Prepping for Nova Open: The Great List Debate

3/17/2011

I believe that I've hammered out most of the kinks in my army and how I think it should play. This has narrowed my focus down to two separate lists, both very similar, but both heavily focused on the Alpha Strike element.

Before I go on, I thank everyone who has commented and lent their opinions or suggestions. There are even a couple of you that I know will be at Nova Open, so there is always a chance I'll be facing you...but yet you still have offered up suggestions. Its appreciated, even if I don't always use them. :)

This post will be much shorter than the others because I think I've gotten them to a point where I feel comfortable. The problem is, there are two separate lists that I like (I'm leaning more towards one of them, but I won't disclose which yet) and I'm having difficulties deciding which one I should use. So I'd like your opinions on the matter. I'll post both lists and give a few reasons why I like each, then open the floor for comments. The first list is the one I posted in the comment section of my last blog post.

HQ:
* Marshal w/ Storm Bolter, Power Weapon, and Krak Grenades; Terminator Command Squad: 4 Terminators w/ 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers, 4 Storm Bolters, 1 Power Weapon, 3 Powerfists, and Tank-Hunters. [327]
* Emperor's Champion w/ Black Sword, Bolt Pistol, Armor of Faith, and the Vow: "Abhor the Witch, Destroy the Witch." [110]

Troops:
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Lascannon. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons and Searchlights. [192]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Lascannon. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons and Searchlights. [192]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Lascannon. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons and Searchlights. [192]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Lascannon. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons and Searchlights. [192]

Fast Attack:
* Land Speeder Squadron: 2 Land Speeders w/ 2 Heavy Bolters and 2 Typhoon Missile Launchers. [140]
* Land Speeder Squadron: 2 Land Speeders w/ 2 Heavy Bolters and 2 Typhoon Missile Launchers. [140]
* Land Speeder Squadron: 2 Land Speeders w/ 2 Heavy Bolters and 2 Typhoon Missile Launchers. [140]

Heavy Support:
* Predator Destructor w/ Autocannon and Lascannon Side-Sponsons. [125]
* Predator Destructor w/ Autocannon and Lascannon Side-Sponsons. [125]
* Predator Destructor w/ Autocannon and Lascannon Side-Sponsons. [125]

Total Points: [2000]

This list provides me with a great deal of firepower first turn. One of the main draws to this list is the fact that the Marshal is included. He gives my vulnerable infantry a Ld 10, which will help immensely when it comes time to test for "Kill Them All" and "Righteous Zeal". This will ensure that my Troops don't fall back when they shouldn't, as well as being able to shoot the optimal target a vast majority of the time.

In addition, the CML terminator squad is actually a legitimate CC-threat, even without the "Accept Any Challenge" Vow. Between the Marshal and the Sergeant, I'm able to kill a few guys before they are able to throw all of their attacks on my Powerfist terminators (who are also armed with my CMLs). Because of this, I can use them as a speed-bump if necessary. With their durability, they might even survive. It is sad that I don't have the points to give the Marshal a Storm Shield, so there is a danger of him getting instant death. Oh well, can't have everything. ;)

This list successfully tabled 1/2 of a Loganwing army in one turn, prompting a quick concede from my opponent. Even I was impressed.

Here is the second list:

HQ:
* Emperor's Champion w/ Black Sword, Bolt Pistol, Armor of Faith, and the Vow: "Abhor the Witch, Destroy the Witch." [110]

Elites:
* Sword Brethren Terminator Squad: 5 Terminators w/ 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers, 5 Storm Bolters, 5 Powerfists, and Tank-Hunters. [265]

Troops:
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Lascannon. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons and Searchlights. [192]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Lascannon. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons and Searchlights. [192]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Lascannon. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons and Searchlights. [192]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Lascannon. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons and Searchlights. [192]

Fast Attack:
* Land Speeder Squadron: 2 Land Speeders w/ 2 Heavy Bolters and 2 Typhoon Missile Launchers. [140]
* Land Speeder Squadron: 2 Land Speeders w/ 2 Heavy Bolters and 2 Typhoon Missile Launchers. [140]
* Land Speeder Squadron: 2 Land Speeders w/ 2 Heavy Bolters and 2 Typhoon Missile Launchers. [140]

Heavy Support:
* Predator Annihilator w/ Twin-Linked Lascannon, Lascannon Side-Sponsons, and Searchlight. [146]
* Predator Annihilator w/ Twin-Linked Lascannon, Lascannon Side-Sponsons, and Searchlight. [146]
* Predator Annihilator w/ Twin-Linked Lascannon and Lascannon Side-Sponsons. [145]

Total Points: [2000]

This list has nearly identical amounts of firepower as the first one. The main attraction to this particular list, however, is the upgrade of the Predators. This will give me much improved chances to kill enemy vehicles, especially those with higher armor values. On the other hand, they aren't quite as good at firing at infantry and monstrous creatures due to their lower number of shots. But this is possibly mitigated by the twin-linked status of the turret Lascannon.

Also, the tactical Terminator squad is slightly more durable than the Marshal's Terminator Command squad due to the improved armor on the fifth model. Unfortunately, I no longer have the wound allocation that I used to have in previous editions of the list due to the removal of the chainfists. Still, this unit is sufficient to hold up units in assault, so is a valid bubble-wrap unit.

With that being said, I open the floor to you guys. Let me hear your thoughts. :)

27 Comments

Algesan link

3/17/2011 12:38:11 am

You want a Storm Shield? Make it a Castellan and drop one of the weapons. Hey, you can add back in the chain fist if you lose the Storm Bolter....

I'm still not seeing where you split the hair on not putting Terminator armor on the HQ choice. Yes, I could have a power armor HQ join an elite Terminator (of either flavor), but not the Cmd squad according to the third sentence in the Sword Brethren Terminator Command Squad entry.

FYI, target priorities I'd be using would be Lazorbacks, Speeders, Predators. Unless, you have your squads dismounted and not near enough to embark, then I might do the Speeders first. I just don't see enough threat from your Lascannons. Oh, not that they aren't nasty, but I'm not riding around in big steel boxes waiting to get my arse blown off and I have a 33-50% chance of shrugging off any hits on my troops depending on the cover I have.

GDMNW link

3/17/2011 01:50:30 am

Interesting.

Taking the speeders certainly ups the vehicle count and improves your firepower considerably.

Good lists.

Act of God

3/17/2011 02:07:39 am

Of the two lists, I would choose the second list. The second list has a greater chance of destroying all of your opponent's transports in the first turn (after the second turn they'll be lucky to have any vehicles left) and once those threats are eliminated, you will have two or possibly three more turns to bring your guns to bear on their infantry, which should be enough to either kill them all or cripple their ability to hurt you. As you pointed out, the second list is also has a slightly more durable Terminator squad (plus it tabled half a loganwing army in one turn, by the end of turn three they would almost certainly have been completely destroyed). You said in your previous thread that the biggest threat to you would likely be drop pod lists, but since they never come down with their entire army at the same time when they want to, you have more than enough firepower to annihilate every unit they drop as they come in piecemeal.

Devjon

3/17/2011 09:17:39 am

I'd say the first one. The Autocannons will do better at killing Infantry while still being able to break their transports. The only problem being if you face heavily armored vehicles which will be resilient to those Auto Cannons. But even then, you should have enough firepower.

The first one is also better because of the Leadership bonus. It isn't necessary but it does give you more control over what your units do.

I don't see the full benefit of your Crusader Squads having Plasma Guns; the 'Gets Hot' seems like it would outweigh the increased S and AP over a regular Bolter. But if you drop your Krak Grenades and all four Plasma Guns then you will have enough points for that required Terminator Armor that Algesian pointed out.

Cory

3/17/2011 12:02:40 pm

I'm gonna have to go with list 1. Remember cyclone missile launchers give you allocation for your terminators! Also I don't have the codex on me so unsure on the marshal with terminator armour thing but i think his points value is justified in the list.
TL lascannons over autocannons is an insurance thing I believe. By that I mean you sacrifice th chance of 2 hits for 1 close to guaranteed hit. One thing overlooked is the lascannons lower AP which may be of some use when you come up against lists with little to no vehicles.
Personaly unless you're shooting at landraiders (monoliths can be simply ignored, it's not hard to phase out) I think the lascannons aren't worth the points for the upgrade. Yes I'd prefer it but not for the extra points.

If you're gonna go that way with expensive fire support I'd take a vindicator. No matter if I play chaos or Templars, vindicators draw a ridiculous amount of fire, and righly so because for many armies this tank Is enough to squash ther best/most expensive squad. Just another thought to confuse you further because I know you don't have the points ;)

3/17/2011 12:27:11 pm

What about trying the second list with three Vindicators instead of your three Predator Annihilators? Sure they have a shorter range, and draw a lot of fire, but with all your other shooting, three large blast templates at S10 could really hurt (plus the increased damage to vehicles from ordnance). Personally I prefer Predators if nothing else for the fact that their main gun is turret mounted rather than hull mounted (last time I used a Vidicator, it got immobilized turn 1, then avoided and ignored for most of the game), but the potential for destruction is there.

3/17/2011 02:58:29 pm

Twin Link vs 2 shots have the exact same chance of hitting once and the exact same chance of missing. The difference is that Twin Link cannot hit twice. IIRC, it is 4/9 hit twice (which is hit once for TL), 4/9 hit once and 1/9 miss.

True, the Trilas has a better chance of popping a vehicle, but it is only a few percent more (~7% better vs AV12 and ~5% vs AV11). In the meantime, it will never ever kill more than three infantry at a time and both weapons are 2+.

I liked the triple Vindicator list, even if it meant detailing the four Lazorbacks to flank guards, but, that is too much like a one trick pony. A couple of lucky shots and <poof>. Of course, a couple of lucky shots with the Vindicators.....

3/17/2011 04:23:16 pm

I think a single vindicator would benefit the list without losing much. It's got a bit more duality than a predator too, you can pop a land raider and kill the squad inside in 2 turns if it's left unattended

Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link

3/17/2011 06:43:16 pm

First off, thanks everyone for their comments! Keep them coming! I love seeing everyone's thoughts and discussion. Makes my list better in the end, which I do appreciate. And hopefully someone will glean something useful from the whole process. :D

@Algesan
Regarding the Marshal without Terminator armor and his Terminator Command squad. I get what I say based on what the codex gives me. The Marshal says that he can LEAD a Command Squad or Terminator Squad. It does not give any restrictions. Then you have the Terminator Squad entry, which says that characters or other models may only ATTACH if they have terminator armor.

Because the Marshal is leading the Terminator Command Squad, it therefore counts as a retinue for all intents and purposes. Another IC's attachment to a retinue usually allows you to leave if if you wish (i.e. WH Inquisitor). The terms are very different in both gameplay and describing the unit.

However, we have some additional rules that spell out the difference between leading and attaching on Page 22 of the codex. You can also find the BRB rules on it if you care to look, as they explain difference a bit better.

Hopefully this explains my position a little better. :)

I might knock him down to Castellan for the Storm Shield, but I don't think I really need it in the scheme of things. As for my opponent's target priorities, yeah...unfortunately, this is something I cannot get around. The Preds are a bit more dangerous than before in both lists, but ultimately, I have to maximize my firepower output if the list is going to be effective.

@Act of God
Actually, the first list was the one that tabled the 1/2 Loganwing army in one turn (technically two turns, since I went first. Had nothing to shoot at first turn though). After playing it against a drop list, I'm far less concerned than I was before. I'm confident that I'll be able to manage, especially with the piecemeal rules of everything else in the game (minus a few exceptions).

As for the Vindicator suggestion, earlier in my thought process, I created a list with Vindicators in them. But I've since discarded that list, since it really did force me to lose out on too much shooting otherwise. I wasn't sure I'd be able to bring enough firepower throughout the game to win.

@Devjon
The "Get's Hot!" rule is something I'm not particularly worried about, to be honest. Because you only have a 1/6 chance of getting that result, then another 2/3 chance to pass your armor save...it comes out to being a 5.6% chance to die from it, per shot taken. :D

@Cory
Haha. You are completely right. Its actually really tough when you get to the nitty, gritty stuff. When I'm sitting here trying to optimize my tournament list, its all about maximizing my points. Unfortunately, there is a core of things that I need to have (4x Crusaders) that take up a lot of points. lol! I want more points, but I like the 2000 point level. I know others will be faced with the same decisions as I will be. ;)

3/18/2011 12:21:16 am

Oh, that is nice parsing, but it works.

"What, point juggling? What is that?", says the man with twelve to fifteen 1000 point Black Templar pod lists and four variations at 2000 points.

Ok, admittedly, those are all pre-FAQ. Things have changed since then...

3/18/2011 08:35:29 am

Don't get me wrong, I used to hold the same stance as you. But then I had it explained to me by the Rulez Boyz from GW, back when they actually accepted phone calls.

It made sense back then and with the current rules, it makes even more sense now. The terms are very much different in their definition and use ingame. :D

BigDunc

3/18/2011 02:15:03 pm

I would say neither list exactly as they're posted.

But I would start with List 2, downgrade two Tri-Las Preds, find 5pts, and upgrade three Typhoons with MMs.

3/18/2011 07:29:59 pm

Okay, I don't get the Multimeltas on Typhoon Speeders. Trading in a 36" weapon for a 24" max and 12" effective weapon to pair with a 48" weapon? Save 10 points and go with the old MM/HF Speeder. Get a squadron of those and they can toast anything before they die.

Of course, they lose their greatest asset, especially in a mech list, which comes from having friendly targets the enemy's big, nasty, long ranged AT needs to take care of first. Using the Multimelta slams then right into the area where torrent of fire with ST4 or above can hurt you as well as the follow up assault.

3/18/2011 08:39:09 pm

You gain versatility and the option of having melta, and you lose... pretty much nothing.

The heavy bolter is acceptable on the Typhoon because it's free, and it damn well better be because it doesn't get used that often. However, it's nice to have versus hordes, so lets do a comparison.

Let's assume the Preds and Typhoons from List 2 are shooting at Ork Boyz in the open. On average, assuming all frag missiles hit 4 Boyz every single time, the Preds and Typhoons take out 37.5 Orks.

With the changes I suggested, the same six units shooting at Boyz in the open, with the same assumptions, kill 35.9 Orks.

You lose the death of 1, maybe 2, Orks.

What you gain is the power of melta mounted on a versatile platform. Just because the MM is equipped doesn't mean the Typhoon has to move forward. Stay back and shoot with almost the exact same AT firepower the list had before (minus 2 TL-LC and plus 2 Autocannons), except now when tanks get within 24" you have an additional 3 "bloodstrike missiles" to fire on top of the krak missiles. When they get closer still, then you have melta weaponry.

Having melta weapons also frees up firepower from shooting at Landraiders and lets it shoot at something it's more likely kill. MM Typhoons will also come in handy versus deep strikers, like FNP Blood Angels, Dreadnaughts, Raveners (or similarly T4 with multiple wounds), and Trygons.

Gain a lot, lose a little.

I want to change my suggestion a little though. Use the same 40pts from the Tri-Las downgrades, except upgrade only 2 Typhoons, find 5 points, and replace the last Tri-Las with a PotMS Vindicator. You basically have the firepower within 24", but lose a little outside of that; but you gain a fire magnet that doesn't have to advance (but can) yet can't be ignored. Set it in cover and use the front armor, and watch aggressive armies cringe as they move towards your gunline.

3/18/2011 08:41:51 pm

Edit, last paragraph:
You basically have the *same* firepower within 24"...

3/20/2011 12:52:00 am

Okay, I missed your mathhammer. Frags are easy, they hit 4 per shot or 16 per squadron and then wound on 4s, which means 8 per squadron or 24 kills.

Tri;las Predators only kill 1.85 Orks per tank for a total of 5.55 kills.

Heavy bolters kill 1.33 Orks per gun, which would be 2.67 per squadron or a total of 8 kills.

Of course this is part of my case against the Trilas Predators, the pair of heavy bolters on a Speeder squadron is more killy against MEQ.

Heh, I've cracked or helped crack transports with the HBs. They beat the crap out of depending on melta that misses 33% of the time for the job IMO.

3/20/2011 03:00:39 am

Just to clarify, this is what I'm comparing:

Grouping 1) 3 Tri-Las Preds and 3 HB Typhoons
to
Grouping 2) 1 Tri-Las, 2 Auto/Las Preds, 3 HB Typhoons, and 3 MM Typhoons

Against Orks, Grouping 1 kills what I said above, 37.5 Boyz. Grouping 2 kills 35.9 Boyz.

Change nothing except the armor value to 3+ and Grouping 1 kills 16.2 MEQ while Grouping 2 kills 15.8 MEQ.

So, No, heavy bolters are not more effective against MEQ. I think what you might not be considering are the Autocannons that make up for some of the lost heavy bolter shots.

The mathhammer just shows how little anti-infantry firepower is lost when changing from Group 1 to 2. What's important is what you gain in terms of anti-tank and deep strike defense.

3/20/2011 03:01:33 am

I guess if I registered I could edit, yea? Oh well.

Edit: Grouping 1 is 3 Tri-Las and 6 HB Typhoons

3/20/2011 10:45:06 am

It doesn't seem to help me edit my posts. I'm looking over my scratch pad from before I went to church and it looks like I left out armor and cover saves from my calculations. Personally, I consider everything to have a 5+ cover save, I've seen way too many 4+ ones.

The biggest difference (and the imponderable one) is that the MM Speeders must come within 24" to fire the MM. In other words, in range to be shot by just about anything the enemy has.

Ahh, I'm going to toss my hands up on this one. I get around it by being able to use some of my Crusaders as suicide melta squads.

I will admit, I like the idea of shoehorning in a PotMS Vindicator into the line somehow.

3/20/2011 11:30:31 am

Ok, lets assume the MMs are out of range. Group 1 still kills 37.5 and Group 2 now kills 34.3. Still not that big of a difference.

And again, just because you have a weapon doesn't mean you have to use it... but when you need it and have it, that's when you see it's true value. I have never heard a player say "man, I wish I had a heavy bolter right about now". But melta weaponry... you hear that all the time.

3/21/2011 10:03:59 am

Unfortunately, Weebly doesn't have an edit feature on their blogs. Yet. *goes to suggest it* :(

Anyway, you guys have given me much to think about. I want to get a couple more playtested games in to see where I stand, then I'll make the final decision then.

Thanks for the input everyone. I'll have my final one up in a few days. In the meantime, I have another article that I'll be posting up shortly that should spark some discussion as well. :)

3/22/2011 04:53:15 am

I played a game on friday using a 1500 point version of your second list against Eldar.
My list contained:
HQ:
* Emperor's Champion w/ Black Sword, Bolt Pistol, Armor of Faith, and the Vow: "Abhor the Witch, Destroy the Witch." [110]

Elites:
* Sword Brethren Terminator Squad: 5 Terminators w/ 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers, 5 Storm Bolters, 5 Powerfists, and Tank-Hunters. [265]

Troops:
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Lascannon. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons, Extra Armour and Searchlights. [197]
* Crusader Squad: 6 Initiates w/ 4 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Lascannon. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons, Extra Armour and Searchlights. [213]
* Crusader Squad: 6 Initiates w/ 4 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Lascannon. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons and Searchlights. [213]

Fast Attack:
* Land Speeder Squadron: 1 Land Speeder w/ 1 Heavy Bolter and 1 Typhoon Missile Launcher. [70]
* Land Speeder Squadron: 1 Land Speeder w/ 1 Heavy Bolter and 1 Typhoon Missile Launcher. [70]
* Land Speeder Squadron: 1 Land Speeder w/ 1 Heavy Bolter and 1 Typhoon Missile Launcher. [70]

Heavy Support:
* Predator Annihilator w/ Twin-Linked Lascannon, Lascannon Side-Sponsons, and Searchlight. [146]
* Predator Annihilator w/ Twin-Linked Lascannon, Lascannon Side-Sponsons, and Searchlight. [146]

Total: [1500]

My opponent was using (no idea on eldar points):

HQ

Eldred

Avatar

Troops

Dire Avengers (10) w/ Exarch in Wave Serpent w/ Twin-Linked Bright Lance

Dire Avengers (10) w/ Exarch in Wave Serpent w/ Twin-Linked Bright Lance

Guardian Squad: 10-15 Guardians (can't recall exact squad size) w/ Scatter Laser Heavy Weapon Platform

Heavy Support

Fire Prism w/ Night Spinner

Fire Prism w/ Night Spinner

Due to the dice gods abandoning me throughout the entirety of the game (All my weapons produced 1 dead wave serpent, a few dead dire avengers and a few dead guardians, that's it and I changed dice cubes 3 times that game hoping to find dice that wouldn't cheat me) and the fact that I've never fought Eldar before, so had no idea what to expect, I was devastated. I absolutely hate fortune now, actually, come to think of it, I hate all Eldar now.

Neophyte Bob

3/22/2011 05:11:19 am

Have you considered using PotMS on the preds (any variety) to allow them to use their fire more efficiently? For example, for the price of 2 of the speeders all 3 preds could get PotMS and EA, plus a handful of points to use elsewhere. Overall you could potentially shoot at one extra target plus more resiliency and versatility on the preds which are already a tougher target than the speeders.
As a side question, do you have to declare all the shots from a pred including the PotMS one before firing, or can you see how the others work out before you choose where the MS shoots? I can't remember off-hand.

3/22/2011 06:25:16 am

Ok. At home now so I can play around with lists without being frowned at.
Starting with list 2, dropping 1 speeder and changing the preds to AutoLas allows enough pts to give them all PotMS, EA and SL with 27 pts left (2 CFs for the termies?).
You lose the cover shinanigans on the lone speeder so maybe make it a crack suicide melter speeder? :) or just hide it behind the preds for cover.

3/23/2011 03:51:33 am

I had another thought in favor of the first list. It seems pretty obvious that it is a strong Alpha Strike list and it only has the drawback of Autocannons compared to Twin-Linked Lascannons. They aren't much different and what the Autocannons lose in anti-armor they gain in anti-infantry so they have more use once you've killed the vehicles or against infantry.

But the advantage that I think of is that very loss of anti-armor. It makes the list more useful against a variety of armies, less specialized. You lose very little with the change but also gain the extra leadership which will really help if your opponent puts something that screens his forces or simply places something tough closer to you. In the latter case you will have to make quite a few Kill Them All checks if it is something you don't want to shoot at first.

Also, what if you face another Alpha Strike list? Granted, you will have a good chance of being able to see most of their army but there is a 50/50 chance that you will go second. That, against an Alpha Strike army, is about as certain as you can be of losing. This may be my inexperience but it seems like you will want a back-up plan so that you still have a fair chance if you do go second.

3/23/2011 05:41:53 am

Kill Them All only applies to your infantry units, vehicles can still fire at any target they wish.

Once I get past my n00b issues on deployment and targeting, which are the main two reasons I've lost the games I've lost, including the ones I've fought back and made close, the hardest list I've seen on a board to fight is an IG mech list with thirteen vehicles. Five heavy support vehicles, Vendetta (Valkyrie?) and seven Chimeras. Lots of plasmaguns in the squads riding the Chimeras. First you have to blast holes in the Chimeras then turn on the big guns. With missing, you will probably need three turns to crack everything given that he will degrading your AT at the same time.

Found one of my older lists that could be fun if you want lots of melta.
Canoness (BoSL, Bolter, Meltabomb) _with_ Celestian Retinue, 3x Bolters, 2x Meltas, Immolator [208]

Celestian w/ VSS (BoSL & Bolter), 2x Bolters, 2x Meltas, Immolator [165]

Dominion w/ VSS (BoSL & Bolter), 2x Bolters, 2x Meltas, Immolator [139]

The Immolators can move 12" and fire TL Heavy Flamers or you can pay 60 and only move 6" but fire TL Multimeltas for a 30" normal threat range, 18" enhanced threat range and 12" super threat range.

You get 1 Faith point per squad (2 for Canoness) and all of them are small so they can use the AS=IS defensive Act of Faith. Of course, with Martyrdom you get points back as Faithful models and squads die so if you took the entire group, it would be a base of 5 Faith (Canoness(x2), Retinue, Celestian, Dominion VSS), but have a potential to use 9 (8 if the Canoness is the last survivor).

The BoSL makes every friendly unit within 6" use the Ld of the character using it and it makes them Stubborn.

3/24/2011 07:16:10 pm

Yikes! Obviously, I'm backed up on these comments, so I'll catch up now. :)

@Neophyte Bob
Yes, at one point I had considered PotMS for my vehicles (even a variety of them), but in the end, I didn't like how many points they were costing me. To make them work, you really need to build a list around them. Which is something I really didn't do. 90 points is a LOT to spend on PotMS, especially when they are the least likely vehicle to be targeted by my opponent. If I was facing me, the Land Speeders and Razorbacks die first.

Yeah, the Predators would be able to fire at two targets, but the AC by itself isn't all that impressive. It would be different if placed on a Tri-Las Pred, but I simply don't have the points for it. I'm considering the possibility for 'Ard Boys though, since it sounds like that will be taking place in the Summer.

And to answer your question, you have to declare all of your shots (and their targets) before you fire.

@Devjon
Now that the discussion has started to come down a little bit, I'll let you in on a secret: I was leaning towards list #1 for those very reasons. List #1 or #2, it doesn't matter. My opponent's vehicles are going to die. What I'm trying to do is to build the most balanced Alpha Strike army I can, and to me, list #1 gives me that. It gives my Troops additional protection from falling off the side of the board, as well as much improved chances of passing KTA (as well as the Terminators). Additionally, the Terminator squad is much better suited towards combat in its configuration. Its not going to knock over dedicated assault troops, but at least that unit will be hurting afterward.

Fortunately, if facing an Alpha Strike army in Scenario #1, I'll have Dawn of War on my side. This will be somewhat beneficial to me, as it'll help limit the damage to my units.

Proper deployment is my best defense against an Alpha Strike list so I just have to consider the scenario and my opponent, then act accordingly. I have to ensure I don't deploy like a dumb-ass and get greedy (I have before). :O

Prepping for Nova Open: The Great List Debate

Leave a Reply.

Laeroth's Blog

Archives