Spring Con (aka Source GT) -- List Variation

4/8/2012

Lots of stuff going on in the past week or so. Mostly painting and building. This is good news. In addition, thanks to Matt R, I decided to attend the GT at Spring Con in May. I was hoping to hit up Indy40k GT or Bug Eater this year, but it simply wasn't feasible. Thus, I got to pick up the slack elsewhere and hope to make up for it later in the year.

This event is supposed to be a 60-player tournament, but due to the re-roll thing and higher amount of soft scoring, I don't anticipate this GT drawing many from the nationwide "competitive" group like Darkstar GT did. Who knows, I could be surprised and would be pleased to be proven wrong. We have a lot of 40k people around the area, but I don't think there are quite enough to fill out a 60-player event without players traveling in. We'll see. This time around, it looks like we'll have access to the scenarios on April 15th, a month in advance. Plenty of time to get some play-testing in and tweak my lists.

Which brings me to the point of this post, discussing and analyzing variations on my Darkstar GT list for this event. I really liked how the previous list played, and while I'll save you the analysis on that for now (its coming), just know that it performed extremely well. Well, if you don't count that Game Three scenario debacle. Nevertheless, the list itself has some efficiency issues that I didn't address the first time around. There were 90 points that were left over when I built that list. Because of the odd amount of points, there wasn't much I could do with them beyond adding a Typhoon or going the route I did with the Power of the Machine Spirit. I didn't want to field 4 Typhoons, because that would force me to have either two squadrons of two or three squadrons with one of them with two speeders. Not exactly how I roll. In addition, that would require the purchase of another Typhoon and I would like to refrain from getting another.

I also could have used another troop squad in a couple of my games. They weren't necessary to the success of my games, but it would have given me more tactical tools to play around with. Anyway, here it is.

HQ:
* Emperor's Champion w/ Black Sword, Bolt Pistol, Armor of Faith, and the Vow: "Accept Any Challenge, No Matter the Odds." [140]

Elites:
* Sword Brethren Terminators: 5 Terminators w/ 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers, 5 Storm Bolters, 5 Power Fists, and Tank-Hunters. [265]
* Sword Brethren Terminators: 5 Terminators w/ 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers, 5 Storm Bolters, 5 Power Fists, and Tank-Hunters. [265]

Troops:
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons, 1 Meltagun & 1 Bolt Pistol and Power Weapon. Mounted in a Rhino w/ Smoke Launchers. [153]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons, 1 Meltagun & 1 Bolt Pistol and Power Weapon. Mounted in a Rhino w/ Smoke Launchers. [153]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons, 1 Meltagun & 1 Bolt Pistol and Power Weapon. Mounted in a Rhino w/ Smoke Launchers. [153]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Lascannon. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons. [191]

Fast Attack:
* Land Speeder Squadron: 1 Land Speeder w/ 1 Heavy Bolter and 1 Typhoon Missile Launcher. [70]
* Land Speeder Squadron: 1 Land Speeder w/ 1 Heavy Bolter and 1 Typhoon Missile Launcher. [70]
* Land Speeder Squadron: 1 Land Speeder w/ 1 Heavy Bolter and 1 Typhoon Missile Launcher. [70]

Heavy Support:
* Vindicator w/ Demolisher Cannon, Storm Bolter, Power of the Machine Spirit, and Extra Armor. [160]
* Vindicator w/ Demolisher Cannon, Storm Bolter, Power of the Machine Spirit, and Extra Armor. [160]

Total Points: [1850]

Regardless of opinion, the PotMS Razorbacks actually performed well in their roles for me at Darkstar GT. Exceedingly well. However, they are extremely expensive and limit my lists. The same criticism can be said for the PotMS Vindicators. Nevertheless, the Vindis saved my bacon several times over with their usefulness. They are actually more durable than they look, especially if you use the rest of your forces effectively. These things can take out large AV14 things, deal with terminators, or hordes of infantry. Sure one-gun syndrome is a fear, but that isn't the only thing this vehicle is good for. It has the armor to survive a full ram on an enemy vehicle, as well as acting in a support role (i.e. mobile cover, contesting objectives). Not only that, they can redeploy with remarkable ease. Our other "heavy" fire support options in the slot can't do that as effectively and mobility has critical in almost every tournament game I've played in.

Overall, I lost a little bit of my firepower when I dropped two TL-Lascannons (and gaining only a Lascannon in exchange) but it should still be more than sufficient against most opponents. Even against Timmah's list, under normal circumstances. When my opponent closes the distance, I also have a few meltaguns that I can employ. I can no longer blast my opponent off the board like some of my "gunline" lists, but I am better suited to dealing with a changing battlefield with this list.

More and more, I find that my lists have started to include more MSU. More specifically...I try to get as close to 4+2 as possible. I've found that having at least one troops unit held back for a home objective is immeasurably important. I would go so far to say that it has been needed in pretty much every 5th Edition game I've played. Sure there are risks to these troops (i.e. Wolf Scouts, but having something that is dedicated to camping your backline always gives you a measure of "protection" in games. You can freely advance forward, without having to leave an unit less suited to the task. Useful. ;)

30 Comments

Devjon link

4/11/2012 11:06:34 am

This isn't about the list itself, but does anyone else find it ironic that Marshal Learoth is bringing up almost the exact arguments that have been used in favor of Vindicators?

They saved his bacon several times over, they are more durable than they look and they can be pointed effectively at anything. Change the first one to "I've had a lot of success with them" or "they work for me". The second one was turned around to "because of their range they are forced to move to where your opponent can get side-shots on them". The third one I've brought up before (namely their effectiveness against vehicles due to being S10 and Ordinance), but that was shot down with the argument that they should be targeting infantry because you will likely only get one good shot off.

This isn't to pound Learoth, but did anyone else notice this?

Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link

4/13/2012 05:38:36 am

Well, my arguments against using them are still valid. What I would do, however, is make some amendments to that to put additional emphasis on what they COULD bring to the table in certain lists. I don't ever think I considered them bad, just that they didn't fit most lists. They still may not fit mine, but I need more tournament-level play to decide that (can't get that around here).

The fact remains is that they survived as long as they did in my list because I had better things to shoot. I don't think they would have worked as well had I not had the 2 Terms/3 Typhoon setup. Not to mention, I didn't really advance them all that much. I didn't play anyone with a particularly fast army (at least they weren't used as such), so no one got a good side shot off on them. But DE, Necrons, BA, and Eldar can certainly manage that.

As for shooting vehicles, they certainly can do it (most noteably LRs), but I still wouldn't put shots that way unless you have nothing else. Don't know about you, but my scatter rolling is bad with templates. I never hit rhino-sized vehicles with the cannon. Infantry is harder to kill reliably for our lists, so that is why I believe they should focus on that.

Alex

4/12/2012 01:47:06 pm

Laeroth is doing it as a pattern though. In both arguments and lists, its a reflection.

Banging out the same old lists expecting different results isnt going to squeeze out new results.

The world isnt going to improve by playing small, and being un-creative.

Go back to Lysanthir and chums, I'll write up a list methinks..

4/13/2012 05:54:54 am

The definition of insanity is trying something over and over again, expecting a different result. Guess I'm going insane. Lol! Actually, more of the reason I stick to similar styled lists isn't because I don't have the creative juices flowing...but more basic: money.

I build lists for myself that I can build/acquire easily, or already have. But that also means it has to be effective. A lot of these big name bloggers have the ability to play quite a few high-level games in a short period of time to playtest their lists. After I moved out of the Twin Cities a year ago, I lost that ability myself. So my big tweaks have to happen after my tournaments. It is also my most well-known "archetype". When people say "Gunline BT" (even though its hyrid now), they think of me. Thus, I want to keep the army relevant and current in today's gaming environment to the best of my ability. Does me, nor anyone else, any good to continue promoting an out-dated list. :(

With that being said, that doesn't mean I don't play around with other styles of lists. In fact, I'm frequently messing around in Army Builder trying to find the "next big thing" to the Black Templars. But I'm only one person, and even though I have a wide perspective...I don't see everything by a long shot. That is why we (BT community) need each other to bounce ideas around and discuss them. We cannot hide the fact that our codex is aged, and unique lists are starting to grow thin. I suspect 6th Edition will change that though and things will get a lot busier around here again. :)

4/12/2012 03:38:22 pm

Yet thou is without worries, for thy woeful Knight shall be inspired anew!

Algesan link

4/13/2012 05:19:02 pm

I like Land Raiders myself and Stormraven's are fun, not that I've ever run any, but I've played against both. Like the Vindicator, they all bring something to the dance worth their points, most of the time...

It always boils down to the golden BB scenario... and I've had big armored behemoths charge across the board absorbing lots of firepower and I've hit them with Immobilize/Wreck/Explode on the first turn. A few lucky dice early and it becomes mopping up. Not a good situation when you only have three or four games to play.

However, a discussion locally bemoaning the problems with Land Raiders brought up an interesting thought, LRC + Assault Terms with a pair of flanking Vindicators. If I wasn't so behind on my other projects I'd almost like to try it out. Gives your opponents some choices on where to put their firepower the first few turns, either on the Vindicators chewing them up or the LRC coming to deliver nastiness in their face.

4/15/2012 05:55:52 am

"A few lucky dice early and it becomes mopping up."

As you will see soon, that is exactly what happened to my fourth opponent at Dark Star GT. He relied heavily on his Land Raiders and I brought them down on turn one. That took the wind out of his sail right away and he couldn't recover from it.

As for the LRC/Vindicator thing, that is something that I HAVE tried. Its an effective rock, unless your opponent reserves everything and they are mobile enough to outflank you. Still, fun as heck. Pretty intimidating to have in your face! :D

Lucion

4/15/2012 06:13:45 am

Intimidating and exclusive.

4/14/2012 09:54:27 am

LRC and Vindicators, I suppose you'd swap the CML squad for a couple of vindicators.

I haven't always had luck with Vindicators, but I think this is largely due to not using them with Machine Spirit. Its a different ball game of estimation I suppose with it I suppose.

New Codex, is there still no real evidence in order to start forward discussion of future lists?

A grounded view Laeroth. Never worry about the low resource rate for the Templars can fight and indeed prevail in the worst of conditions and against the most terrible foes!

Raise chain swords forward into the charge, to meet them head on - the Eternal Crusader is almost ready to be deployed.

4/14/2012 10:26:35 am

An act of remembrance for Lysanthir..

5 Cru bolters 80
5 Cru bolters 80
5 Cru bolters 80

LRC, Smoke 268

LR, Smoke 253

HQ Emp Champ 140

HQ Marhshal, SS,TH,Mantle 185

6 terms, SS, TH, Tank hunters 261

Speeder 70
Speeder 70

Speeder 70
Speeder 70

Vindicator, Potms, 160 pts
Vindicator, Potms, 160 pts

60 points left.. Another term. Or drop 2 2 landspeeders, add Grimaldus .. and hope the two landraiders can get of the charge supplemented by Oberon.

4/15/2012 05:39:04 am

Haha. An act of remembrance? Oh, he's still smiting the foes of the Emperor.

As for the list, as you mentioned in a comment below, this list is very "rock". lol! You will certainly either overload your opponent quickly or get destroyed. Now, that certainly isn't a bad thing...as many games can be won in this way. But on the same token, you can lose a great many too. I usually prefer the happy medium. :D

If nothing else, I am certain that any army you put on the field will look amazing! ;)

4/15/2012 05:48:02 am

Hmm.. This new blog is actually much better isnt it.
The old one didnt have the reply function like this..

The list choice is really down to marmite, love it or hate it.
Happy medium.. more like *keep everybody happy and fit in medium..*

Hmm the list is simply an adaptation of Wynny with CML swapped for Vindi's. Overload or destroy I know the principle core of this configuration has already been tested and succeeded.

It's an infererence based on what you and Algeh have talked about,

The question is how well 2 vindi's will perform compared to a squad of CML terminators.

Dont worry Laeroth I didnt stop painting. Got some Khorne on the way :) and have plans underweigh to help everybody out with a free hobby dvd - beginner to advanced- just doing what needs to be done *sorting out my life instead of focusing on to great of acts.. i must focus on myself*

4/14/2012 11:50:46 am

This is a little off topic, but I was just looking at renaissance model Templar knights (from the real crusader times) and the very names St.John and references like *Knight of the Temple* lead to some interesting wanders about the next Codex.

Will Black Templars remain loathsome of Psychers? Burn the witch etc all point to a complete hate and dis-regard for psychic abilities.

The codex even states: *No model with Psychic powers may be fielded as an ally to Codex Black Templars* with the exception of Grey Knights.

The Grey Knights and inquisition claim all authority, even above many planetary Lords, and such power goes higher, for such is the ill's of worlds which would submit to daemonic taint.

But what if the Grey Knights *cant make it* and psychic power (which is inherent in ALL Grey Knights for its daemon killing potential) is required?

Going backwards now, since the Templars of British antiquity claimed homage to Temples and divinations. Regarding the fact that Templar is indeed extracted from temple, and no temple is complete with divine manifestation..

Why should Black Templars loath the Psychic from which their name detracts? The emperor - being a model in the 40k universe represents certain parameters of time and space *the golden throne on earth* and is also a psycher on which the astronomican depends.

That faith is regarded as fanatical is not the inculcation of Sigismund or Dorn, nor are those two names, by my study, regarded with any intense disregard for Psychic ability.

Tech marines are enabled to employ the estoeric and temper spirits of vehicles but.. Psychers are exiled.

The entire proposition for the lack of Psychic ability appears to be unfounded on in any sense...on neither the traditional archetype of Templars in history and Jerusalem. The templars history of daemonic banishment which is in many ways founded upon the Symbolism of the cross, Similarly neither Dorn nor Sigismund really say anything about their loathing for Psychers.

Faith is charged by the Psychic power (fact) according to Grey Knight literature. The Black Templars fastidiously apply sacred oils and urgents while chanting litanies.
Fact or fiction, which one is really more superstitious in the world of 40k and the goal of what it is trying to represent?
I really hope Phil Kelly considers.

4/15/2012 03:19:42 am

While you make several very good points, I think the reason the Black Templars don't make use of psychics is a little bit more clear cut. The Emperor decreed shortly before his death that all psychics would cease to have a place in the Imperium (i.e. kill them all) because they drew their power from the Warp. There is a name for this decree but I forgot it. Anyway, after the Emperor died, everyone felt that they needed psykers power (when strictly controlled) to keep everything together. Except the Black Templars, who decided they would follow the word of the Emperor explicitly. :)

I'm not sure that this part of the Black Templars will get changed. Though, in gaming terms, some actual psychic defense will almost certainly be present in the new codex.

4/19/2012 10:01:55 am

Council of Nikea (spoof on Council of Nicea). The Emperor of Mankind banned all Space Marines in his *Legions* from being psykers. All such were supposed to cease and desist using their warp powers and become regular battle brothers again.

Sanctioned psykers and Navigators are not part of the Nikea Decree. Has to be so or else not only would there be no way to get anywhere FTL, there would be no way for the High Marshal to communicate that way. FYI, I'm fairly sure that if GW ever gets around to "finishing" the story, the Decree will be retconned away or made irrelevant one way or the other.

The Black Templars themselves are only a shadow of the Knights Templar/Knights Hospitaller/Teutonic Knights/etc. Just one of the bits & pieces of fiction and fictionalized history that GW used to make up their fluff. They are no more like the historical Poor Fellow Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon than any other Space Marine chapter.

Nikea Decree:
“I see now I allowed my sons to delve too profoundly into matters I should never has permitted them to know even existed. Let it be known that no one shall suffer censure, for this conclave is to serve Unity, not discord. But no more shall the threat of sorcery be allowed to taint the warriors of the Astartes. Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers.

Woe betide he who ignored my warning or breaks fair with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light.”

IMO, the real reason Roboute Guilliman and his co-conspirators pushed the Codex Astartes to turn Legions into Chapters. As the "political" Primarch, he was indulging in some "lawyering" to evade the Decree.

4/15/2012 10:10:10 am

In double-checking the codex so that I could point to passages (in keeping with my series that I have taken a brake from), I found the line that had stuck with me since my first reading of the fluff. I knew I had remembered reading something about the Black Templars not having anything to do with psykers because of the dangers involved with the Warp, and the line is at the end of the second paragraph on page 8, with the important words "their mistrust of the powers of the Warp extending to their own numbers". And they also "lust to crush the enemies of Mankind", which includes witches. Add to that how long they've been doing this and you get where they are now concerning psykers.

However, I've always liked the idea of, perhaps in the next codex, some sort of psyker. Perhaps when the Emperor chooses an Emperor's Champion, part of His psychic ability is granted to this Templar and shows as a psychic defense or something.

Although your connection with the Knights Templar isn't quite right, as psychic powers in 40k are completely different than anything that was in churches. If they turned to magic, then that would be like turning to Daemons for something, so not a valid comparison for Black Templars.

4/21/2012 06:22:31 am

Devjon What kind of Psychic powers or Psychic protection could they have? Or what do you imagine would be worthwhile.. maybe some kind of buff for the horde...

Khorne detests the psychic, but they also have enhanced protection versus it.

Algesan: Well that is suprising. I didnt know you knew so much about that. Do you have a back ground in historical literature or something? I was simply throwing about some thoughts, as I sometimes do.

Well it looks like the potential benefits of psychers for BT, no matter how attractive, are of
little value if the downside is highly probable and severe.

4/15/2012 03:41:52 am

He draw's his power from the warp doesnt he?
No Psychic power, no Grey knights.. No real protection against daemons - the worst of all.

But its likely such a large work would have glaring contradictions .

With the lists so far. Yours has more to fall back on if things go bad, It's got a lot of rolling power. Not convinced with the razors, but what can you do. Mine turned out as a kind of all or nothing :) It has the greatest opportunity for failing, and failing fast. If failing fast means learning quicker, since its concept with success is intertwined maybe I've arrived at a win win, and want to lose faster - or at leasts thats as far as the Philosophy flows.

4/15/2012 10:17:37 am

The only problem with that philosophy is that the goal is to fail in order to learn, rather than experimenting in order to learn (at least how you've described it). You do learn more from failure than success, but the only way that actually works is if you start to fail less. Otherwise, you're not learning anything, it just might seem that way.

4/15/2012 11:09:17 am

Devjon I am struggling to see how anything of what your saying is going to help me reach my goals.

I wrote what I wrote from my experience of painting with models and what *I know* has worked for me.

I am reading a book at the moment, and it says - in order to win friends and influence people you need to stop condemning, stop complaining. *Yes yes.. We all must work on ourselves :)..

Failure is a concept, and success is a concept. Most people want more success and less failure, they don't realize the two are inter-twined.. without one, we wouldn't have a concept for the other. Theres a relationship between the two, literally between the people who have had the most success have had the most failures, and the people who have had the least success have had the least failures.

I kind of see things like I might need 7 failures in order to have my success, and I wonder, would I want those to happen quickly or slowly?

This isnt the kind of failure where you get to complain about it, and attract attention - in order to gain approval.

For me when things fail up it means alot because it shows I am on the right track, I got to learn something from it and on the road to the next level. I'm going the right way.

So that word failure, the more I study it, and more I see it as a word that is a misnomer or something like a poor description of the thing that actually happens.

I cant actually think of anything in my life which is a failure.. which usually is described as something devoid of purpose or meaning, a lose all word - a nothing. Because I see it as something necessary for growth, the sight I am going the right way.

The better way of seeing it is - something you win and sometimes you learn. Success is also a horrible teacher.. you'll find that alot of people who have alot of success quickly what happens right after that? They have a big setback which puts them further back.. that puts them further back than when they started.

Alot of failiures and setbacks makes you stronger, which leads to my point, you want them to happen faster and more rapidly. I expect it, and it's part of the process rather than being a yes or no, or a black and white duality of concepts.

Its not a duality, its a one process. A single theme, an interwine, and I couldnt care less of what I've been *taught* of how to understand it otherwise.. because that works for me. Its knowledge based on experience.

The goal is not to fail, but to welcome it, accept it, treat it as a guide, a sign post - a symbol. I've learned to just get over it faster and faster - its liberating. Sure my description isnt great, its not meant to be logical, I was letting it flow more with the intention of being poetic and hearing the inner sound of far, philosophy and flow seemed to bear much more plausibility than flawlessness.

When I put a brush down I *know* it isnt always going to be right, I *know* I will need to work with it.. it's the single process, not the duality concepts.

I hope you can see my point more clearly now.

4/15/2012 11:23:28 am

I appreciate you looking to help eitherway Devjon.

Now maybe you know, sometimes I do not write with the intention of sounding correct in the first place.

I will be much better off whereby in the future most communication in the field of relevance to my cause - internet marketing, will be 90% videos.

However content optimization and other digital media content are important for *correctness* if your looking to bring your skills to something where your natural ability can grow it might serve your goals to check out

http://scribeseo.com/
or
http://entreproducer.com/
or
http://www.copyblogger.com/copywriting-101/

4/17/2012 08:16:56 pm

Again, it may just be what I've gathered about your intentions of failing. But it seems like your doing things that you know won't work because they won't work. Is it that you're trying things you know might not work and having them not work is still somewhat of a 'success'?

4/21/2012 05:55:14 am

Not sure I can make it much simpler than this Benjamin :

Success is the ability to go from failure to failure without losing your enthusiasm.

- Winston Churchill

4/21/2012 05:55:27 am

carcharodon carcharias link

4/15/2012 05:12:02 am

The next Forge World Masterclass I'll be attending is in August and is a Vindicator. One expertly painted BT Vindi coming up (I hope!) Doesn't matter what list I play, I still get tabled, but at least these guys look good dying...

4/15/2012 05:45:26 am

Aye, those FW Masterclass events look incredibly interesting. Its unfortunate they aren't put on here in the States. Even though 70% of their business comes from the USA, GW seems to be bringing less to the table here than ever before. Thus, you'll have to hold the banner up high for us here in the States and do the BT proud since we can't do it ourselves. And yes, looking amazing as your vehicles blow up is important too. :D

4/15/2012 05:33:01 am

Tickets are not available yet - are they? They are very good classes. Went to two last year. Their meant to go hand in hand with the IA FW masterclass books. Most importantly is asking questions at the end..or even better having a few prepared in advance on the areas you struggle with and most importantly.. outside the class- practising practising experimenting, failing, succeeding on project after project. How are your Carcharadons getting on?

carcharodon carcharias

4/16/2012 01:08:38 am

Tickets go on sale Wednesday 2nd May.

Had a huge lay off mins, (painting and losing, sorry playing), so the cacharodons are pretty much as they were. Picked up a Kill Blasta and Grot tanks for my Bad Moonz, so they are getting hit with the new Averland Sunset yellow. Coverage over Army painter Uniform Grey is pretty good, 2-3 thin coats, not the be all and end all coverage GW would have me believe, but better than previous.

Let me know if you get a ticket, be great to catch up on the day.

4/21/2012 06:04:01 am

Nice! Orks!

How you planning on doing the yellow? The Forgeworld masterclass book is ideal for Orks. Great job with going for a new distinct army. It pushes you to try new styles and break your comfort zone!

What else are you putting in the army? Badrukk maybe?

Aye I'll let you know want to go to the GD one too. I just got the new IA MC2 book today from Salute 2012.

Its got like three times as many tutorials as IAMC1. Like normal 80% of the materials used are the same.

I dont think not having an airbrush should put someone off. Tank Brush and correct mixing of base colour will put it on as fast - but the stokes need to be good as well as the paint mix.

For the major airbrush effects a little spray of some kind would be excellent - you can spray washes out of it, put thinner into it which works with powders - I havent tried it yet but it should work.

4/23/2012 01:54:39 am

Oh, for my two cents on "warp powers" in the 40K universe...everything is a function of the warp. Anyway, all the "regular" psyker powers, the Sisters of Battle faith powers, functional Ork kulture, 'Nid abilities and any other "weirdness" in the galaxy all derive from the warp. The only potential anomaly relates to the technology of the Necrons, but with the recent retcon/"increased knowledge", it depends on if the C'Tan/Necrons were actually attempting to sever the material universe from the immaterium/warp.

Spring Con (aka Source GT) -- List Variation

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