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Where do the Black Templars fit?

10/16/2018

13 Comments

 
Hello everyone.  Today, I have a topic of a somewhat controversial nature: Black Templars and their competitiveness in today's current meta.  Frankly, its a topic of much discussion over the past year plus since the Space Marine codex was released in 8th Edition.  I've seen it discussed on the B&C forum, but the discussion really starts to fizzle out when the meat comes out due to people getting defensive.  There has been various Youtube channels that have explored the thought of making BT competitive, as well as some other blogs out there.  I am going to combine those thoughts with mine, to paint a picture of what the Black Templar reality truly is.
So, first off...I am going to begin with this:  Our codex is sorely over-matched against the current codices.  It would be wrong of me to say that we can be top-tiered codex.  However, that doesn't mean we cannot be competitive.  The Black Templars might even steal a tournament or two if piloted by an experienced player.  But it's going to take finesse and a lot of practice, which is nothing we aren't used to over the past 15 years. 

With that being said, Space Marines do not function well by themselves as pure forces anymore.  The codex has aged and even the vaunted Primaris marines have counters by the dozens in numerous newer codices.  Fortunately, there are rumors of a new Space Marine codex on the horizon.  But until then, we need help -- especially if we are using the Black Templars.  I am not one of those players who bash the Chapter Tactics of the BT, as I feel its pretty good, but the game doesn't currently favor assault.  So that means we need to look for outside help.  Those who have been following Implausible Nature for a while know that I use what I have available to help win.  In this case, it means allies.  And those allies need to include things (i.e. psykers) that are typically...unsavory for BT players, myself included.  But allies give us access to psychic powers.  Normally, that is a line even I won't cross, but we need something to help us compete.

So we know what we need to open our lists to all options, but how do we construct the list?  What we used to do with our army does not work anymore.  We need to adapt to how the game is being played.  You either have fast and maneuverable forces, you spit out tons of shots into your opponent, have an exceptional assault component, and/or have a durable/numerous force that can weather your opponent's firepower or assaults.  And the best list are those that fulfill several of those requisites.  Vehicles are not currently in favor, but that doesn't mean that they are not useful in the right list.  However, its my opinion that they are taxes in an army that is already expensive.  Knowing this, we need to construct our arch-type.  Mechanization usually doesn't work.  Min-max Razorback gunlines don't work, because we don't have a Primarch to assist us.  Aerial assault can work, but you are fielding a glass cannon force that has too many counters to be safe.  Concentrating on foot-based units with lots of guns does work.  Lots of infantry on the board does work.  Strong assault units in your opponent's face works.  Mass deep strike and assault lists, unfortunately, no longer work.  What works?

I tend to build my lists balanced, but that doesn't mean that I don't focus on a goal.  The lists I have recently had success with revolve around overloading my opponent with durable targets, while I advance into close combat.  As noted, this has been largely successful.  However, I need to evolve again.  The release of some of the newer Adeptus Astartes codices have been enlightening to what works.  Everyone has seen or heard of the BA Smash Captain.  Fortunately, we can replicate it for the most part -- minus the infinite CP utilization (which the FAQ took away anyway).  But what is important is that we found out how powerful characters can be in combat and how much damage they can inflict on the opponent's army.  One of the great things about the Space Marine codex, especially the Black Templars, is that we have access to exceptional characters.  Even the generic ones can pack a huge punch. 

Leveraging that advantage is where the future is.  We need to utilize it.  Space Marines are great character "transports".  Maximizing our characters in the list, hiding them with our Crusader or Neophyte squads, and getting them into the fray.  A single character can hold up an entire unit or completely destroy it.  Utilize the other parts of your list to hold ground, provide a fire-base, or support your characters.  We can supply all of the close combat that we need in our list just from characters.  Or they can supplement our Crusader squads.  Anything is possible.  Tie in our BT chapter tactic and we get reliable charges.  I'll take it all day.

One thing that has been lost in our list building is the realization that we are playing at an event that is probably using one of two different mission sets:  Nova Open or ITC.  Thus, we can make reasonable assumptions in how we build lists.  Build to play to the missions, not to your opponent.  Optimize your firepower and close combat, use allies to fill your holes, and buff your units with force multipliers.

I am curious to see if you have had similar experiences.  Or perhaps you disagree with me?  Let's get some healthy discussion going.

~Marshal Laeroth~
13 Comments
Marshal Hortensius
10/17/2018 11:53:59 am

I completely agree. Haven't figured out how to make it work on the table but I agree.

Tried gun lines and they have only worked in certain situations and did not provide the utility needed to present a versatile force.

As for the witches... whelp... We do make exceptions for Astropaths and Navigators... so...

Multiple sources have mentioned including "allies" and creating "soup" lists... not sure I'm ready for that, but it can definitely increase effectiveness exponentially.

Reply
Marshal Laeroth12
10/30/2018 09:00:34 pm

That is the big problem isn't it? Getting it to work within a player's personal "restrictions". Psykers and other allies are hard to swallow for a lot of BT players. That makes it tough.

Now we have to contend with Orks and their huge numerical advantages...even in the way of shooting. I am not sure that we can afford to use small units anymore due to this -- unless its Primaris. But you can't field huge columns of AM either, as you'll time out in your games. Interesting enough, it might mean vehicles make a minor comeback if Orcs really start to dominate the meta.

Reply
Marshal Hortensius
11/5/2018 03:30:20 pm

This has been playing better than my previous lists, though it is lacking in the mobility department.

Aux. Sup Det.
-Culexus

Batt. Det.
-Prim. Capt
-Prim. Lieut.
-Intercessor w/AuxG x5 (x2)
-Neophyte x5
-Aggressor x3 Boltstorm
-Land Speeder Typhoon HB x3

Batt. Det.
-Capt.
-Prim. Lieut.
-Neophyte x5 (x3)
-VenDread DualLasML (x2)
-DevSqd Lasx1PCx3
-Hellblasters

Marshal Laeroth (Admin)
11/7/2018 01:02:15 pm

You definitely have a large firepower base, which certainly is important nowadays. The wargear isn't really listed here...do you have a close combat contingent? And you are right, there is very little mobility so you are going to have a tough time dealing with missions that require it. But your long-range firepower helps keep your threat range relevant while walking to those objectives. That helps a bit.

Marshal Hortensius
11/7/2018 03:29:44 pm

Scouts are combat knife/bolt pistol. Other than that... no close combat contingent.

I am looking at adding Vanguard Veteran Assault force but have to get the models first.

Marshal Dobs
11/7/2018 11:21:51 am

I stumbled across this the other night and I have to say brothers that I am very glad to see it. I hope that content to it will continue. But in response to all of the above. I agree totally. Long live the Black Templar

Regards,

Marshal Dobs

Reply
Marshal Laeroth (Admin)
11/7/2018 12:44:20 pm

Hello! Welcome to Implausible Nature! I've been here for about ten years now, with varying levels of content output. Admittedly, 5th/6th Edition was the highest level of activity and was part of the 40k blog heyday. However, I built the site to work beyond the blog...so it contained lasting information over the course of a long period of time. And here we are in 8th edition, still rolling on!

We always hope to make sure that we are putting out relevant and useful content. Always feel free to suggest different topics though! :D

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Marshal Dobs
11/7/2018 11:31:31 am

Furthermore I always find it funny that alot of fellow players tell me to not continue my Black Templar hopes of having a decent army. I reply to them and tell them that they are all heretics. The whole lot. I do agree that to make things work for a BT player it requires alot more work. But isn't that a part of why we continue to fight on brothers? I ask you this. Look forward to more content. Great work thus far. For the cause!! Also I am not ready to commit to soup in whole. St.Celestine and Sisters of Battle is where my limits are drawn. Truth be told they share similiar dedication to the crusade and unwavering Faith. Why I accept them in the ranks as Allies. Let me know how you all feel as it pertains to Allies would love to hear your thoughts.

Reply
Marshal Hortensius
11/7/2018 11:36:57 am

None doubt the Faith and Devotion of the Saint and her Sisters.

Reply
Marshal
11/7/2018 11:42:33 am

:D. Will be watching. Emperor protect and may your battles be Glorious. Fight hard Brothers!!

Marshal Laeroth (Admin)
11/7/2018 12:55:15 pm

They ARE heretics and are not pure of heart. All need to be crushed under the heels of our ceramite boots. In all seriousness though, I consider the challenge of an uphill battle part of the fun of playing 40k. Sure, if we had better rules in our codex, I wouldn't complain...but I am certainly the half-full BT player.

When I bring allies to the table, I have a self-enforced restriction that the majority of the points come from my BT. The Sisters are a nature ally due to their similar beliefs (in fluff) as you mentioned. I honestly love their rules/anesthetic quite a bit, but I cannot really validate running a completely different army when they are so similar to the BT. So for me, allied SoB is the solution. Perhaps I make an Allies post?

Reply
Marshal Dobs
11/8/2018 12:31:05 am

Yea feel the same way. Would love to see more of your guys best lists. It is hard but sharing our battle tactics will give us all the edge we need to be competitive. Look forward to army lists and composition most of all. Its the fun part about it all; and I do agree with the uphill battle. I love the underdog and if they dont watch out we will burn them like the heathen that they are ;) rawr

Anthony Neundorff
11/20/2018 08:29:14 am

I agree, vehicles are a detriment. I've been running this



[b]++ Brigade Detachment +12CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [105 PL, 1999pts] ++[/b]

[b]+ No Force Org Slot +[/b]

[b]**Chapter Selection**:[/b] Black Templars

[b]+ HQ +[/b]

[b]Captain [5 PL, 82pts]:[/b] Bolt pistol, Iron Resolve, Lightning Claw, The Crusader's Helm, Warlord

[b]Captain [6 PL, 129pts]:[/b] Jump Pack, Storm shield, Thunder hammer

[b]Lieutenants [5 PL, 106pts][/b]
. Lieutenant: Jump Pack, Plasma pistol, The Armour Indomitus, Thunder hammer

[b]+ Troops +[/b]

[b]Crusader Squad [5 PL, 118pts][/b]
. 2x Initiate
. Initiate w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon
. Initiate w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Sword Brother: Bolt pistol, Combi-plasma

[b]Crusader Squad [5 PL, 118pts][/b]
. 2x Initiate
. Initiate w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon
. Initiate w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Sword Brother: Bolt pistol, Combi-plasma

[b]Crusader Squad [5 PL, 118pts][/b]
. 2x Initiate
. Initiate w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon
. Initiate w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Sword Brother: Bolt pistol, Combi-plasma

[b]Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 90pts]:[/b] Bolt rifle, 4x Intercessor, Intercessor Sergeant

[b]Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 90pts]:[/b] Bolt rifle, 4x Intercessor, Intercessor Sergeant

[b]Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 90pts]:[/b] Bolt rifle, 4x Intercessor, Intercessor Sergeant

[b]+ Elites +[/b]

[b]Apothecary [3 PL, 55pts][/b]

[b]Company Ancient [4 PL, 68pts]:[/b] Power axe

[b]Reiver Squad [10 PL, 200pts]:[/b] Bolt Carbine, Grav Chutes
. 9x Reiver
. Reiver Sergeant: Bolt Carbine/Heavy Bolt Pistol

[b]+ Fast Attack +[/b]

[b]Assault Squad [6 PL, 80pts]:[/b] Jump Pack
. 4x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Chainsword

[b]Assault Squad [6 PL, 80pts]:[/b] Jump Pack
. 4x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Chainsword

[b]Assault Squad [6 PL, 80pts]:[/b] Jump Pack
. 4x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Chainsword

[b]+ Heavy Support +[/b]

[b]Hellblaster Squad [8 PL, 165pts]:[/b] Plasma incinerator
. 4x Hellblaster
. Hellblaster Sergeant: Bolt pistol

[b]Hellblaster Squad [8 PL, 165pts]:[/b] Plasma incinerator
. 4x Hellblaster
. Hellblaster Sergeant: Bolt pistol

[b]Hellblaster Squad [8 PL, 165pts]:[/b] Plasma incinerator
. 4x Hellblaster
. Hellblaster Sergeant: Bolt pistol



Warlord provides re-rolls for the fire support base. Intercessors act as midline units to either hold midfield objs or push up and provide support with the assault element. Jump HQ's usually push in with the assault marines to give them more bite plus auras.

Needs a bit of finesse, but takes huge advantage of cover. The ancient and apothecary usually stick around the hellblasters to keep them firing as long as possible.

Crusader squads primarily provide AT, but Hellblasters overcharged are pretty good at taking down vehicles themselves.

Rievers are the Deepstriking flex element in the list. I kept them with bolters so they have the option of sitting back and shooting, or charging in. You can combat squad or run them as a 10 man, and provide a great situational gap filler.

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