Nova Open 2012 List...?

7/21/2012

Continuing the multiple post day, let's get this one out of the way too. Its going to be shorter, as its basically me posting up a list. For a long time I was considering this list as the one I wanted to go with at Nova Open, but after thinking about it for a while, I didn't feel "safe" enough. One very aggressive Troop unit, that would likely end up dying in the end. I also had a sit and chill shooty Crusader squad, and two Plasma Vet squads who advanced forward. Would it be enough? I decided that it wouldn't be, at least at Nova. My troops were too "fragile".

In the process of updating my 5th Edition lists, I came across my Templarbubble list. Its always been a personal favorite of mine, because it gave me an effective element of close combat while maintaining the needed shooting portions of the list. It even pulled in a .500 record at Nova Open 2011 when 200ponies ran a version of it with Grimaldus. That's pretty impressive after having very minimal play-testing with the list and learning on the fly. I'm confident that I could have done just as well, and possibly better, since I had experience with the list.

Let me tell you, its really difficult trying to save the core of a list and update it to the new edition. Ultimately, it simply wasn't possible with this particular army. The changes brought in 6th Edition simply made parts of my previous list obsolete. Adapt and overcome! Because the list already featured a Chaplain, I didn't take much more of a "points" tax for the "Warlord". But he did need some more wargear to making him worthwhile. For those that don't remember the older list, you can find it here. It was built around trying to manipulate "Abhor the Witch" and "Litanies of Hate" for TH/SS Terminators. And let me tell you, it worked well in 5th Edition. With 6th Edition, and even MORE psykers, it'll work even better.

After playing around with different styles and builds, I decided that the army would be better suited with allies. The original combo that I considered to synergize with my already numerous Terminator count, was Belial and two Deathwing troops. And honesty? I probably would have kept the list if I felt I could have dealt with flyers effectively. But since Dark Angels don't have access to flyers themselves, the list was discarded. Fortifications weren't an option either, as I didn't have any stationary shooty squads in the list. So I went with old reliable and used the core IG ally army that I've used in a few of my lists now. Below is the result of that mix.

HQ:
* Master of Sanctity {Warlord} w/ Thunder Hammer, Crozius Arcanum, Terminator Armor, and Tank Hunters; 1 Terminator Command Squad Sword Brethren w/ Storm Bolter, Power Fist, and Tank-Hunters; 2 Sword Brethren w/ Cyclone Missile Launchers, Storm Bolters, Power Fists, and Tank-Hunters; 1 Sergeant w/ Power Sword, Storm Shield, and Tank-Hunters. [405]
* Emperor's Champion w/ Black Sword, Bolt Pistol, Armor of Faith, and the Vow: "Abhor the Witch, Destroy the Witch." [110]
* Company Command Squad {IG Allies}: 4 Veterans w/ 3 Meltaguns, 1 Lasgun, and Close Combat Weapons; 1 Company Commander w/ Laspistol, Close Combat Weapon, Refractor Field, and Frag Grenades. Mounted in a Chimera w/ Multi-Laser and Heavy Flamer. [135]

Elites:
* Sword Brethren Terminators: 7 Assault Terminators w/ Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields. [280]

Troops:
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Multi-Melta. Mounted in a Rhino w/ Smoke Launchers and Searchlight. [150]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Multi-Melta. Mounted in a Rhino w/ Smoke Launchers and Searchlight. [150]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Multi-Melta. Mounted in a Rhino w/ Smoke Launchers and Searchlight. [150]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Multi-Melta. Mounted in a Rhino w/ Smoke Launchers and Searchlight. [150]
* Veteran Squad {IG Allies}: 9 Veterans w/ 3 Plasmaguns, 6 Lasguns, 9 Close Combat Weapons, and Krak & Frag Grenades; 1 Veteran Sergeant w/ Laspistol, Close Combat Weapon, and Krak & Frag Grenades. Mounted in a Chimera w/ Multi-Laser and Heavy Bolter. [170]
* Veteran Squad {IG Allies}: 9 Veterans w/ 3 Plasmaguns, 6 Lasguns, 9 Close Combat Weapons, and Krak & Frag Grenades; 1 Veteran Sergeant w/ Laspistol, Close Combat Weapon, and Krak & Frag Grenades. Mounted in a Chimera w/ Multi-Laser and Heavy Bolter. [170]

Fast Attack:
* Vendetta {IG Allies} w/ 3 TL-Lascannons and Extra Armor. [130]

Total Points: [2000]

I had my six troops and capturing quarters/objectives would likely not give me any issues. The key point of this list was mid-field control and vehicle saturation. I was putting 7 transports on the board, with a Vendetta for anti-flyer/anti-tank duties. Each of those transports packed units with shooting deadly to both vehicles and elite infantry. Plasma is going to be huge this edition, in my opinion, and I have lots of it in this list. But I didn't sacrifice my melta to get it. However, I did have to cut down on the number of my CML-terminator squads to one to fit the allies in. And if you want to get technical, I don't have any. Its now a Terminator Command squad, led by a nasty CC-oriented Master of Sanctity. He gives that squad durability, as well as CC-prowess should they be needed there. Meanwhile, they are blasting away as normal at enemy vehicles.

The Emperor's Champion would lead the 7 TH/SS terminators and act as their "Character" in battle, challenging anyone who came out of the wood-work. Obviously, this squad isn't as huge as the previous version, but now we have a wider array of threats for your opponent to deal with. All of them creating huge targeting issues. Do you shoot the Terminators? The Terminator Command squad? The huge pile of troops? The flyer? Something for every type of opponent I'd be likely to face.

But then I thought, I think I can do this a little bit better. What harm could come of adding even more threats to my list? To add to that, I felt I was a little light on my anti-horde weaponry. So seeing that I already had IG as my allies, a Manticore was at the top of my list of things to grab. With the changes to barrages/blasts, these things are wickedly nasty. They are a bit expensive, but worth their points. They would allow me to shoot at those annoying squads hiding behind Nova's terrain, blast hordes off the board, or possibly kill masses of vehicles in a single barrage. I'm not sure if you've ever faced Manticores before, but they are scary. Very scary. So that brought me to this following list.

HQ:
* Master of Sanctity {Warlord} w/ Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield, Crozius Arcanum, Terminator Armor, and Tank Hunters; 1 Terminator Command Squad Sword Brethren w/ Storm Bolter, Power Fist, and Tank-Hunters; 2 Sword Brethren w/ Cyclone Missile Launchers, Storm Bolters, Power Fists, and Tank-Hunters; 1 Sergeant w/ Power Sword, Storm Bolter, and Tank-Hunters. [405]
* Emperor's Champion w/ Black Sword, Bolt Pistol, Armor of Faith, and the Vow: "Abhor the Witch, Destroy the Witch." [110]
* Company Command Squad {IG Allies}: 4 Veterans w/ 3 Meltaguns, 1 Lasgun, and Close Combat Weapons; 1 Company Commander w/ Laspistol, Close Combat Weapon, Refractor Field, and Frag Grenades. Mounted in a Chimera w/ Multi-Laser and Heavy Flamer. [135]

Elites:
* Sword Brethren Terminators: 7 Assault Terminators w/ 4 Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields & 3 Pairs of Lightning Claws. [280]

Troops:
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolt Pistols and CCWs, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Multi-Melta. Mounted in a Rhino w/ Searchlights. [147]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolt Pistols and CCWs, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Multi-Melta. Mounted in a Rhino w/ Searchlights. [147]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolt Pistols and CCWs, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Multi-Melta. Mounted in a Rhino. [146]
* Veteran Squad {IG Allies}: 9 Veterans w/ 3 Plasmaguns, 6 Lasguns, 9 Close Combat Weapons, and Krak & Frag Grenades; 1 Veteran Sergeant w/ Laspistol, Close Combat Weapon, and Krak & Frag Grenades. Mounted in a Chimera w/ Multi-Laser and Heavy Flamer. [170]
* Veteran Squad {IG Allies}: 9 Veterans w/ 3 Plasmaguns, 6 Lasguns, 9 Close Combat Weapons, and Krak & Frag Grenades; 1 Veteran Sergeant w/ Laspistol, Close Combat Weapon, and Krak & Frag Grenades. Mounted in a Chimera w/ Multi-Laser and Heavy Flamer. [170]

Fast Attack:
* Vendetta {IG Allies} w/ 3 TL-Lascannons and Extra Armor. [130]

Heavy Support:
* Manticore {IG Allies} w/ Storm Eagle Rockets, Heavy Bolter, Searchlight, and Smoke Launchers. [160]

Total Points: [2000]

Honestly? I like this version quite a bit more. I still have 5 troop squads, which should be more than enough for my needs. I didn't need more than 4 in my games last year at Nova, but I they would have given more tactical flexibility. I don't have 6, but its a nice compromise. Weighting the pros and cons, I think the Manticore adds more to the list than a MM bunker squad does. It just gives me that much more "Oomph" right from the get-go.

The list has 4 Missile Launchers (Tank Hunters), 3 TL-Lascannons, 3 Multi-Lasers, 3 Multi-Meltas, 1 set of Storm Eagle Rockets, 3 Meltaguns, 9 Plasmaguns, and 3 Heavy Bolters. Then there is one true CC-dedicated unit in my TH/SS Terminators, but the Terminator Command squad can pull it off nearly as well. Plus, I have reasonable psyker protection for my BT units with the "Abhor the Witch" vow. Decent amounts of AT, lots of AI, and enough CC-units to do damage. Thoughts?

10 Comments

waterbat12 link

7/21/2012 10:38:33 am

I might have removed a terminator and added dozer blades to all the vehicles considering the terrain at nova though,and with the extra points add another meltagun to the command squad. Also I might be a little worried that the vendetta would get picked out of the sky fairly easily as it is your only flyer or be ignored as the flyer doesn't present that much of a threat in my opinion. Overall I think the list is pretty awesome...but I think the same about any list with assault termies haha!

Algesan link

7/21/2012 03:31:34 pm

Your list and mine share a weakness vs. the ongoing reserves trick of bringing a flyer transport on zooming in movement then going flat out in the shooting phase to exit the map. The only cure for those currently are fortifications. OTOH, those end up off the table for all practical purposes until they drop the troops on turn 5.

You also only have 518 points in scoring units for quarters, at least for the current rules and I'm not sure how MVB is going to adjust that if he is. You have a bit more in denial units (595 points), but again, it may vary on how that plays out. I'm running at 925/335 myself for core units with only four troop choices, but three of those are very hard to kill. Keep an eye on how MVB deals with that in the next week because right now the penalty for quarters is real heavily biased towards lots of points in hard to kill troops. Right now if we had a blood bath in the middle and remnant units scattered around, you'd have a slight edge at objective grabbing (but your squads are more fragile), but I could probably get quarters.

On to list quibbling: I like giving the Terminator Sgt a SS. One option would be to downgrade from MoS to Reclusiarch, all it costs is 1W & 1Ld. Another would be to let the MoS survive on his Rosarius and using LoS! to pass ID wounds to the Sgt to take on the Storm Shield. Also you could give him an axe and let him handle the challenge duties until he falls.

I agree with waterbat12 about the dozer blades, but meh, six of one, half dozen of the other, 1 in 6 is still not bad odds and it is worth it to make it 1 in 36. You are going to need all those Terminators to walk all the way across the field. You need as many on the field as you can field...

IMO, the psychic defense part of Abhor is going to be wasted against players with any sense. Strong trend even just vs Deny is to simply go with buffs primarily. I saw that when playing with Sisters (Abhor is simply C:WH Sisters anti-psyker defense exactly with a bonus d6" movement) when I first started with 40k: "Oh, you have that kind of psychic defense? Okay, I'll give my guys a buff that will help kill you rather than going hit or miss against your defense." I actually haven't had a single psychic attack against me in any of my games of 6th so far, BT or Necron. Plenty of rerolling misses against me, dealing with extra invulnerable saves, etc. going on though.

Marshal Laeroth (Admin) link

7/21/2012 03:53:32 pm

Aye, I also thought about Quarters and how I'd handle them. The way it looks, at least preliminarily, is that Mike is going to go with allowing vehicles (except Flyers) to claim quarters as well. If he doesn't go that route, I still think I'll be okay so long as I make effective use of my denial units. It will make killing scoring units very important, which is one of the reasons I have lots of Plasma and I brought in the Manticore.

The SS is primarily an anesthetic thing for me. I prefer to have the better save for him, but in the role he's currently being fielded in, its not necessary. I'll playtest it with the Sgt using the SS. I haven't decided which way I'm going on the power weapon though. Do I risk surviving all the way to I1 to strike? Or do I help matters a little bit by killing a few at AP3 before the power fists get to go? Again, playtesting. Magnets are going to be my friend, for sure. :)

Unfortunately, there isn't a whole lot you can do against they flyer trick other than trying to kill those troops at the end. I don't even think Fortifications will help much to be honest with you.

Dozer blades would be really nice, especially with Nova's terrain...but I'd be looking at an extra 60 points for it. As you mentioned, the only real place to take the points from is the walking terminators. And I can't really lose many more of them without affecting their effectiveness. Ultimately, I'm just going to have to bite the bullet and risk it.

The psychic defense portion of "Abhor" as you described it, is just fine with me. We could never deny self-buffs before, so I'm not worried about those. I can win games with those. What I do worry about is the things that hurt/de-buff me (e.g. Doom, Null Zone, Living Lightning, Blood Lance, etc). And there is quite a few of them besides. If my opponent is afraid of my "Abhor" save and opts to go for self-buffs instead, that is even better. It acts as a deterrent, for next to no cost. In that case, "Abhor" went from a 44% chance of shutting down offensive spells to a 100% chance. I'll take it.

MVB link

7/21/2012 04:49:28 pm

You know, Grand Strategy works on Allied units in your army (Friendly or not). If you want to bolster the value of your scoring units, there's nothing that prevents you taking something like a Draigo unit and applying the Scoring grand strat to your expensive, big honking terminator units (just an example).

Also, if you are going with gunboat vets, at least take an Autocannon with them ... it's affordable, you can take it in addition to the plasmaguns, and it's a little extra anti-vehicle/flyer fire if you're pushed to that, snap fire be damned.

7/21/2012 05:15:32 pm

Hmmm...to be completely honest with you, I totally forgot that the Vets could take Heavy Weapon teams. I'll have to take a look at adding a couple Autocannons to bolster my slightly lacking long range AT. Then again, I face the same problem as with the Dozer Blades...not many places to take the points from.

I could remove a terminator and then add dozer blades to a couple of the Chimera's/all of the Rhinos...but then I am getting in very risky territory of making the "bubble" not as effective and/or durable. Or I could remove the SS from the Terminator Command squad all together, as well as downgrading the TH to a power fist. That one doesn't make me all that enthusiastic, but I'd probably prefer it to the former option.

Thoughts?

Philbrecht

8/26/2012 11:15:27 pm

Did you consider taking 2 Hydras? You get 2 of them for 150p and that gives you 4 TL autocannons and 2 heavy bolters(or flamers). You get your mandatory AA and they've got Intercept so are very usefull against light vehicles or blasting bike spams back to the carrying bag.
If you take out the Vendetta it gives your opponent 2 threats instead of 1.
Hydras are IG codex but maybe Nova doesn't allow FW models?
Anyways, I'm painting mine in Steel Legion colours as we speak! :) Keep up the good work here Laeroth!

MarshalPyr

7/21/2012 05:16:31 pm

...tbh, i've kinda lost faith in taking allies for Troops:

our Troops suck, yes, but IMHO troops suck anyways, with the possible exception of Bikes, Grey Hunters. and ofc Terminators(for those that get them).

i'd rather spend 550- 600 pts for Troops (like, a 20-man squad to carry the champion, and two lasplas Rhino squads) and spend the 1400 rest points on stuff that will actualy put hurt on my opponent and thus prevent him from focusing on my Troops, including any possible allies.

1. i like the shooty terminators squads, but imho they're only worth it as command squads now. they are a good unit, but NOT as powerful as TH/SS generaly. the only reason they were so badass in 5th is a meta thing- you were desperate for as much antitank as possible.

2. Attack Bikes are the new Landspeeders.
3. Vindicators rule. I own none, but i find myself proxying in my lists many times, so i'll buy a couple. they are just such a great toolbox to troubleshoot against so many armies.they are even better with Abhor, gets them closer to position.
4. for Allies, i want to play with allies, even for fluff reasons, but for BT i dunno how smart that is. we will be forced to take THREE ICs... not very viable imho, even in 6th. maybe Guard with dirt-cheap troop without chimera, and take a couple of Vendettas?

7/22/2012 03:29:22 pm

The problem we are facing is that for NOVA scoring units are critical and with 6th Edition, we now have to worry about points as well as number of units. I think we are only going to face one primary KP scenario, or maybe none, but otherwise we are going to have to deal with objectives and/or table quarters.

I did think about going with a low troop cost, high killy list...but I'd find myself stuck in "kill them all" mode by needing to table my opponent or lose on victory conditions. Not a bad idea for Black Templar in theory, but I'll not I lost advancement to round two of 'Ard Boyz because I didn't keep my eye on the prize and played "kill them all" instead of securing objectives.

7/24/2012 06:25:30 am

...well, i understand that, but frankly thats the least of my concerns. the Emperor's Champion being nerfed to a "troop killer that is forced to be on challenges with things he cant wound" is my concern. the second HQ being mandatory and severely limiting our options for allies is my concern.

the Troops section is not my concern. we have sucked for a LONG time there, we're used to it. but frankly, i think the limitations the latest FAQ has put on us, regarding ICs and ramifications to using allies, lack of Drop Pods legality, nerfs to our shooty options due to the meta(5-man lasplas dying horribly due to being unable to hide in boxes, shooty terminators vulnerable to a plasmaspam edition without a 3++ inv) or by FAQ (typhoons back to prevous suck), ...

...all in all, i think the lack of true options will take its toll. its easy to dinf ways to compete this early, but as the meta shifts, with severe limitations to what we must/cant use, adn no new codex on the horizon, i predict bad stuff.

Thomas

8/4/2012 12:36:22 am

Hey just found this, with should help you against flyers on warseer forums:
"I'd swear that I read somewhere in the rulesbook that a flyer can't leave the table in the same turn it enters, but I can't find it now and its turning me crazy, because if they can do that then only Interception weapons will be able to even shoot them."

reply:

"p.80, second column, second paragraph of the "Flyers" section. Roughly halfway through the paragraph"

So you should be able to use r vendetta nicely to get flyers that come in for an attack run

Nova Open 2012 List...?

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