So you've got yourself some extra $$...let's use it!

2/4/2013

I've wanted to make an updated 6th Edition post regarding Drop Pods, for a good long time. I spent a good chunk of time last week building an updated list, simply because it was time. I have always been a fan of the "Defensive Drop Pod" archetype that the Black Templars could field. In fact, its probably my favorite list. So it was only natural that I updated the list properly for 6th Edition. Let's get to it then! Prepare yourselves for a read. ;)

Before we start, the usual stipulation is in effect here: building this army is completely reliant on you having money to acquire the drop pods. That isn't cheap. You'll need quite a few of them (at least 9). Otherwise, this army is pretty fluffy for those who find great importance in that. I also highly recommend you read Devjon's article on our drop pods before you begin, because I'll be taking parts of what he says and implementing it into my list. I also will be making some assumptions with this article. A) You are familiar with the current FAQs and what they say in regards to our drop pods and B) the points and weaponry options for the units in the new "Death From the Skies" supplement (released Feb 16th) are similar to those in the BA/GK codices. Lastly, you'll start to notice that my lists are going to 1850 points. This is primarily due to the change in points for the biggest tournaments around the country. No use in building lists for a points level that I'll never play at.

Now onto the meat of things. Our drop pods changed a little bit with the new edition. We got forcefully updated to the newest version of Drop Pod Assault, so half of our pods need to come down on the first turn. A little bit of a change and it does change how the list works a little bit. Previously, time was the biggest ally for the Black Templars, as if your drop pods don't come down, you could not be hurt. It also gave you a reasonable amount of control over the board and you could use the drop pods that DID come down to manipulate what your opponent did via blocking and destroying key parts of their army. The disadvantage was that you never knew which portion of your force would come out of reserves at what point. So you could potentially get your more vulnerable units rather than the distraction force. I'll get more detailed with this when I updated my "How to play the DDP" article.

Post-6th Edition FAQ, you have to deploy half of your units on the first turn, but you get to pick which units. So if you were paying attention, that means you can bring out your distraction force right off the bat and throw them into your opponent's face right away. That is brutal. However, you expose those forces to the full firepower in your opponent's list. It is a big risk, but as I noted in 5th Edition, we use these forces to manipulate your opponent and keep them from advancing forward. This works well against everyone not named Grey Knight Strike Squad. Also important to note was that one of the biggest weaknesses of BT drop pod armies was the lack of flyer defense. We could get it via allies, of course. But they don't really fit the list and it would hurt it, rather than help it. With the coming release of "Death From the Skies", we'll get access to the Stormraven. This helps immensely with that problem. Thus, we'll build the list assuming we have access to it at those points levels.

We need to leverage those strengths and adjust the DDP list. So you've got your drop pods and are ready to roll! Where do we start? The most obvious place is the troops and HQ slots, as those are the required things in the list. However, you already know that you're going to be taking a high amount of drop pods, as that is the whole definition of the list. So I'm going the other route first, the Elites slot. Build backwards and then come back with the points that are remaining to fill out the HQ/Troops. There are a couple things you can do here and I'll explain them both. Obviously, we need to make sure that we have units that use drop pods. The Techmarine isn't an option, nor are terminators any longer thanks to the BT FAQ. But that's okay, the key is redundancy and low cost units. Terminators don't exactly fit those parameters. So that leaves the power armor Sword Brethren and Dreadnoughts. Both have their pros and cons.

To start, Sword Brethren give you an infantry option in this elites slot. Being infantry has its obvious advantage, primarily being able to absorb wounds via armor saves and the ability to keep firing when casualties are taken. Infantry is also easier to give cover saves to and can contest objectives. However, while they do get armor saves, these small squads aren't exactly hard to kill. They can be equipped in a variety of ways, much like our Crusader squads can be. Specials in a drop pod list should either be a meltagun for tank busting or a plasmagun for anti-infantry and some AT potential. With the meta going largely towards tough and/or large infantry blocks (typically MEQ/TEQ) in 6th Edition, I like to swing towards the plasmagun. It won't kill vehicles nearly as well, but it fires twice as much and kills pretty much anything else without a cover/invulnerable save easily. That leaves you with a heavy weapon choice. Multi-Melta is a good choice here, especially if you went with a Plasmagun, but remember you'll be snap-firing the turn you drop. You can also go with a Missile Launcher if you so desire some longer range firepower. Likewise, if you opted for the meltagun (or even the plasmagun really), the Plasma Cannon will have some good mileage in this edition. However, remember that you cannot snap fire blast weaponry. If I were to take this squad, I'd go with the MM/Plasmagun route. As a note, I'd be taking that same setup for my Crusader squads.

The other elites slot option is the Dreadnought. One of the main advantages of taking one of these is that it has a "heavier" weapon set than infantry. In addition, they are able to move and fire. They are also pretty defensible against a large variety of weapons with their AV12 and will be next to impossible to take down in close combat unless your opponent has a high strength weapon (e.g. power fist). That leaves you able to slowly wittle that squad down to nothing with your Dreadnought Close Combat weapon. Unfortunately, because its a vehicle, anti-tank weaponry will make quick work of it so you're required to have multiples of this unit for redundancy. They are also not able to contest objectives, by virtue of being a vehicle. Standard weaponry is the Assault Cannon and Storm Bolter. There are a couple of long range upgrades here, but because we're going to be dropping relatively close to our enemies, they aren't the best in this particular list. So that leaves the MM and Heavy Flamer as the other weaponry options. You can upgrade that AC to a MM if you so desire, but you should definitely upgrade the storm bolter. That weapon is pretty much worthless unless taken in mass, but a heavy flamer is useful against infantry and potentially against vehicles as well. However, with only slightly more than a 66% chance to hit with the MM, I'll take my chances with the Assault Cannon. Its more well rounded against both vehicles and infantry anyway. So AC and HF it is then! Extra armor is an option here, but with the introduction of hull points, I don't think it'll much matter.

So we have two options for elites, but I'll save which one I pick until a little later. Next up, is our Flyer. While this support slot was originally used by a trio of Land Speeder Typhoons, it is now a Stormraven courtesy of GW's newest supplement, Death From the Skies. We don't know the points limit on these, so we're just going to have to assume that its about the same price as the BA/GK equivalent. However, the rumors say that this supplement is UPDATING the rules for this unit, rather than simply giving it to the Black Templars and Codex Space Marines. So we could see a points increase/decrease here. We also don't know what type of missiles will be put on this version, so we'll just pretend they aren't crappy, but won't figure them into the analysis much. As most tournaments count flyers towards mission goals for objectives (i.e. Heavy Metal/Fast Recon), it doesn't matter which slot they are in. They'll fit right into our list perfectly by being forced to stay in reserves.

The only real conversation that needs to happen here is whether or not you want your flyer to be devoted to anti-flyer defense, or a mix? I opt for a mix, so my armaments are chosen with that in mind. For me, the heavy bolter needs to go. Period. If we had Psy-ammo, then that'd not be the case. But I digress. The only question is whether you want to take the TL-MM or the Typhoon Missile Launcher. Obviously, the missile launcher has longer range and more shots. But due to the twin-linked nature of the MM, you essentially get the same thing against vehicles. Plus, the speed of flyers ensures you'll likely be in range of whatever you want to hit anyway. The biggest deciding factor, however, is the extra cost of the TML. If we're going by the previous versions, its a whopping 25 extra points while the TL-MM is a free upgrade. I'll take the TL-MM, thanks. Then we have the standard option of a TL-Assault Cannon, with upgrades being TL-Plasma Cannons and TL-Lascannons. Both are free upgrades. However, Plasma Cannons are terrible against vehicles so those are out. So the debate is against the TL-Lascannon. They about the same chance of offing a vehicle, but the TL-Assault Cannon has bigger damage potential upside. It is also better against infantry, so we'll stick with it in this situation. Then we have some other minor upgrades, but they tend to be pretty expensive. However, since I want my flyer to be as distracting as possible, the Hurricane Bolters should be a consideration. Again, they aren't as good as the Psy-ammo version, but they still give the SR some additional AI firepower. That'll be even more important when fighting horde infantry. 30 points is pretty hefty, but I think in the end, if we can spare the points we should.

Okay, so we have the frame-work for both the Elites and FA/HS slots set. Let's look at the troops now. As I mentioned earlier in the article, I'm going with the MM/Plas setup for these guys. While the Plasma Cannon is really tempting, it would limit my AT dramatically. Plus, I need something to deal with AV14. In my previous version of the DDP, I opted for 6 5-man squads. Their protection was the drop pod itself, as well as their redundancy. However, with so many lists using low AP/torrent weapons, we really need to put some meat into these squads if we expect them to survive. One squad will be have the Emperor's Champion riding along, but that doesn't help a whole lot in the scheme of things. We could add initiates to each squad, but really, they don't add much to the squad. So neophytes are the way to go. Initially, I was going to give them BP/CCWs to defend marginally against assault, but really...if one of these squads get's charged, its dying. So all my eggs are going into putting as many ranged shots out there as possible. So say hello to shotguns. The amount of neophytes in the squad will depend on the points, but I'm inclined to say no fewer than 2 per squad. This will give the squad a little bit more in the way of wounds before it crumbles. It also helps bulk up our numbers for points purposes (i.e. objectives/table quarters). Adding more bodies to our squads is something we're just going to have to deal with as a fact of life in competitive 6th Edition.

So that leaves our HQ slot. In my previous edition of the list, we used two naked castellan to lead Command squads into battle. With the importance of Warlords in our list, I don't think we can manage such a thing anymore. Besides which, we have to cut 150 points off of the original list, so the first place to cut is that 2nd Command squad. Obviously, we'll still want one. Marshal is the way to go now, with how many boots are on the ground. LD10 will help prevent untimely fall backs. Instead of the meltaguns that we employed in 5th Edition, we're going to switch those out for plasmaguns for the same reason as the other infantry. Dual plasma will take cause a present a huge threat to my opponent, which is exactly what the DDP needs. Toss in the Apothecary for some FNP action and the squad will round out nicely. However, what do we give the Marshal? Initially, I was inclined to give him a Combi-plasma to help out with the initial killing. But the more I thought about it, I wanted some durability for both the squad and the Marshal (who is the Warlord!). That means a storm shield. Now I could stop there and simply go for the shooting route like everything else in my army, but I know tactics and I know the best way to prevent dual-plasma from shooting is to charge it! And if that happened, I had nothing to stop my opponent from running over the squad and/or tarpitting it. So I needed a power weapon -- an axe. To go with the theme, I think I'll take counter-attack to give me a little bit of a threat in that respect. If I want to add a little something to the squad's Alpha Strike, there is always the Holy Orb of Antioch. Realistically, it might even be better than a Combi-Bolter anyway.

So the foundation of the list is done, so what does it look like? And with all of those options above, what route did I decide to go? Take a look below. :)

HQ:
* Marshal w/ Power Axe, Storm Shield, Holy Orb of Antioch, Artificer Armor, Krak Grenades, and Counter-Attack; 3 Command Squad Initiates w/ 2 Plasmaguns, 1 Bolter, and Counter-Attack; 1 Apothecary w/ 1 Bolter, Narthecium, and Counter-Attack; 1 Sergeant w/ 1 Bolter and Counter-Attack. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [305]
* Emperor's Champion w/ Black Sword, Bolt Pistol, Armor of Faith, Frag Grenades, and the Vow: "Abhor the Witch, Destroy the Witch." [110]

Elites:
* Dreadnought w/ Assault Cannon and Heavy Flamer. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [145]
* Dreadnought w/ Assault Cannon and Heavy Flamer. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [145]
* Dreadnought w/ Assault Cannon and Heavy Flamer. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [145]

Troops:
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Multi-Melta, and 1 Plasmagun; 2 Neophytes w/ 2 Shotguns. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [146]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Multi-Melta, and 1 Plasmagun; 3 Neophytes w/ 3 Shotguns. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [156]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Multi-Melta, and 1 Plasmagun; 3 Neophytes w/ 3 Shotguns. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [156]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Multi-Melta, and 1 Plasmagun; 3 Neophytes w/ 3 Shotguns. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [156]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Multi-Melta, and 1 Plasmagun; 3 Neophytes w/ 3 Shotguns. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [156]

Heavy Support:
* Stormraven w/ TL-Assault Cannons, TL-Multi Melta, and Hurricane Bolters. [230]

Total Points: [1850]

First off, its again important to repeat that the points for the Stormraven are based off the Blood Angels version. It could very well be more expensive, or even possibly cheaper. We won't know until the 16th. If there is a point discrepancy, I'll fix it. Shouldn't be too difficult. If you want to build a 2k point list off of this core, the simple fix would be to add in another 146 point Crusader squad to fill out your troops. However, ideally, you'd want to try to squeeze in another Command squad. But I'm not sure the points are available with the Stormraven in the list (could take off the Hurricane Bolters...?). I do have an updated 2k DDP list that makes use of allies...so if you're interested in that, I can post it up. Its not important right now though.

So what do we have in the list? Total weapons array include 4 Assault Cannons (1 TL), 6 Multi-Meltas (1 TL), 7 Plasmaguns, and 3 Heavy Flamers. We also have 46 bodies, 3 Dreadnoughts, 1 Flyer, and 9 Drop Pod hulls. Not too bad. Just remember that this list is NOT designed to wipe your opponent off the board, but it IS designed to provide kill-point denial and wins via board manipulation. With the huge emphasis in this edition on objectives, we need to ensure we field an army that is good at claiming/denying them. And much like last edition, DDP does it very well. We're not fielding quite as many units, but that is simply due to the changes in points and the style of play that 6th Edition created. If you're unsure how to use this army, read this article I wrote for my 5th Edition DDP army. Its a little dated, but almost all of the material is still applicable.

Let me know what you think! ;)

EDIT: Just so people know what the DDP looked like in 5th Edition, here it is...

HQ:
* Castellan; 3 Command Squad Initiates w/ 2 Meltaguns & 1 Bolter; 1 Apothecary w/ Bolter and Narthecium; 1 Command Squad Sergeant w/ Bolter. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [215]
* Castellan; 3 Command Squad Initiates w/ 2 Meltaguns & 1 Bolter; 1 Apothecary w/ Bolter and Narthecium; 1 Command Squad Sergeant w/ Bolter. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [215]
* Emperor's Champion w/ Black Sword, Bolt Pistol, Armor of Faith, Frag Grenades, and the Vow: "Abhor the Witch, Destroy the Witch." [110]

Elites:
* Dreadnought w/ Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer, and Extra Armor. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [160]
* Dreadnought w/ Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer, and Extra Armor. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [160]
* Dreadnought w/ Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer, and Extra Armor. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [160]

Troops:
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Multi-Melta & 1 Meltagun. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [130]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Multi-Melta & 1 Meltagun. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [130]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Multi-Melta & 1 Meltagun. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [130]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Multi-Melta & 1 Meltagun. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [130]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Multi-Melta & 1 Meltagun. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [130]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Multi-Melta & 1 Meltagun. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [130]

Fast Attack:
* Land Speeder Squadron: 1 Land Speeder w/ Heavy Bolter and Typhoon Missile Launchers. [70]
* Land Speeder Squadron: 1 Land Speeder w/ Heavy Bolter and Typhoon Missile Launchers. [70]
* Land Speeder Squadron: 1 Land Speeder w/ Heavy Bolter and Typhoon Missile Launchers. [70]

Total Points: [2000]

EDIT x2 (Updated List):

HQ:
* Marshal w/ Power Axe, Storm Shield, Holy Orb of Antioch, and Krak Grenades; 3 Command Squad Initiates w/ 2 Plasmaguns, 1 Bolter, and Counter-Attack; 1 Apothecary w/ 1 Bolter, Narthecium, and Counter-Attack; 1 Sergeant w/ 1 Bolter and Counter-Attack. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [285]
* Emperor's Champion w/ Black Sword, Bolt Pistol, Armor of Faith, Frag Grenades, and the Vow: "Abhor the Witch, Destroy the Witch." [110]

Elites:
* Dreadnought w/ Assault Cannon and Heavy Flamer. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [145]
* Dreadnought w/ Assault Cannon and Heavy Flamer. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [145]
* Dreadnought w/ Assault Cannon and Heavy Flamer. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [145]

Troops:
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Multi-Melta, and 1 Plasmagun; 2 Neophytes w/ 2 Shotguns. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [146]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Multi-Melta, and 1 Plasmagun; 3 Neophytes w/ 3 Shotguns. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [156]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Multi-Melta, and 1 Plasmagun; 3 Neophytes w/ 3 Shotguns. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [156]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Multi-Melta, and 1 Plasmagun; 3 Neophytes w/ 3 Shotguns. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [156]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Multi-Melta, and 1 Plasmagun; 3 Neophytes w/ 3 Shotguns. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [156]

Fast Attack:
* Stormtalon Gunship w/ TL-Assault Cannon and Skyhammer Missile Launcher. [125]
* Stormtalon Gunship w/ TL-Assault Cannon and Skyhammer Missile Launcher. [125]

Total Points: [1850]

It is of note that I changed the Stormraven out for two Stormtalon Gunships. Why? When this article was published, I hadn't had access to the Death From the Skies rules yet, so I was making some pretty broad assumptions about things. Almost all of them turned out to be correct, but in the course of play-testing, I found the two Stormtalons to be more than sufficient for AA defense needs. They could also be delegated to AI/AT fire support if needed, with their Strafing Run rules being a boon in that respect. Ultimately, the change was made to facilitate additional redundancy in the list. While the Stormtalon lacks the pure firepower and durability that the Stormraven has, it makes up for it by having two of them rather than the one. That's 11 units on the board, instead of 10, which is critical for this type of army.

33 Comments

elotar

2/4/2013 11:42:01 pm

For the small changes - I don't get neophytes idea, I think it's better to drop some of them and add one more initiate squad it.

Generally I think whole DDP concept must be rethinked - if we are forced to put sothething on the table T1, then why we are putting everything in DP? We can have couple easy to hide foot units for backfield objectives as well as some speeders.

Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link

2/5/2013 01:33:54 pm

Good question! The simple answer is because drop pods give us the ability to pick our battles from the very beginning. The "control" is in our hands, rather than our opponents. Previously, the new drop pod assault rules were a liability because your opponent could reserve his whole army. In 6th Edition, that is not possible. Thus, you can be in their face first turn if you so desire. Or cut off a section of their army and eliminate it in a turn. Really, any number of things. I believe that the DDP is going to be just as effective this edition, as it was last, due to the new ruleset.

As for the Neophyte comment, I'm going to inquire what the benefit of one Initiate is over two Neophytes? You pick up a 3+ save, but also lose 4 shots a turn, another wound, and 4 points. The neophytes are simply bodies to take hits, because your squad WILL get shot at. I'd rather a 10 point model die, than a 16 point one. Especially if being hit by AP1-3 weaponry. :D

2/5/2013 05:52:45 pm

U r right about chosing fights, but you still got you backfield objectives, so why spend point for DP if you can just walk there? It was worthwile in 5-th, when you can deny two turns of shooting, but now...

About neophytes - you are not trading one initiate for a two neophytes - you r trading 9-10 neophytes for aditional scoring unit with plasma gun and heawy weapon.

TheCrimsonLancer

2/5/2013 12:04:32 am

Very interesting... I just have a quick question. How would you go about making a smaller points list? Say 1000-1500. Would you just cut dreads and crusaders until you hit the mark? And at what point (if any) would you drop the Stormraven?

2/5/2013 01:25:59 pm

Honestly? The Stormraven would be the first to go if I were to drop any further below 1850. At that point (~1500 or lower), taking Flyers are kind of a liability for any list. The DDP functions without it just fine at those levels. At most, you'll see one flyer and those you can mostly ignore (unless its a Heldrake).

Algesan link

2/5/2013 09:05:18 am

That does look more like the pre-update FAQ list, but... I'm still not sold on the command squad. Given, you have 9 pods, so you have to drop 5 of them, but if you have 8, then you only drop 4, but it also gives you the option to bring up a triple plasma bike squad with the Commander. Yes, you will have to drop to cover the bikes approach, and bikes have to be used skillfully, but I'd call that a better option in most cases than the command squad.

My objection to the new book (besides blatant GW money grabbing) is that these new "rules" have to make it into the actual FAQs since otherwise it will just be another "expansion" that has no relationship to regular 40k, so I'm not planning on having it. FWIW, I'd much prefer access to the Stormtalon myself if we have to choose among Marine flyers.

Hmmm, I see a Marshal at 125 (80+15+15+10+2+3) and a squad at at 160 (80+10+10+15+15+30) for 285 instead of 305. Did I miscount?

2/5/2013 01:22:37 pm

Ack! Forgot to write in his Artificer Armor. Good catch. Fixed now. :)

As far as I've seen via rumors, this supplement is going to take the same vein as the Adeptus Astartes and Chapter Approved books of old. So totally legal for normal 40k gameplay. The cost isn't such a big deal to me, as companies got to make money. We'll quickly find out what the stats and such are anyway without buying it.

As for the list...pre-update FAQ list? I did post up some ideas in the past, perhaps that is what you're referencing? The awesomeness of the DDP list is that its core is pretty much static. It doesn't need to change to be effective. The command squad is the only place I can take dual-plasma in the list, while maintaining a certain level of durability (and extra pods/contesting units). I've pretty much filled up all of my other slots, so at least one command squad is needed. Yes, I will ahve to drop one of my troops squads down, unfortunately. But its not such a terrible loss, as I can either throw it down with the distraction force...or use it to try and bait my opponent to a certain area of the board. Lots of possibilities, so I'm not really concerned about the odd thing too much. I am, however....VERY hesitant about taking non-forced reserves units in a drop pod army. Too much can go wrong while moving forward, especially against a maneuverable opponent. And that is really with any unit. I suppose I can do some playtests with it and really get a better idea to see if its even worthwhile. But my first inclination is that they will be targeted immediately as free kills. Especially if I go second.

2/5/2013 04:10:55 pm

Back when the Pod list was Dreadnoughts (MM/HF) and MM/HF Speeders because our Cyclone & Typhoon launchers were that old TL S5 AP5 Heavy1 thing. How do I remember so well? One Dreadnought is still on the shelf and the other two just hang out in my BT army bag for old times sake. After all that tray had already been plucked for three Dreads and three Speeders...

http://www.implausiblenature.net/1/post/2010/12/defensive-drop-pods.html

December 2010, you even link to Stelek's "Best of Black Templar" from Feb 2009. That was the list I was building when the FAQ dropped on us in January and I had to go buy Terminators.

Goldwhyn

2/10/2013 03:20:39 pm

Following up on he idea of pulling the number of drop pods down to eight so that only four must enter first turn. Would it be worth while to move one of the squads or even one of the dreadnoughts over to the Stormraven?

Admittedly, I'm not particularly familiar with the Stormraven, so I don't know how much of a pain it is to disembark from them. Or is there something that prevents them being mounted in it at the beginning of the game? Dropping one pod from the list would free up points for a few more bodies in the form of Neophytes.

Zeruvar

2/5/2013 01:36:33 pm

Im trying to make a command squad drop pod unit and from what I can see, the chapter banner gives counter-attack to the unit when charged. Then someone pointed out to me that not only does it give counter-attack, but it also gives +1 attack for the round.

I've wanted to try counter attack on a command squad which is about 30pts for the whole 10man, and I thought paying 50pts (standard bearer +banner upgrade) for just the morale check rerolls seemed too expensive, and a waste of points. But looking at it differently, it does seem to translate that when you get charged you get +1 attack AND counter-attack for a chance at a total of +2 attack bonus.

Thoughts anyone? Because if that were the case Im fielding a command squad with apothecary and 2 plasma guns, combi plasma on the hq, and maybe pay for the sergeant to take a combi plasma himself, jam a full squad in a drop pod, get teleporter homer on my hq, and then just alpha strike a TEQ unit and then bring in my tda squads with ACs beside my command squad

2/10/2013 03:47:04 am

Looking at your example, I'd say that you would be hard pressed to convince your opponent that it grants +2 attacks for that turn because of how the Chapter Banner is written. It grants the unit an auto-pass Counter-Attack, but if we've already purchased the skill, you can't be granted its effects twice. :(

However, hypothetically, if this unit were to function as is...would its price warrant its use? You're looking at a 10-man squad with an Apothecary, 4x plasmaguns on the drop and 2 after that. Everyone has terminator honors, but no legitimate close combat weapons. The alpha strike comes from your plasma weapons and the apothecary is simply there to help keep the two plasma firing after that. What does the rest of the unit give you (besides setting you back 470 points minimum)? I can understand the desire to ensure the TEQ units get where they need to be, but you can still get them fairly close without risking them to scatter. And it'd not really be an alpha strike with the TEQ, because they'd know that the earliest they'd come in would be turn 2...giving them preparation time. I mean, theoretically it could work, but I'm not sure I'd be willing to invest so many points into the squad to try it. :O

Urkh

4/30/2013 07:45:17 am

Actually, the banner should work as Zeruvar writes. Back when our codex was written, counter-attack was not a "pass LD get +1A when charged", it was a movement ability when charged in order to get more of your men into close combat. Looking at in with this perspective, we can see that the Counter-Attack portion and the the +1A portion of the rules for a chapter banner are separate entities. Furthermore, there's the part in parenthesis telling us to consult the rulebook for how counter-attack works, then directly after it, telling us how counter attack works? That would make no sense to me.

Philbrecht

2/8/2013 11:35:57 pm

As much as I like the concept of the list it"s going to be very tricky playing it. The main problem with it is your fire output in turn 1. I use the same gear options in my squads, being Plasmagun and MM. But if you put them in DP's the snapshots on the MM's is a real turn-off. You already lose about 45% of your fire output T1 with the whole army being in DP's. Then you get a 1 on 6 chance to actually hit something with the MM's. And even after that if you need to move them(for whatever reason) you have to roll 6's again. Even if 6th Ed brought a lot of squads with plasma spam to the table, the vehicles are still out there.(=>Dreadknights, Forgefiends, Necron vehicles with AV13,... etc) I'm not sure your Dreads with autocannons can balance that. The opponents heavy support will still be on the table after turn1 and their return fire will decimate your squads. And second, 1 or maybe 2 squads that came down turn1 will prob be in charge range of the opponent too. That can be by Wraiths, DE Helions, Jump Inf, etc.
I understand a lot of it depends on how you 'play' the DP list but still.Like you said, you need to be in your opponents 'face', you need to be in 24" range. For me 6th Ed is about 'hit them first and hit them hard'. So this DP list gives you the 'hit them first', with the MM you lose the 'hit them hard'.
Sorry for maybe some writing mistakes or sentense buiding, English is not my native language. :)

2/10/2013 04:45:29 am

First off, your English is just fine. :)

As for the rest, DDP has always been tricky to play. But adversely, as the learning curve is extremely high, it is even more difficult to beat once you become experienced with the archetype. I don't believe that 6th Edition has hindered that much, other than forcing the deployment of 1/2 of our forces on turn one. But that is partially evened out that our opponent cannot fully reserve their forces against us. Which was a huge problem in KP missions. It, however, was not an issue with objectives as it prevented them from getting across the board quick enough to claim enough objectives to win. Which is the point of this army -- board manipulation and control.

Before I begin, I should ask you if you've seen the previous version of the DDP list prior to 6th Edition? It made use of MM/Pg as well. But we didn't have the option of Snap-Firing when we came down, it was just a lost shot period. And I had to figure out a good way to help those squads survive to fire the next turn. Now? I'm all for a 1/6 chance. It definitely takes practice, but because everything was redundant, it was hard for my opponent to burn down the squads fast enough while still trying to get to the objectives.

Nevertheless, I 100% agree that there are vehicles still out there. And the good lists are the ones who make use of them. However, our goal in most games is to deny objectives from our opponent. That means your opponent has to break out of the "box" of drop pod units that I've forced around them. Remember, that you cannot pass within 1" of your opponent's forces without charging. Likewise, you cannot move through a combat unless a skimmer. By dropping these forces into the face of my opponent, not only do they HAVE to kill all of my units (including my drop pods) to even move, they have to neglect dealing with the rest of my forces or risk serious damage to their forces by my own distraction forces. They are called a distraction for a reason...they will likely die, but in the scheme of the battle, such a loss of units typically happens anyway against a good opponent. If I control the where and how, I have the power and initiative in the game. And because I'm also experienced, that gives me a very large advantage. However, that's not to say I NEED to drop those units down. I could simply say I'm bringing the drop pods down empty to block them in while my forces walk to their objectives. The point is, my opponent never knows what is going to happen until I do it.

I think the biggest focus of advice that I get is that these lists lack kill power. And I would 100% agree with that. But because of the direction the game has gone the past couple editions, it is a rarity that the primary mission goal is Kill Point based. We CAN function in such a game, its just more difficult. If against a mechanized army, kill the transports. Killing specific vehicles now is easy: just glance them to death (and that list does that well). Also remember that a shaken/stunned transport passes its effects to the squad next turn, even if they disembark. If against a foot-based army? Deny the KPs until you're ready to bring focused firepower down. The advantage drop pods give you is that you always control the flow of the battle.

2/9/2013 01:36:47 am

So in view of my previous comments I would make some changes based on this: "Post-6th Edition FAQ, you have to deploy half of your units on the first turn, but you get to pick which units."
I would turn 1 of those Dreads into a heavy support killer. He can use Dp's and terrain for cover. He will be an additional threat the opponent will and can not ignore. So he will draw some fire to him that releaves your troops a bit.
That would enable you to drop the MM on 1 or 2 squads. As you can pick who drops where I would give at least 1 of them a flamer. Your troops would have to kil an enemy squad camping on an objective most likely in cover. That makes the flamer handy in addition to his usefulness if you would be charged in turn. For their other weapon choice I am in doubt. This could be a CC weapon or maybe the plasmacannon if you think they will survive more than 1 round :). It would realy depend on how you play them.
So this means that we actually switch roles between one Dread and an inf squad. But this gives the list some more punch in T1.

2/10/2013 04:03:36 am

@elotar

Because you don't know if you won't need your units to claim other objectives. Having the option to decide where to strike is critical to the success of this list, as you will always have your opponent wondering where you'll bring your forces down. Your intentions with 5 units are clear, because you come down turn one (preferably second half). But the other 5 units are a complete wild-card to them. However, if you have something on foot, you HAVE to deploy them on the board because of the new reserve rules. Then that gives your opponent a target, and a rather juicy one at that. If you wanted to bulk it up to protect it from incoming fire, you'd lose out on the rest of your list and it loses its effectiveness. Besides, when you're walking, you're losing that heavy weapon's shots anyway. You cannot always guarantee that you won't be playing Eldar/Dark Eldar with their fast vehicles. Or DoA Blood Angels. Or outflanking IG. A huge number of lists would capitalize greatly on us having walking forces on the board turn one. I completely understand the desire to get as many units on the board as possible, but in my opinion, it just doesn't translate well into what this list is trying to do. I'm definitely going to have to do an update on that "How To" ASAP. lol

@ Algesan

Gotcha. I wasn't sure what you were referencing, as there has been quite a few FAQ's since I took Stelek's Best Of list and made it better. And don't you worry, I still have my Typhoons too. All of them have a thick coating of dust. :(

stewy37

2/12/2013 03:24:38 pm

Where are you placing the Emperor's Champion and how are you using him, since he can't be attached to the command squad.

2/23/2013 05:50:07 am

He is added to the smallest Crusader squad and acts primarily as an extra body for them. However, he does also give that squad a CC threat, a better armor save, and LD 10 should the Marshal die.

Howling Templar HQ

2/13/2013 04:29:23 pm

I am realising that you seem to not use any assault troops so my question is "why?" like I understand that this is a DDP and you can't drop pod them also the have a higher chance of dying if scattered badly as well as only being able to take only 1 power weapon BUT isn't the old saying a good offence is a good defence? So why not take a squad? They can help keep those CC army's busy if they get to close, they work with quick response and I found that if equipped with storm shields make a good unit to camp at an objective until the troops arrive but yes come at a high points cost if lost, even still arnt they worth thinking about taking??

Algesan

2/14/2013 09:14:00 am

U used a different version based off the Drop Pod list, which I termed the Deep Strike list (since what wasn't in pods could DS), but the ideas are similar. It was much more aggressive than the DDP, but the purpose was still to control the board through DS units. You have to be able to "go with the flow" and maintain the initiative with the follow on units from reserve, in this case, scoring units with their own "cover" from the DPs.

For CC threat I had a squad of FC Assault Terms (2xTH/SS, 3xTLC) and one "CC" Crusader squad with a couple a Neophytes and the EC. The major threat? AACNMTO. Which is a no-hava now, well, it isn't worth close to 50 points anymore at any rate. I tried a few variations right after 6th came out and quite frankly, with the "new & improved" AACNMTO, it sucked wind big time. The new one didn't help either because I was often multicharging transports, which negates the vow's "bonus".

What I did find against CC type lists, since they have to get stuck in somewhere to win, give them something to the side to get stuck into and by the time they finish that off, they cannot recover if your pods drop on the other side of the board. You can use the same thing with the DDP. You don't really need a lot of CC threat.

What I don't like about the DDP, even though it is (and was) better than my list at positioning and board control, remains that it cannot exploit some lucky dice (on either side) early or a bad move by your opponent to shift into kill them all mode. There just isn't enough firepower there.

As for the "it isn't fluffy" arguments, I'd suggest some people reread Helsreach and figure out what it was that the citizens taught Grimaldus.

2/16/2013 03:07:03 pm

There you go, ladies and gentlemen. FAQ's that 100% legalize the use of Stormraven and Stormtalon in C:BT. Bam!

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3030001a_40K_RULEBOOK_v1.3_FEBRUARY13.pdf

Just need to wait on a copy for myself and we can go from there.

Voidzone

2/16/2013 05:56:49 pm

I'd be interested to see how the stormtalons could be implemented into our lists seeing as we were very unsure till now that we would get those guppies.

2/18/2013 11:49:20 am

Heh, no problem, you just substitute them in for a pair of Typhoon Skimmers. I lost my data when I had to get a new Kindle Fire, but I'd built a couple of lists with Stormtalons.

Either way, if you go BT/IG in either direction, you can have one of each flyer and have defensive flyer cover.

2/23/2013 05:58:26 am

Even with the point change on the Storm Talon, I am a little concerned about their viability due to the need to invest a good amount into upgrades. I am still leaning towards the Stormraven, tbh.

2/23/2013 08:38:25 am

Well, they dropped the price on the ST and the missile load out. Even going with the Typhoon launcher, it is 135 (130 for TLLC). IIRC without digging out a copy, the S7 AP4 ML is actually a "gun". The downside is the AV11 2HP (with meltaproofing) and the cost is the same as a second Valkyrie.

Heh, part of this depends on if GW actually responds to emails on their new FAQ email line: A) EC is a valid as the sole HQ choice for an allied BT detachment and B) that ICs attached to BIA ally squads do not prevent those squads from getting in their own designated transports.

A allows for a BT "ally" detachment that ducks the HQ tax. and B so that the EC isn't stuck running behind a Chimera

2/23/2013 09:30:59 am

Well, for 20 points more, you get two Stormtalons with TL-Assault Cannons and Skyhammer Missiles as opposed to one Stormraven with TL-MM, TL-Assault Cannon, Hurricane Bolters, and 4x Str8 AP2 missiles. The two Talons give you one additional hull point total, but have only AV11...which means you have to worry about Quad-guns. The two Talons do have increased firepower over the single Raven, but its at lower strength so its less effective against higher AV flyers/vehicles (AV12+). If you're taking a flyer as AF defense, the Raven is far superior and between the TL-AC/Hurricane Bolters...you gain anti-horde firepower as well. I guess its a guess either way.

Lucion

3/19/2013 07:49:08 pm

Dear Templars I hope all is well.
I was hoping someone could help me with Templar Organization as per the Codex.

For a rough idea, I get the impression we do not follow standard codexs. But how is the Chapter organized in terms of a company?

For example Ultramarines take 100 men as a core.
What about Templars?

I am trying to consider a rough idea of the hierarchy and way they are regimented.

Finally is there any clear indication about a Black Templar 6th Edition Codex coming? Thankyou

High marshal ulrich

3/27/2013 04:42:17 am

In reply to your question lucion, the black Templars don't really have a chapter organisation as such, they are split into crusades, which usually is for the cleansing of a particular planet or system and as so can be as big or small as you like containing your own preference of unit, armour types etc to deal with which ever scenario you have in mind, hope this helps

3/27/2013 04:20:34 am

In my mind Templars lend themselves quite readily to using an expeditionary force and holding the rest of the units in drop pods or deep strike and for 1800 points I,d have a crusader on the table with my command squad it and 2 crusader squads in rhinos, backed up by dreads an assault terms some drop pod infantry and a combination of a typhoon and two tornado pattern land speeder

TheUnreal

4/20/2013 05:20:43 am

I'm a long time lurker of this site, your tactics are great and have helped me a lot in 5th E. 6th is becoming a little bit more difficult however...
I feel like 40k shouldn't by all means be a "Pay to Win" game. This DDP list makes a ton of sense, but for the most part you're going to tie games rather than win? Am I wrong? What happens if you go first? Half your army takes shots to the face on turn 1? K cool story.

I was curious about a regular build that I came up with the other day, it includes some of your current ideas with others that I think work effectively in the new Meta.

---------------------------------------

HQ
Marshal
w/ Power Axe (15pts), Storm Shield, Holy Orb of Antioch (10pts), Artificer Armor (20pts), Counter Attack, Krak Grenades [ 127 ]
Command Squad
Sergeant w/ Bolter; 3 Initiates w/ 2 Plasmaguns, 1 Bolter; Apothecary w/ narthecium, Bolter, Krak Grenades

Emperor’s Champion
w/ Black Sword, Bolt Pistol, Armor of Faith, Frag Grenades, and the Vow: “Arbhor the Witch…”

Elite
Terminator Squad (5)
w/ Storm Bolter & Power Fists, 2 Cyclones (50pts), Tankhunters (+3pts Each)

Troops
Squad 1.
Crusader Squad
5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun, 1 Multi-Melta; 2 Neophytes w/ 2 Shotguns

Squad 2.
Crusader Squad
5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun, 1 Multi-Melta; 3 Neophytes w/ 3 Shotguns

Squad 3.
Crusader Squad
5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun, 1 Multi-Melta; 3 Neophytes w/ 3 Shotguns

Squad 4.
Crusader Squad
5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun, 1 Multi-Melta; 3 Neophytes w/ 3 Shotguns

Rhino (4)
w/ Extra Armor, Smoke Launchers , Dozer Blades

Fast Attack
Squad 1.
StormTalon
w/ TL Assault Cannon, Skyhammer (15pts)

Squad 2.
StormTalon
w/ TL Assault Cannon, Skyhammer (15pts)

Squad3.
LandSpeeder Typhoon (2)
w/ Typhoon Missile Launcher

Heavy Support
StormRaven
w/ TL MultiMeltas, TL Assault Cannons, Hurricane Bolters

Total [ 1993 Pts ]

Someone might wanna check my awful math...
-------------------------------------------------------

This is my WEAPON COUNT
MultiMelta – 4, 1 TL
Plasmagun - 6
Frag Missile – 2 TL, 2 Cyclone(T.H)
Assault Cannon – 3TL
Skyhammer – 2 TL
Heavy Bolter – 2
Hurricane Bolter - 1

Let me know what you guys think. I'm always okay with criticism.
The problem with this build I feel is that, unlike yours, the enemy sees you coming. They can react to my rhino / support squad movements. But i feel with shots coming from Fast Attack, it should be no problem to give them cover. As with any list, there are going to be downsides. It happens with every list, but there are ways to mitigate them. What are your thoughts on Allying? Sure you have to pay the HQ+Troop tax, but would that be something worth thinking of?
Sorry for the long post, I'm just a quiet-diehard BT player that is too stubborn to let go of them :P.

Noganutch

5/1/2013 04:15:41 am

I'm sorry, maybe I'm too dumb for this....but I still don't get how u can have everything in reserve?
There are 2 Independent Characters (Marshal and Champion) and both count against the rules for reserves (at least the german version says so). So I would have to field 1 of these guys and would not be able to put him into a drop pod. Maybe someone can tell me where my "brainfart" is located... Thx

5/1/2013 01:17:30 pm

Actually, this has come up a couple times in emails, so I'll simply address it here as well. There are a couple of key parts to the rules that are relevant to the question above:

1) "When deploying...players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves to arrive later."

2) "Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so."

3) "...if any of his Independent Characters left in reserve are joining a unit, in which case they will arrive together."

All of this can be found in the Reserves section of the rulebook on page 124. So what does this all mean? First, we look at the 2nd point. All units that are required to start in reserve do not get added to the unit count (Rulebook FAQ). Considering that, as per our codex, the commander LEADS a command squad and that squad only counts as a single unit (which has to deploy in reserve via drop pods)...that leaves our solo Emperor's Champion.

Refer to point one: you may chose half of your units, rounding UP, to stay in reserve. Considering he's the only one left, you can round up to include him. Then add him to a squad, then refer to point three. Good to go.

I have not seen it ruled any other way as of yet, though it has been talked about, but if a tournament setting does come down with that ruling...just deploy him hiding behind a big rock in a corner.

Castellan Zor

5/9/2013 01:52:15 am

Hello All, sorry to be late to the thread. I am wondering about the use of only MM/Plasma kamikaze squads...those MM are only going to snap shot on the drop =miss then everyone is dead, why no regular melta suicide squads? I have good success running them, sometimes the darn guy misses so I have started running a command squad w/ 2 melta as back-up. It really doesn't cost that much more and has paid for itself numerous times! I one melta dude misses the second picks up the slack, the jaws of BattleWagon and Landraider owners hit the floor! lol

So you've got yourself some extra $$...let's use it!

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