the middle one either, as I should be able to deny/claim that one with reasonable success as well. But will I have enough firepower to dislodge my opponent? I do against MEQ (even with cover) because there are not very many of them, but will I against horde? Especially with the amount of terrain Nova tables will be featuring? We'll see.

Sonsoftaurus makes a good point when he said that 20 Boys hold an objective just as well as 30 points. Shooting them with Heavy Bolters probably won't dislodge them from an objective unless they are out in the open. Which isn't likely. And I don't have a whole lot of time to do it, especially if my opponent takes their sweet time moving. :/

Anyway, the list will stay the way it is I think. The more I think about it, the more I second-guess my playtesting. lol! Plus, I'm already neck deep in my painting.

8/5/2011 01:23:41 am

Dislodging one unit of any size, even in cover while GtG for the +1? Pile on the blasts. The problem comes when you leave it for too late, but I've been able to shoot 20-30 models off an objective in a couple of turns easily enough with a combination of THDC Terminators and Typhoons.

Yes, I do pack more Typhoons than you do, but usually after a few turns I start having a couple gone from stray fire directed at them and I'm starting to spread them out to get some shots on different bits.

Remember, if he is trying to hold an objective, he isn't going to want to spread out all over the place as blast defense because if he does, you tag one side and "defenders react" will pull him off the objective. Nice dense targets.

Prepping for Nova Open: Some intriguing thoughts...

Leave a Reply.

Laeroth's Blog

Archives