"Fusion" List Variant

11/7/2011

Most of you guys already know about the Tony K list fusion exercise that we did back in May. Since then, I've tweaked and played around with the list I created several times. Most recently, I came out with an article about the future of the Black Templars based on my experiences at Nova Open. More specifically, what I expected to occur for the foreseeable future in Grand Tournaments with the popularity of the Nova Open style.

Well, at the time, I was happy with the list. Until tonight. When I was sitting down thinking about the Necrons and how to deal with them, I realized that I didn't like the list. So I took a look at the final draft of the "Fusion" list, tweaked the troops a little bit, then settled on an updated list (which you can find on the BT list page) for Nova Open. Try as I might, I simply don't think I can do better than I already did with that type of list.

...or could I?

As I mentioned in my last blog post, Darkwynn won Feast of Blades this evening. While his list still hasn't been released yet, a staple in his list has been 7x TH/SS Terminators in a LRC. Normally I don't condone the use of more than 5 Terminators in a LRC unit, because its already a huge point sink, but this would be an exception to the rule. I'll explain why.

Typically, when a person wants to have more than the basic 5 Terminators, it also includes an Independant Character. Making the unit extremely expensive. But the main reason why it doesn't work, is because there are Lightning Claws in the unit. 3 Lightning Claws kill pretty much any infantry you target anyway, so having more is a waste. They also aren't very durable, nor do they do anything of note to vehicles, walkers, or Monstrous Creatures. Combine this with the ability of your opponent to easily neutralize the LRC and you have a problem with surviving to combat.

However, if you take TH/SS, you alleviate the durability problem. You also will still kill pretty much everything you charge, except now that will also include vehicles (especially if you give them Tank Hunters). Plus, you have enough terminators to get a multi-charge off on your opponent. If the LRC goes down, you have the numbers and durability to footslog to your enemy. Because of this fact, we're marginalizing the impact the loss/neutralization of the LRC has on your game. Its likely you already had a full movement phase to get them closer when it went down, so its not such a big deal if it happens.

In the end, I thought it was worth playtesting, as I've never tried using such an unit in my games (5+ TH/SS Terminators). So I tweaked the "Fusion" list yet again and it might be something I like enough to bring to the next round of GTs next year. However, like Darkwynn, I'm not willing to put such a huge investment on the board without Blessed Hull. I don't like the fact that Lances can ruin ignore my AV14, so for 25 points, I'm going to take an upgrade that pretty much makes the DE anti-tank weaponry useless. Unfortunately, to fit this unit in, it forced me to lose a dual-CML Terminator squad and two troops. But now I have an unit that CANNOT be ignored on the battlefield. Is the change worth it? Time will tell. ;)

HQ:
* Castellan w/ Lightning Claw, Storm Shield, and Frag Grenades. [106]
* Emperor's Champion w/ Black Sword, Bolt Pistol, Armor of Faith, and the Vow: "Accept Any Challenge, No Matter the Odds." [140]

Elites:
* Sword Brethren Terminators: 8 Terminators w/ 8 Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields & Tank-Hunters. Mounted in a Land Raider Crusader w/ Blessed Hull and Smoke Launchers. [637]
* Sword Brethren Terminators: 5 Terminators w/ 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers, 5 Storm Bolters, 5 Power Fists, and Tank-Hunters. [265]

Troops:
* Crusader Squad: 7 Initiates w/ 5 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons, 1 Meltagun, 1 Bolt Pistol and Power Weapon & Frag Grenades. Mounted in a Rhino w/ Smoke Launchers. [214]
* Crusader Squad: 7 Initiates w/ 5 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons, 1 Meltagun, 1 Bolt Pistol and Power Weapon & Frag Grenades. Mounted in a Rhino w/ Smoke Launchers. [214]
* Crusader Squad: 7 Initiates w/ 5 Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons, 1 Meltagun, 1 Bolt Pistol and Power Weapon & Frag Grenades. Mounted in a Rhino w/ Smoke Launchers. [214]

Fast Attack:
* Land Speeder Squadron: 1 Land Speeder w/ 1 Heavy Bolter and 1 Typhoon Missile Launcher. [70]
* Land Speeder Squadron: 1 Land Speeder w/ 1 Heavy Bolter and 1 Typhoon Missile Launcher. [70]
* Land Speeder Squadron: 1 Land Speeder w/ 1 Heavy Bolter and 1 Typhoon Missile Launcher. [70]

Total Points: [2000]

So I have 10 Missile Launchers (4 Tank Hunter), 1 Multi-Melta, 3 Meltaguns, and 3 Heavy Bolters. Means I'm a little lighter on AT than I'd normally like, but with all the attention on my CC units, I could have time to crack open vehicles. Only playtesting will say for sure. Anyway, there is the list tweak idea. Let me know what you think.

41 Comments

Eliath

11/7/2011 12:26:10 am

I really like it a lot. It has made me reevaluate my choice of lightning claws on the assault termies. My justification was always that they were in a LRC so they didnt need the SS, they already had a 5+. But with the amount of pure CC units with tons of powerweapons, a 5+ cant be relied on. 7-8 THs are gonna to chew up anything to get to hit. If you brought 8 termies, would you think it was a terrible idea to put in 3 claws just to thin out infantry before the hammers strike? Or is that only viable if you bring furious charge to get that extra initiative and strike before MEQ?

11/7/2011 12:26:43 am

Also, TH/SS looks so much better to model for an entire chapter of knights....just saying =)

Alexander Millar

11/7/2011 05:27:19 am

I don't quite understand out the Castellan fits in other than the Ld 10 for RZ moves. Where do you plan on putting him and the EC in terms of game play?

Nick "Darkwynn" Rose link

11/7/2011 05:44:52 am

Hey,

Laeroth, I don't have much time as I have a board meeting to go to but we can chat later.

My List was pretty simple just pick the good things out of the FAQ.

7 T/H SS Tank Hunters
LRC Blessed Hull, Dozer Blade

5 Tank Hunter Terminators, Two Cyclones missile launchers

EMp Champion Accept any challenge

Marshall Storm sheild, Chainfist, Mantle, Terminator armour

5 man squad with nothing
5 man squad with nothing "Bolters"
6 man Crusader squad with BP and Chainsword. One power weapon

2 typhoons
2 typhoons

I put terminators in the LRC and Crusader squad with Marshall and Emp champion in the other or emp in LRC.

if you want you can email me at [email protected]

Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link

11/7/2011 06:32:04 am

@ Eliath

I personally don't think adding Lightning Claws bodes well for the unit, as you then reduce the durability of the unit. Not only that, you are limiting the potential your multi-charge has on the widest variety of targets. Remember, its closest to closest.

Plus, as you mentioned, without Furious Charge...they really aren't worth taking. You already have more than enough power to thin infantry out. Even taking 2-3 losses before they strike, they'll easily kill 10 MEQ on the charge.

@ Alexander

He goes into one of the Crusader squads, as does the EC. This gives those units the ability to actually do something in CC, rather than being mediocre. I'm not sure I really care for the big squads though, so I'm thinking about changing them. But I'm not 100% on that yet.

They way those units work, and have worked in the past, is that they advance to clear out objectives. The final crusader squad hangs back to claim one of the home objectives when its time, but it also has the ability to do some good in CC if something threatens it's objective (with dual-CML Terminator backup). The list is very aggressive. Not sure yet if that is a good thing.

@ Darkwynn

Don't you run two Land Raiders? One Godhammer with the Crusader squad? I'm pretty sure you do and simply didn't get it listed there.

I might be sending that email, as I have a question about how you deal with something with your list.

Darkwynn

11/7/2011 06:45:01 am

Yes,

I forgot I do have one Land Raider Godhammer with EA and a Dozer blade.

Devjon link

11/7/2011 08:00:57 am

You know, this is very, very similar to your Double Rock list (I believe you call it Heavy Mech, but it's the same idea), the only difference is that, rather than two Assault Terminator units you have one bigger one and a regular Terminator unit (and I think the Castellan is new). But it still has the same problems, few troops, rock, but now it trades in two rock units for one bigger one.

It's better than your Heavy Mech because you are more capable of dealing with enemy vehicles (both from the Cyclones and from the large number of Thunder Hammers/Powerfists), but I don't think that it's much better. You are still focused on your Terminators doing a ton of damage and drawing lots of firepower, and if they don't then your list starts to fall apart (three Typhoons are great for 210 points, but they aren't going to save you and, as you mentioned, the Crusader Squads aren't exactly awesome).

Plus there is something I noticed when play testing against both your Heavy Mech and your All-Comers lists: neither have good choices of units to hold objectives. You've only got three choices, and at how expensive they are you want them moving forward to do damage/take enemy objectives. But you end up having to leave 1-2 to hold your own objectives and that puts you at a huge disadvantage (400+ points doing nothing except threatening enemy units that get within 12" or so).

I think you'd be better off with dropping all three of them and replacing them with two Las/Plas Squads on foot and two small squads in Rhinos (5 Initiates, 2 Neophytes, Meltagun, Power Weapon, Extra Armor and Smoke). That way you've got more anti-armor, cheap units to hold objectives (preferably in cover, going to ground if needed) plus two forward units to help your Assault Terminators without losing much Close Combat threat (two Neophytes instead of two Initiates, point for point they are virtually the same) besides a single forward unit (which you will lose anyway). They Objective holders get to benefit from being protected by the regular Terminators should your opponent have Infiltrators, Outflanking units, or Deep-striking units (unless you really want to push them forward, as if they'll get there anytime soon).

Another option would be to only replace two of them with Las/Plas Squads in Rhinos and put Extra Armor on the Crusader's Rhino, and you'd have 66 points left over to get a Neophyte for your remaining squad, and then maybe go up to a Marshal from the Castellan, add bodies to your Las/Plas Squads, get another regular Terminator to beef up that squad, upgrade a Rhino to a Razorback, or something.

Algesan link

11/8/2011 04:39:42 am

Heh, remember the "Style" component of list building?

Land Raiders aren't easy to take out or suppress, they soak up a lot of firepower. Their weakness is the golden BB. That one Lascannon (or TH Krak Missile) that rolls the 6 for pen and 5-6 for damage. 4% chance (5% if you count Immobilize). Nothing else matters with XA if you are using it primarily as a transport and not a tank.

IMO, if you do have the points for Furious Charge, I would put a couple of TLC in there. 3/4 chance to hit and 8/9 chance to wound vs MEQ is too good a threat for a cheap price.

@Devjohn: With the Terminators of various flavors, I really don't care, they will do their job one way or the other. They take time and effort to beat down, they give back hard as well and although it is possible to see mass PW units charging in, it is far more likely (for me) to have my THDC dealing with regular squads that have to beat past 2+ and then eat power fists in return.

Rock, Scissors, Paper. Use what you need to. So I don't mind outshooting what I cannot outassault and vice versa.

11/8/2011 05:04:14 am

@Algesean

Land Raiders also suffer from being so expensive and inefficient in the fire-output, sure they do other things but so do Rhinos, and point for point Rhinos are more reliable than Land Raiders (250 points of Rhinos should generally last longer and go farther than a single Land Raider, as well as providing more flexibility and transporting more units which means close to the same Close Combat ability along with special Weapons). And Lascannons aren't the only thing that threatens Land Raiders, fast and sacrificial Melta (if done correctly) can also ruin the day for Land Raiders, with a 20% chance to kill them (29% if you include Immobilized results) and can still do so before the Land Raider's occupants get close enough. Having two Land Raiders (plus sufficiently dangerous passengers) or a large squad of TH/SS Terminators takes care of this problem, but at a huge cost (and doesn't entirely fix blocking or feeding sacrificial units).

Yes, Terminators will crush anything without a Power Weapon, but I was having trouble dealing with Close Combat Crusader Squads if I didn't get the charge off. Plus you still have the problem of hoofing it to the enemy so you won't get very many turns to actually assault (or you could run, get maybe another turn or two to assault, but never get to effectively shoot). The only three ways of effectively getting them to the enemy are Drop Pods (you might come down late, which is worse than running), Teleporting (same as Drop Pods but also dangerous), or a Land Raider of some sort (incredibly expensive to just get them to their destination and, as I pointed out above, it doesn't do anything else really well).

11/9/2011 04:20:49 am

Melta works well. <carefully forgets the Rhino that survived three melta hits, two that didn't penetrate> ;)

The point sink for the LR (or any expensive unit choice) + the golden BB effect are what makes Rhinos such a nice choice. Especially when you can buy seven of them and have change left over for the price of one LR. Which is why I expect LR to get one or two structure points (whichever makes for ignoring one shot for free) in 6th Edition and see them revitalized again.

If you are having trouble with Crusaders, I'm assuming you didn't have AACNMTO and got charged? Otherwise average dice will put paid to 5+ MEQ with even four PF Terminators.

Yep, it takes a while for my Terminators to slog across the battlefield, but you forgot two options. First, you meet the enemy in the middle. Second, the enemy is charging at you.

11/9/2011 05:59:51 pm

Terminators can easily slaughter 5+ MEQ on the charge. <carefully forgets the single Initiate that nearly survived being charged by a full 5 Terminators> ;)

Your standard 7/2 Crusader Squad with a Power Weapon (assuming the Independent Character left them) will kill 2 Terminators on the charge, in return the Terminators will kill the Neophytes and sometimes an Initiate. Next round, another Terminator dies and another Initiate dies. Then another Terminator dies and another Initiate. 4th round and the Terminators are finished off assuming average rolling while a good half of the Crusader Squad gets to move in the next phase. If the Terminators get the charge or face non-combat units then they're fine, otherwise they are in trouble.

Which leads into a rhetorical question: When can you count on your opponent approaching you except when he can tackle your Terminators? By this I don't mean in certain circumstances or against specific armies, I mean common enough to be relied upon.

You meet in the middle, he is going to have some strategy to deal with your Terminators, which means that you aren't exactly going to be raging through his units. Either he will have miscalculated, your Terminators will be better suited to shooting him, or they will serve as a diversion. The enemy is charging you, and you don't want your Terminators to get torn up by his true, dedicated Close Combat units that are charging at them. That isn't to say your Terminators are doomed, but they aren't going to act as Close Combat monsters in either of those options.

This is something I picked up only recently; Terminators stomp non-combat units and they can duke it out with average to acceptable Combat units, but generally if you're opponent is coming at you he's going to have something that can at least deal with your Terminators if he gets the charge.

11/9/2011 09:55:24 pm

Aha. Yes, you are correct, that type of unit can work over a THDC squad. Flip it over though. If I allow something like that to get that close and still remain intact then I've screwed up somewhere. Or you've outgeneraled me, but for gaming purposes, since I'm seeking to impose my will on yours, it is more useful to me to do my best to make sure it doesn't happen again.

If I get caught like that in a game, either I just lost it (often enough) or I'm making a sacrifice for a reason. Yes, my opponent won't come in like that unless he thinks he can deal with me, but it is my job to show him his mistake. I can shoot up that squad (if need be opening their can up first) before it gets there, toss another unit into it so I get the charge with the THDC squad or countercharge with another unit.

I'd venture to comment that if I'm facing squads like that, then for redundancy there will be more than one, which will mean less vehicles & squads on the board, which will play more into the hands of my having fewer shooters that hit harder.

Lucion

11/10/2011 12:56:34 am

With the help of Algesan and Devjon I would like to compare these lists to the top 4 nova lists. This could add some interesting depth on the constructive criticisms pointed our.

The key would be the right mix of numbers which makes the logic panoramic.
If we get the numbers perhaps we can step forwards with fabrication into a graph.

Specifically. I'd like to see the probability that the land raider can get the terminators within charge range of something over 2 turns. Can they be outshot easily? How much is it going to help to have the

extra land raider with Darkwynns monstrous creature marshal?

We may get a glimpse at what might be going on in turns 3 and 4 with regards to the other units that need to pull it into a win.

We will require the Phorus Method and assume line of sight visibility.

If it is possible I would like to calculate how well they can out shoot a land raider in turn 1 or 2, and not over the course of the game.
I will use Phorus's excel of NOva as a bench mark.

Darkwynn
DMS:
DMCC:
DRPG:
DLRPG:

Laeroth
DMS:
DMCC:
DRPG:
DLRPG:

Kopach - Space Wolves
DMS: 19.28
DMCC: 28.97
DRPG: 59.18
DLRPG: 17.04

Stelek - Space Wolves
DMS: 25.05
DMCC: 24.82
DRPG: 64.80
DLRPG: 19.27

Ferrek - Blood angels
DMS: 22.21
DMCC:15.15
DRPG: 82.35
DLRPG: 33.74

Dashofpepper - Orks
DMS: 18.90
DMCC: 45.75
DRPG: 80.00
DLRPG: 31.04

11/10/2011 01:01:58 am

Laeroth, Great creative thinking going on with these fusion lists.
I like both the lists and the CML term and LRC hammer connection.

Darkwynn has proved once more that LRC's can win tournaments for BTs.
Indeed, as some have said time again, utilizing a LRC and AAC appears to be the only way to make BT assault effective.

A brief comparison of the lists the main differences seem as follows:

Laeroth
- Has rhinos with better troops
Darkwynn
- Has an extra hammer unit

Rhinos are over priced but it makes the 3 troops relatively effective supports. However Darkwynns extra hammer unit may pay off.

11/10/2011 01:32:09 pm

Sure, tell me where to find what the "Phorus method" is. I just use Nike's system to get potentials. BTW, where is Blackmoor's list?

I haven't done Darkwynn's, but here are some numbers I did do for a post on my blog. Notice that I do not included DLRPG here, all of these lists are more than capable enough of handling some Land Raiders, I also split DRPG into Shooting and Assault components to show something.

Laeroth's NOVA 2011 Gunline
DMS: 29.297
DMCC: 18.055
DRPG(S): 77.408
DRPG(A): 33.333

Old DDP:
DMS: 22.444
DMCC: 22.144
DRPG(S): 45.417
DRPG(A): 21.813

New DDP:
DMS: 23.334
DMCC: 12.860
DRPG(S): 68.056
DRPG(A): 21.813

Original Deep Strike:
DMS: 22.667
DMCC: 42.088
DRPG(S): 53.056
DRPG(A): 55.833

Revised Deep Strike (with Castellan-led THDC)
DMS: 23.131
DMCC: 41.005
DRPG(S): 51.945
DRPG(A): 59.166

11/10/2011 05:59:01 pm

The list is essentially one big rock, with support elements surrounding it. It needs some work and it isn't nearly as balanced as the main "Fusion" list is. But, the idea does at least merit some discussion at the very least I think.

The main idea that you seem to be bringing up is whether or not its worth bringing such a large rock unit to the board. Do I think my opponent will charge forward to meet me with something vulnerable? Not likely. Most players won't give me easily accessible juicy targets, more like dual-melta squads to blow me up. lol! Nevertheless, I think I could still pull off a turn 3 charge. Especially if there is Nova Open type terrain on the board.

This is the type of unit that will dictate how my opponent deploys, moves, and reacts to the changing battlefield. Its threat range is actually larger than its true threat range. Much like what a Vindicator does. Are the easy to destroy? Yes. But there is something ingrained mentally about these types of units that makes people react to them. Some players react well, others very poorly. Its my job as a general to help ensure its the latter reaction.

However, if my opponent is coming my way with something juicy, its more likely that its something that will indeed kill me in close combat. Though, there isn't much out there that can easily deal with TH/SS terminators. But they do exist. If I can maul their dangerous CC-unit with mine (even at the loss of mine), I think I'm sitting in a better position with the rest of my forces, because I don't have to worry about my opponent's super unit any longer. But that is all hypothetical.

Moral of the story, the list still needs playtesting to know anything concrete. :D

@ Lucion

Well, again, the inspiration for part of it came from Darkwynn. I'm more than happy to bounce things off walls to see what works and doesn't. Doing so makes things interesting, plus it might give someone else an idea and they might figure out how to improve the build.

@ Algesan

Phorus Method = Nikephoros I'm assuming.

@ Devjon

I agree, the troops aren't fully optimal, but that is something that can be fixed. The core is the TH/SS Terminators, CML Terminators, and the Typhoons. Your thoughts on the troops could definitely be applicable and are definitely worth exploring. I'm thinking melta bunkers might work here too, but they don't have as much synergy as your idea.

11/11/2011 12:16:17 am

Algesan Nike's method is Phorus method for myself. Or more correctly Phoros method.

Is there not a solution for finding dead land raiders in turn 1 from shooting however?

Thats what I was keen on finding.

11/11/2011 12:27:12 am

Laeroth would it be worth having fellow bloggers blogs as a link somewhere? Or is it somewhere I cannot see.

I cannot remember the links.

11/11/2011 01:24:31 am

I think you guys are wasting points on troops. They are inefficent in every way compared to every body else. Reason why my list or concept works is that shooting at my troops serves you no purpose besides taking away a scoring unit.

There were plenty of games that I lost my TH/SS units and pretty much everything but still won the game because I pushed my opponent into a corner and my troops were on the objective hiding behind walls and scoring.

They have videos up at the Ustream Feast of Blades if you want to watch and you might get a better understanding of how my list worked.

11/11/2011 08:35:42 am

You got a point Darkwynn and a great history to support what you have to say in terms of raw tournament wins.

No matter how many points Bt spend on troops they are never going to be SW.

11/11/2011 04:58:25 pm

@ Darkwynn: Hmmm, my base expenditure on troops is 600, although they will get the leftover points in the end for PF & Neophytes which usually adds 50-90 points to the Troops cost. That includes their Drop Pods for the five squads.

The rest is in three Terminator squads (2xTHDC, 1xAssault), three twin LS-Typhoon squadrons and EC-AACNMTO.

Oh, that is how I've won a few games, by shooting up the scoring units and with AACNMTO, I can actually take some objectives, especially with the EC's squad. There is just something about whacking three Marines out of a MSU (or even a bigger squad after it has been pistoled) before they can swing that makes the fight go so much easier.

@Lucion: No, there is no way to tell what LR get killed on turn one. However, you can get a DLRPG, which is penetrating hits on Land Raiders in a game, but it isn't that big a deal normally and importantly, all of those lists can stun/kill a Land Raider fairly handily.

We may not be up to SW CC in this edition, but I can tell you that with AACNMTO, we can give some serious pain to the Puppies.

@Marshal Laeroth: That has been the purpose of my Assault Terminator squad with 3xTLC + 2xTH/SS. You simply must respect the threat.

11/11/2011 07:33:29 pm

@Lucion

Algesan isn't completely incorrect when he said that we couldn't, but we can find an average. Unfortunately, there's not a whole lot you can do with that information; maybe eventually, we'll see.

Basically, find the average killing shots on Land Raiders (shouldn't be anything too complex since you won't have to worry about things like Melta range) of all the guns which can fire more than 24" from where they begin (anything with a range plus movement greater than 24"). So, Vindicators couldn't be counted, but with PotMS they could. Lascannons, fast Multi-Meltas (technically, though you're only at the 1 die range so you'd only have half the chance of a Lascannon), Assault Cannons on vehicles, and of course Tank Hunting Missile Launchers.

I haven't run through the numbers yet, but I will try to get to that in the morning.

++++++

@Darkwynn

Who is this 'everybody else'? All I can think of is some other codex with absolutely no downsides, because there are lots of things that Crusader Squads are more efficient at than any of our other units. The only other Codices you can compare to are Space Marines, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Chaos Space Marines, and maybe a couple of others; you can't compare efficiency except to similar units; so we can compare to Tactical Squads or your regular Chaos Space Marine squads, but not Grey Hunters or any specialty Chaos Space Marines.

11/12/2011 12:52:45 am

@Devjon Good run through. Im just curious on whats going to happen the first turn.

For myself, melta is not the issue here. Any top list should be able to deal with a LRC twice over.

The LRC is there to get its contents in, which should survive a couple of turns then die. Thats the point of the LRC with its contents for myself.

How can I trade the LRC and its contents for time and position?

@Algesan My most exhilarating and painful experiences in 40k have been with BT templar terminators with a couple of LC in there.

11/12/2011 03:07:18 am

Lucion, you want to know how to use a LR + CC rock unit to gain space and time for the rest of your army? Check on Darkwynn's blog or chat with him about it for details.

The theory is that you charge forward, mainly trusting to your armor (but smoke may not hurt), deliver the goods to the enemies' door and then start using the LR as a tank for fire support. With a CC rock, the purpose is to rip the heart out of your enemy's combat capability before it dies. Oh, be setting up the rest of your army to lower the boom on the rest of his army.

At a higher level, what you are doing is seizing the initiative and imposing your will (battle plan) on the enemy to make him react to you. Channel him, pin him, force him out into a killing ground, etc. Plan what you are doing with the tools you have.

11/12/2011 12:20:57 pm

Devjon,

Obviously me telling you isn't going to change your mind in any way and I don't really have to prove anything here.

Our troops are just to expenaive for what they do compare to any other codex hands down. Your better off shifting points to other areas and using them as scoring. That is my view and you can see how it works on my games.

11/13/2011 05:14:06 pm

@Darkwynn

How are Crusader Squads worse than Tactical Squads, let alone much worse. You can get 90% out of a Crusader Squad compared to a Tactical squad, except you save something like 80 points...and you're saying that we're too expensive compared to Tactical Squads?

If this were purely opinion, such as claiming that Crusader Squads weren't good enough, I wouldn't harp on this. But as it is you're claiming something that is blatantly wrong unless I am really missing something about other Codices.

++++++

@Lucion

Sorry, but I never got around to those numbers and I don't think I'll be able to. I'm just out of energy.

11/14/2011 01:33:43 am

Fine, I will break down the math for you . For some reason though something tells me your not going to understand it and you want to view the aboslute number instead of the benefits outside them.

A BT squad with 9 guys and one power fist vs tactical squad

BT squad 9 guys: Mean number of kills 1.13
Standard deviation is .99
Powerfist ean kill is .63
Standard Deviation is.48

Tactical squad mean is .75 with a deviation of .83
Tactical power fist is .83 with a standard deviation of .70.

Now lets look at the curve which is the most important part of this:
BT squad:
Chance of killing zero: 30%
Chance of killing one: 38%
Chance of killing two:22%

BT PF killing zero:37%
BT PF killing one: 62.5%

So majority of the time your are killing anywhere from 0% to 3 people at best but more 60% of the time your going to kill one or two marines with your squad.

Now the Tactical squad:
chance of their 9 guys killing zero:45%
Chance of killing one. 37%
Chance of killing 2: 14%

Powerfist killing zero:34%
Powerfist killing one:49%
Powerfist killing two:18%

Majority of the time your killing zero to two again going aginst marines. If you start adding point upgrades like Frag and Krak because we are not equal to regular tactical marines or other items we start becoming more and more point efficent mainly because it deals around the Sergant with power fist attacks and such. We have reduced numbers so it doesn't make sense to invest in your crusader squads when it doesn't scale on normal attacks and you can't get a high qty of special attacks on the squad.
Your better off investing in points in other places that can take the benefit or use the points to accomplish something else for such a small efficent squad.

Going against a Assault squad with Assault Squad its the simliar scenario because special weapons out of the books have more attacks and shore up the numbers better. Which only makes us weaker against top tier armies with better saves and stronger against armies they don't have saves which is kind of pointless.

You an keep investing in points fo rCrusader Squads al day long and feel like they are the best thing since slice bread since they have perfered enemy but its a fallacy which a lot of people fall into.

Take it for what you will but if you don't want to beleive it fine doesn't bother me. You can't look at numbers like everyone wants to do and go oh here is the mean. You need to look at the binomial distrubtuion and understand the curve.

11/14/2011 02:16:49 pm

I'm going to leave my comments to a post that I'm working on. But to contribute to this discussion now, I'll say that I agree partially with both of you.

I agree with Darkwynn in the fact that we cannot spend huge amounts of points on our troops because they simply are sub-par compared to the newer versions.

However, I agree with Devjon is my believe that leaving the Crusader squads completely naked is a mistake when it takes minimal points to give them something, anything...which dramatically improves their footprint on the battle.

Darkwynn prefers the minimal, naked approach which leaves them essentially only as scoring units. The benefit is that they are relatively no threat to the opponent beyond that scoring ability. This also allows you to put those saved points elsewhere.

Devjon prefers to give his Crusader squads equipment which allows them to make an impact on the board, therefore increasing their threat to the opponent. Which in turn, causes your opponent to direct attention their way. And that spreads the ability of your enemy to effectively deal with all of your threats.

Did I sum it up correctly? Or am I missing something? I would like to have it right, so I can comment on it properly in my post. :)

11/15/2011 12:14:23 am

@Algesan Have you played any competitive tournament games with a LR or LRC then?

11/15/2011 01:23:46 am

@Devjon Hey Devjon. I hope things are not stressing you out like we talked about in September.
Looking back on my experience I can sum it up as what Linking park sing in "In The End" : "What it meant to be will eventually become a memory - I tried so hard and got so far but in the end it doesnt even matter"

11/15/2011 02:29:20 am

@Darkwynn

While I think it is fantastic that you are going beyond just the averages (and I really should consider it too), you still didn't make your point very well as I wasn't basing my point on numbers, absolute or true.

Of course, Tactical Squads are better than Crusader Squads in certain things, especially when you take advantage of Sergeants or start including advantages like Frags and Kraks or Bolt Pistols and Bolters. But the example you gave is really only one way of running the unit and it isn't playing to the strengths of the Crusader Squads.

Take a Heavy Weapon Crusader Squad in a Rhino (armed with a special weapon as well). 5 guys and with the Rhino the number of guys isn't such a big deal. A Tactical Squad, on the other hand, needs to take 10 guys before they can get a similar unit.

Now of course, Tactical squads are able to Combat Squad or get a Powerfist in there as well, they have better options for Razorbacks, they can take a Combi-Melta on the Sergeant and so on. But the Crusader Squad requires less investment for nearly the same ability, which means you can either take more of them or use those saved points elsewhere. And yet we're still horrible inefficient compared to Tactical Squads?

++++++

@Marshal Learoth

One thing is that while I don't agree with taking naked Crusader Squads I don't have the experience needed to definitively claim that that's wrong. I can argue it but I do see the advantages of making them less of a threat (and the saved points to an extent).

My real problem is the claim that Crusader Squads are 'hands down' inefficient compared to other Codices. It may be true of some, especially the newer ones, but they aren't worse than many and they are actually better than some of the units in our own Codex.

++++++

@Lucion

It's just a lot of things that have come up recently, especially when I need to do something but I put it off and put it off until the last minute when it does get really stressful.

And I'm sorry <assume apologetic humorous tone> but those lyrics don't help me at all, and if anything they would worsen problems for some. If you don't immediately see why then just apply them to anything good or helpful that you do, especially when you 'try so hard and got so far'.

It just reminds me too much of what you realize when you really consider ideas such as Atheism (I would explain further, but I don't want to give a bad impression unless someone wants to hear why).

11/15/2011 05:43:49 am

@Devjon

My apologies the explanation on lyrics were not clear. It would have been better if I had just said – Hey, relax, that stuff is not worth getting stressed over. You are never a failure and don’t let anybody tell you are. Keep persistent in finding what your good at.
Go ahead with your thoughts on Atheism, I have no issue.

Finally If you tend to procrastinate, good, because such patience is needed at times. When you
wait, you will see situations change before your eyes.

11/16/2011 04:47:46 am

Sorry, but I don't like that message either because it assumes that it is impossible for anyone to be a failure. However, I understand your intentions so thank you.

I'm still not going to get into it unless someone wants to hear, partially because one does not always speak for the many (although I'm not sure how many are actually still reading these comments, they have been going on for a while) and partially because this is not the place to break into such topics spontaneously.

I have to disagree with you about procrastination. While not rushing things is good and you often should wait a while to see how things are going to turn out, that's not what I think of as procrastination. What I think of is partially just putting things off for no good reason ('I don't feel like it' or 'I'll do it in a little while') but it could also be this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4P785j15Tzk

And neither of those seem at all beneficial. When you schedule something that you need to get done you should do it when you have it scheduled, not look for other things to do.

While I really do appreciate you support it really comes down to pushing myself to do what I need to do when I need to do it. And the older I get the more I realize that I can't do this on my own.

11/16/2011 05:47:58 am

@Devjon Great little comic vid. The kind of stuff we are obliged to do is usually not very moving for us. I meant procrastination as a form of patience, gathering information, yet when you see an
opening or opportunity too good to pass up, you will naturally move.

Good luck with what your doing. Recently we changed from painting models to focusing on charity work. Before this change, I couldnt paint. I found it so.. obligatory.. Now I am painting again because something in me - is in a different place.

11/16/2011 10:56:30 am

Devjon,

First I want to say thank you for at least keeping this discussion peaceful :).

If you look at your example and you say you want to take the 6 man las cannon plasma gun squad and put it in a rhino.

That is 151 points for that squad.Which gives you in reality one str 9 shot that is static and one str 7 shot at 24 that is static. I look at that and see a poor investment in points at the current 5th edition meta. Fire power is changing to be come more mobile and you need to be able to move and line up your shots.

Sadly that unit doesn't do it. If you cut the Rhino, lascannon and plasma gun, it's 71 points. That gets you a Typhoon at that cost which gives you two str 8 shots and three heavy bolter shots. That is a steal. Now you could argue durability but in reality they are similar in durability.

Lareoth,

I view that Crusader squads are never a threat in any capacity. If they are not a threat in a 10 man close combat assault squad with a rhino then why ma I going to waste points on it?

The math doesn't work out and when your building a list you can invest points in other places which makes it hard for your opponent. Does he shoot down the big scary nasty things or does he shoot your troops that he really can't get too? Your forcing your opponent to make choices which they don't want to make.

11/17/2011 12:38:05 am

@Laeroth. Could rhinos be switched for drop pods for an alternative. This compensates for the higher costs.

@Darkwynn.

BT initiates can be tweaked out, and we can make some interesting blends with the squad.

But are they strong enough to be competitive vs blood angels and space wolves how people are taking them now a days?

I think that is what Nick is getting is you must have enough strength to be competitive, otherwise don't show up at
all.

11/17/2011 02:23:14 am

@Lucion: Not yet, but I've had to deal with them several times. That is one of those things I'm probably not going to bother with until I'm bored enough to build some posterboard or Lego ones. Then I have a nifty little triple LRC list with Helbrecht leading a command squad, Grimaldus & the EC leading Crusader squads.

@Darkwynn: Where is your list with the LR? The one on Darkwynn's corner doesn't seem to be the one we are discussing (and I think the Marshal is overpriced).

I'm mostly in agreement with you on the Crusader squads, which is why most of them get Bolters & a Meltagun and I stuff the five Initiates in a Drop Pod. I've got better places to spend points than on PF & PW in Crusaders, nice as it would be sometimes. I've thought about adding a ML for some long range shooting for the price of a Neophyte, but haven't gone that way yet and it would just be more plinking.

Using the 1 Troop/500 points rule when I build lists, but I bump it by 1 Troop unit to allow me an extra blocking unit (Pod) + suicide melta, 120 points each.

The EC usually gets a PF in his squad and whatever stray Neophytes my points leave over. With AACNMTO, he is usually good enough by himself to make the squad acceptable bubblewrap and medium weight CC, although I've dropped him for objective claiming also.

11/17/2011 06:10:10 am

@Algesan I havent either Algesan. It wont stop me trying though. The first time I took a LRC it got hit by an IG las cannon first turn, knocked out. I lost. I turned up the next week with Nob Bikers and rolled him though :)

11/17/2011 12:11:07 pm

@Darkwynn

No, I'm actually a horrible person out to make your life miserable; this is just a vast convoluted ploy attempting to ruin you internet face by contrasting your short-tempered ranting with my own patient, reasonable arguments. So why are you so insistent on not following my plan?! ;) [/sarcasm]

While you could get another Typhoon by dropping all those upgrades, and a Typhoon is indeed more useful, I would assume that you've already taken three Typhoons and adding a fourth means that two of them are in a Squadron which really hurts them and after the first three you aren't gaining nearly as much benefit from Typhoons. Plus with the Rhino the Crusader Squad has the option of moving forward to claim/contest an objective and, should your opponent want to kill it, has the protection of the Rhino before anything can be done to them. And you've got weapon options to choose, such as Multi-Meltas, which do make Crusader Squads a threat (nearly as much as Tactical Squads for a much lower price).

You're mention of Typhoons leads into something else though. While I agree that Crusader Squads aren't as efficient as other units in our codex (especially things like Typhoons) that's not a problem with Crusader Squads, that's a problem with Troop Choices in general and spending only the minimal number of points on them has less to do with Crusader Squads specifically.

Compared to other codices (in general, not specific ones) we have good troop choices. we aren't as good as the newer ones so much perhaps, but ours are relatively cheap, durable, and easily capable of granting some benefit towards killing your opponent (again, giving them a Heavy Weapon, Special Weapon, and Rhino doesn't have a standing compared to other similar troops even if it does have some trouble when comparing it to other units in our Codex).

Comparing them to other units in our codex...well that comes down to deciding if you want to spend those points elsewhere (though I'm sure that I could find a way to definitively say that Crusader Squads are better than some, but those units wouldn't be ones considered very good in the first place), or take advantage of the opportunity that simply already having a Crusader Squad gives you. I think it's like focusing on Assault or Shooting; I'm sure that one is better than the other even if they both work but it isn't easy to demonstrate which one is better.

11/18/2011 04:06:45 am

Gah! Just realized that I explained my second paragraph badly (the one about Typhoons).

What I mean is that, assuming you already have three Typhoons, comparing a Typhoon to a Rhino+Lascannon+Plasma Gun on a Crusader Squad can be broken down. The Typhoon option gives you 2 S8 shots compared to 1 S9 shot and three S5 shots compared to a shorter range S7 shot. In the backfield, the shorter range of the S7 is just insurance, and while S9 has the advantage of being able to actually kill super heavy armor (AV14 especially, and AV13 you don't really want to be shooting at with S8 still) but the Typhoon does have multiple shots which is always a good thing. So in offensive power the Typhoon is better.

But the Rhino gives the Crusader Squad options as well as greater survivability, the Lascannon lets them take some part in the battle (or at least the chance to), and the Plasma Gun gives them some insurance so that it is less likely that you will have to keep a unit back with it to protect it from Deep-strikers or Outflankers allowing the Crusader Squad to more reliably do its job.

Now, you could get into all sorts of situations where that fourth Typhoon is a better option (I reckon that they all have to do with the upgrades for the Crusader Squad not becoming an issue), but it comes down almost to personal preference of considering those 70-80 points a good investment in reliability or if the extra firepower (for weaker durability) is a better option. My personal preference (well, aside from my preference to have all units be as similar as possible, within reason) is to not take squadrons of Typhoons, and generally that Heavy Bolter (the main tipping point when comparing the two) isn't enough to justify not having options with my Crusader Squad.

Alright, sorry for any inconvenience, my last post is more important than this one but I did want to clarify that point. And who knows? Maybe this explains my position better than before.

11/19/2011 04:25:00 am

@Laeroth I wanted to add the the moral of the story you brought up with a quote. Time will tell I suppose.

Roosevelt said, “It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face in marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”

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