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Troops:  Crusader Squad

9/8/2013

21 Comments

 
Hello everyone.  I thought about how I wanted to start off our "new" look analysis and decided that I would rather go unit by unit over time, rather than skimp on the analysis by doing groups.  It also makes it easier to read and digest, as they won't be novel lengths.  I'm going to start with the most important unit of them all, since we need them in every list we take:  the Crusader squad.  So let's get this show on the road, shall we?

As I just mentioned, troops are the most important unit in any good competitive list, as they are the very heart of any scoring your army does in a mission.  Whether it be capturing objectives, holding table quarters, killing your opponent for VP/KPs, or being durable enough to deny those to your opponent, you need to have a solid troops choice to succeed.  We now have three to chose from, but I'm going to start with the Crusader squad since that is "ours".

First off, and most importantly, space marines got cheaper overall.  This includes our BT brethren.  Not only do they cost only 14 points a piece now, they come standard with both sets of grenades.  That is a 5 point "discount" from before!  Neophytes remained the same points, but it doesn't even matter.  Across the whole of the squad, this is a huge points savings.  We also retained the ability to field 10 initiates and 10 neophytes in a single squad, giving us a cheap, yet large, squad to hold objectives with.  However, there is a slight hitch to that which I'll mention in a moment.  We still have access to all of our dedicated transports:  Rhinos, Razorbacks, Drop Pods, and Land Raider Crusaders.

The unit has access to pretty much all of the standard fare special and heavy weapons, including the new grav-gun.  The points cost on these weapons fluctuated a little bit, but nothing too huge.  The biggest change was the plasmagun going from 6 points to 15 points, but that was to be expected with how powerful plasma is in this edition.  Also incredibly important to note is the fact that we still retain the ability to take special/heavy weapons at the minimum squad size of 5.  That is huge, as everyone expected this ability to go to the wayside.  That gives us a lot of options going forward, with only a minor price increase to go with it.  In addition, much like the last codex, our marines can replace their bolter for a close combat weapon if they so desire.  Its unfortunate that they just didn't have a bolter standard like the Grey Hunters do, but considering everything, that would make this squad stupidly good.  It should be noted that you should always keep the AP2 close combat weapon "hidden" in the squad itself.  In other words, do not give it to your upgrade character (I'll be touching on them next).  That way, you protect that valuable power weapon from your enemy's challenges and any casualties you may take at initiative.

Something new to the crusader squad is the ability to take a sword brethren to "lead" the squad.  He's essentially a sergeant from other troops selections, so has access to the armory.  This includes a variety of close combat and ranged weaponry choices.  With our Chapter Traits, he is potentially very dangerous to whomever decides to challenge.  Either way, armed with a CC weapon and/or a combi-weapon is a huge boon as it gives us a second special weapon and/or close combat weapon.  That is something we were really missing in the last codex and was one of the biggest problems in sustained close combat fights.  It also gives our units just that little bit more "oomph" shooting, if and when its needed.  Again, that is something that we've never had before.  I'm inclined to equip him based on what I need the squad to do.  If the squad is CC-oriented, the dual-LC option is attractive to me.  He'll rip into MEQ and carve huge swathes through them.  However, it will also make challenging him a dangerous proposition thanks to our Chapter Traits.  At the very least, a power sword, as you need to be striking at initiative in a challenge.  If I'm drop podding him or putting him in a rhino, combi-weapons are extremely appealing.

However, as I alluded to earlier, there is a slight RAW issue with taking the sword brethren upgrade to your Crusader squad.  The codex very clearly says that you may take a neophyte for every initiate that you have in the squad.  Without the upgrade, you can have 10 initiates, thus you can have 10 neophytes.  If you take the upgrade however, you only have 9 initiates left...so you're stuck with 9 neophytes.  I send in a question to GW's FAQ department on this, hoping it'll be fixed...but...we'll see.  For now, its 19 man squads if you take the upgrade.

So what can we do now with the new and improved crusader squad?  Everything we could do in the previous codex, we can do better in this one.  Want to build a footslogging blob squad?  Awesome.  We now have the power weapons to support it (plus Crusaders helps your run moves) and squad is so much cheaper now overall, that it doesn't matter if it gets shot.  Want to run large squads in LRCs?  Same thing:  more power weapons, cheaper squads, and slightly cheaper LRCs!  Drop Pods?  Oh yeah.  More special weapons, more power weapons, cheaper squads.  Rhino/Razorback rush?  5-man squads with special/heavy weaponry, cheaper rhinos, and more weaponry to bring to bare.  All win.  Add in some Helbrecht/Grimaldus spice and you have some very powerful combinations.  All-in-all, the crusader squad is infinitely better than they were before.  I would definitely say on par with the Grey Hunters, if not better.  Very, very solid troops choice now.  :D
21 Comments
Zeruvar
9/8/2013 03:55:59 pm

First!!!

Seriously though, I am so pumped about how the crusaders have been fixed. That was my main issue with our 4th ed codex, our troops just werent good enough.

Now, as you already pointed out, we get them cheaper AND even more options than before. Such a huge improvement. Now i can jam more guys in lrcs for my mech assault list.

Reply
Algesan
9/8/2013 10:23:40 pm

Do the Neophytes come with both grenades also? If so, with no price change, that is another 3 point savings.

I know they changed the Techmarines to not be such CC monsters, but to get one 2+/3++ was so darn expensive before (120 pts), so if they toned down the price appropriately and you can still get 2+/3++ they would make a good leading character for a Crusader squad, more to eat hits than LOS! them away, especially with the changes.

Reply
Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link
9/9/2013 09:41:39 am

Yes, the Neophytes get the grenades as well. ;)

As for the Techmarines, it really depends. If you go Master of the Forge (HQ)...he's actually cheaper than our previous version because he comes with the Servo-harness standard for 90 points (old BT Tech was 105 points). However, he doesn't come with a power axe and that would add another 15 points to his cost, but he has slightly higher stats. Plus they made Servo-Arms AP1 now. Regular techmarines have one less attack, but cost 20 points less when equipped with a servo-harness (and 5 points less with a power axe). However, they can no longer take storm shields...but can still ride bikes.

BT 307
9/11/2013 04:45:17 pm

A trick I'm looking at, and maybe this isn't the place, but I was thinking about taking a TM, hiding him in a Aegis Defense Line with an Icarus Lascannon and a couple of Death Star Predators nearby. Drop some scouts in with him with Telion, have Telion fire the Icarus Lascannon (to alocate the wounds how you chose with his special rule and using the techmarine to keep everything operational. Additionally have him be your warlord, so he's quite safely hidden and denying your opponent the victory point for STWL.

Trignama
9/9/2013 12:30:24 am

(Again still don't have my codex, going off of what I've read online and what not, so if I make a mistake please feel free to correct me)

So our crusader squads are better, and pretty much for every reason you listed here. However I think it is important to ask some questions and point out some flaws that I have noticed. I'm not down talking the crusaders here at all... as I completely agree once again they are a huge improvement. Part of the game however is recognizing some weaknesses.

Now as far as being "cheaper" I think it goes both ways. With having free grenades the cost reductions are huge. However I'm finding that the increased cost of special weapons, plus the cost of a squad sergeant and gearing him up for challenges tends to balance the points to just about where we were before this new book.

Now I understand you are getting more bang for your buck, but I think it is essential to realize, that at least in an assault list, you won't be fielding "more" troops than you did before, however you will be fielding higher quality ones.

Now on to the sergeant and gearing him up. Lightning claws do seem to be the optimal weapon, but does it not still cost 30 points for the pair? That seems like quite a big points dump for a 1 wound guy who will potentially get rofl stomped by i5 units (who I feel you will be getting challenged by alot). Going against squads with no characters however, will mean this dude adds a good amount of punch that we needed. I'm however leaning more towards either a power weapon or a maul. The maul with it's strength bonus is appealing and with the ability to rend in challenges sort of off sets its ap4. When fighting pretty much anything other than a Marine army however, ap4 is about all you need. The power weapon has the better ap value, but will leave your sergeant struggling against higher T opponents. There are tons of choices though, and options are a great thing, will take some time to figure out that balance.

I think an important note left out is our neophytes ability to take bolters now, and to do it free of cost. This can be a huge boon to shooty crusader squads, as it can really help to decrease the points cost of the unit, without having to much draw back. Having 10 point models rocking bolters added to the initiates w/the heavy/special/combi on sergeant I think will help to offset the cost increases of said specials and upgrades to get the combi weapons. Granted not completely, but enough to warrant attention.

What do you think ML?

Reply
chadsteam
9/9/2013 04:37:36 am

Trignama, I felt the same way about the points changes. Though I am happy overall with the changes to Crusader Squads, the points increase to the weapons puts the 5-man Las/Plas unit slightly higher than before. And I'm way too tempted to completely kit out the SB (char) in the CC units making it a very expensive 1W 3+ model. But, I finally get to use some of my SB models.

Great tip, by the way, on hiding the AP2 weapon in the unit.

Reply
Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link
9/9/2013 10:06:37 am

I won't lie, one of the reasons I mentioned the PoLC sword brother option was because of the metal sword brethren mini that I would like to get some use out of! He's the only one with a helmet. :D

As far as the additional cost on the 5-man las/plas squad, its an extra 5 points...which isn't a big deal. You really only start seeing the savings when you take larger squads, not the minimum sized (depending on the unit of course).

Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link
9/9/2013 10:03:53 am

I was hoping someone would play devil's advocate on the "cheaper" part of my article. Primarily because I both agree with it and don't at the same time. I'm going to go paragraph by paragraph...easier that way. :D

1) It is incredibly important to get this out of the way first off: Yes, you are mostly correct. They aren't "cheaper" so to speak..but we do get a lot more for the same amount of points. So...in essence, its cheaper. However, it should be noted that not all of the weaponry increased in points. Some of it stayed the same price, including melta guns and multi-meltas. Close combat weapons, overall, got more expensive. But we knew that was going to happen, because it's happened to every codex since 5th Edition. Even so, if we armed a squad exactly the same as we used to (8/2 initiates/neophytes) with power axe and meltaguns, the old squad costs 168 points and the "new" one costs 157 points. And we get both sets of grenades for the same price. And if we wanted, 18 point cheaper rhinos (smokes) and 8 point cheaper LRCs (smokes/MM). You really only start seeing the savings if you have more than 5 initiates in the squad, as instead of paying 160 points for ten initiates before...we're now paying 140 points for ten. That's 20 points, not even including grenades. That's 20 points we can use to upgrade a character with, leaving 10 points and then any other upgrade we would want (which may or may not be the same/more in points cost).

Also important to note is that we do not HAVE to take the sword brethren if we don't want to, though its stupid to not do so. Because he's completely separate from what we used to have, I don't think its fair to compare the two squads in such a fashion. He is something completely new and gives a whole lot of new options to the squads by his inclusion. Worth the extra few points.

2) The pair of lightning claws might be a little extreme, granted. But I still think its cool to think about. Would I ever go that far? Maybe. But I'd probably go with power weapon/melta bombs instead. It really depends on what I wanted the squad to do. If I'm DPing them in, he's likely getting a comb-melta and *possibly* a power weapon. That's going to be spending too. But he might not need it, as he'll get rending in CC anyway. Maul is intriguing option, but he'll cause 0.875 wounds against MEQ (no charge) with it. A normal power sword does 1.125 wounds. Sword still is better against MEQ, but less powerful against higher toughness things.

3) Yes, I forgot about the Neophyte bolter option tbh. Its actually really nice they finally have it. Especially in squads where you needed to keep initiates because neophytes couldn't use bolters (drop pod armies come to mind). That'll save quite a few points overall.

Reply
greggles
9/9/2013 04:51:29 am

I do think the +30 points for double light claws would be a bit of a point sink for the sword brother...but one lightning claw still nets you the rerolls, and with a base 2 attacks isn't too shaby. I think someone did the math on dakka dakka, and you will wound more with a single lightning claw on the attack, then a PW with +1 attacks.

Of course it looks kinda of weedy. =/ I like the idea of the maul now that you mentioned it!

The nice thing about BT challenges is we get all sorts of bonuses...it's not like the ork trap, where everyone just challenges your pk nob and wipes him out. (which is why many ork players don't get nobz anymore :( )

I'm running my squads with...
7 CC/bolt pistol
1 meltagun
1 power axe
sword brother with power maul

all in drop pods

Reply
Trignama
9/9/2013 05:01:35 am

If you guy pods, why not change out 3 CC initiates for 3 bolter neophytes? cuts 12 points out of the squad, chances are those 3 models at least will die before you get to charge (being initiates or neos) and it help you up your dakka a bit if you are playing against a horde?

Just a suggestion.

Reply
Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link
9/9/2013 10:11:22 am

It may be expensive, but think of how cool it'll look! ;) In all reality though, I'm probably going to opt for the power weapons. Their math was wrong, unfortunately. One LC and a power sword have exactly the same wounding potential (no charge accounted) with 1.125 wounds against MEQ. However, the power sword has the slight chance (5.273%) to cause 3 wounds, where the LC can only cause 2 wounds at the most. And I agree, it looks weird to only have one lightning claw.

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greggles
9/9/2013 06:49:00 am

That's a great suggestion. Could get enough points to throw some hunter killers on my ironclad....hrm. I really don't want to paint any more neophytes though! :)

Reply
greggles
9/10/2013 12:05:22 am

I got axes. Ideas for mauls outside of the Dark angels boxes? Probably hit up ebay for a few. Might use some grey knight helms on sternguard vets, with power mauls and combi guns for the sword brothers. Epic!

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Algesan
9/11/2013 06:42:04 am

If you are talking about GW axes, then cut off the blade(s), leaving the thicker middle portion around the haft. If you want more to it, a bit of Green Stuff formed around it will do. Alternatively, leave some of the blade(s) on and trim up what you cut off to turn it into a flanged mace look.

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Nathan
9/10/2013 05:28:14 am

I am extremely happy about Crusader Squads. In my view they are strictly better than tac squads and they are a huge boon for us. Unfortunately everything else that happened to us is bad and we still lack an effective delivery method for them. I also wonder how killy they will be in close combat. They certainly will die to any MEQ destroying unit or to any dedicated close combat unit.

A five man squad with a melta, multi-melta and a combi-melta is pretty sexy though, and I guess it's neat that we can still run 5 man Las/Plas squads.

Reply
Sean Snezek
9/10/2013 08:11:21 am

Just to clarify you have to upgrade one Initiate to a Sword Brother. So he still is an Initiate, just upgraded, therefore I don't see how you can't have a 20 man squad with Neophytes.

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Sean Snezek
9/22/2013 02:56:02 am

The ruling on how many Neos is very cut and dry. Refer to page 63 of the Rulebook and read it carefully.

I really don't understand all the confusion on this Neo debate...

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Steve
9/10/2013 08:17:36 am

Interesting last point, sounds good enough for me, you buy 10 Initiates and 10 Neophytes, then pay for your upgrades, one of which is your Sword Brother - should be simple enough... No doubt GW will complicate it though!

Reply
BT 307
9/11/2013 04:41:24 pm

I see a lot of potential in the plain old crusader squad now that I've seen the dex. The nice thing is that two different chapters can ally with themselves, so I can field, say White Scars with Khan and have biking scoring units, and then take the rest with Grim or Helbrecht (who are almost mandatory now in a pure BT list) to enact their special rules on the Crusader squad. The only things that have really changed and affect my previous playstyle is the lack of RZ and the lack of Rage. I'm hoping that the change in cost to the EC will give us access to all vows in a supplement. He costs now what he used to cost +AAC. If they rework the other vows to make them better for 6th ED, I'll be quite pleased.

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Zyth23
9/28/2013 08:39:50 am

Did anyone noticed that now we can have 2 Power Fists in one Squad ?
One Initiate (crusader) can take a Power Fist, and the Sword Bretheren can pick items from the Melees Weapons list (like a second Power Fist).
Which makes our CC Crusader Squad much better than before, even if it means -1 Neophyte to have a Sword Bretheren with a second Power Fist in the Squad is really nice.

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Good-N-Green link
3/3/2014 12:36:31 am

Interesting last point, sounds good enough for me, you buy 10 Initiates and 10 Neophytes, then pay for your upgrades, one of which is your Sword Brother - should be simple enough... No doubt GW will complicate it though!

Reply



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